Talk:Planar Blade (3.5e Class)

Ratings

 * I feel like I have almost the opposite opinion now. That it is bad (because it's handing out lots and lots of little details to keep track of, and immunities are actually quite lame, especially but not only when the person planning encounters knows which ones you have), but the balance isn't too big a deal because even if you pick Attunements at random you'll get enough of them to get something good. --Foxwarrior (talk) 07:12, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Even still, you should re-write it until there's fewer fiddly bits (like illiteracy) and a bit more meaningful and obvious choice (perhaps make it a sphereusing class, or something similar?) I'm still keeping it at oppose, but it's not a "fuck you this is awful" oppose, it's "this really needs to be rewritten". --Fluffykittens (talk) 18:38, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

I suppose you're going to make me reread my class carefully, rather than helpfully pointing out the outliers. --Foxwarrior (talk) 19:35, 17 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Well there this one ability that make you take two turn a turn, it can be taken at level 10th. Compared to the terrific electricity... My main complaint about this class is that you get capstone-like ability at level 10th. This is bad for the game. --Leziad (talk) 20:52, 17 January 2013 (UTC)


 * I created an account specifically to reply to this post, so forgive any bad formatting on my part. Not only is there no internal balance, but the class itself is excessively powerful. At every level you are effectively granting the character a new FEAT and a new SCHOOL to gain access to, no class gets anything like this.
 * For example, let's look at the Basic fire attunement skill. There is a stance in the Book of Nine Swords (Which is all ready considered by many players to be overpowered)that allows a similar ability. It's only granted once per ENCOUNTER not round and you have to waste a stance to do it, there is also feat that grants a similar ability once per ENCOUNTER,not per round. Sure 2 damage doesn't seem like a lot. But at level 1 that gives you the ability to automatically bypass many creatures of a similar rating's DR. Or if you were to use the Unearthed Arcana armor variant allowing armor to act as DR you would automatically be able to bypass the DR of many enemies. That is incredibly terrifying.
 * The rules of D&D allow you to gain a new feat once every 3 levels, you are granting a feat once every level. In other words, let's presume I'm playing a human and I've been allowed to take a flaw to gain a feat. At first level I might have 3 Feats, by Sixth Level I can expect to have 5 feats.
 * In comparison a human Planar Blade under the same conditions would have 4 feats by level 1 and 14 feats by level 6. In addition, there is no limitation by following a feat progression- like many character would have to go through. That is in no way balanced.  Daemonswolf (talk) 19:49, 6 February 2013 (UTC)


 * You might want to check out our Balance Ranges--many of the things you mentioned are in the High range, while this class is considered Very High and thus is balanced around a different center. --Ghostwheel (talk) 22:33, 6 February 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't really think the claim that it's overpowered is very well-grounded. Echoing what Ghosty said, it's listed as a Very High level class, and that comes with the general assumption that it's meant to be played in games with wizards and other properly optimized characters. I also don't see where the "one feat or school per level" business is coming from; you just get a new attunement (i.e. access to a new set of abilities) every other level and further progression in previous attunements at every other level. This scales pretty similar to casters. It never says anything about gaining actual feats as per the existing connotation of the word in D&D.
 * As for the attunements themselves, the basics together allow you to do a fair amount of blasting damage by using all of them together (I think as written you are allowed to do this) but nothing so amazingly over the top that it couldn't be negated by creatures with elemental resistance. And since those free action abilities are limited to once per combat round, you can't even spam them twice per round with the extra turn for the cold attunement, which thusly boils down to an extra move action. I don't really find that to be a huge deal at level 10, and seems pretty in line with auto-melting weapons that attack you (Acid) and increased threat range (Slashing) to name a few. - TG Cid (talk) 22:44, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Detailed Breakdown
Okay, it's been a while since I thought about anything in great depth, so I'll try not hurt myself and in turn you ignore anything I say that's profoundly stupid.

My biggest beef with this class is the outright, early, and plentiful presentation of immunities, both because I think resistances would be better (can be beaten, abilities can exist to penetrate it or reduce it's effectiveness, et cetera) and because it adds up to something ungodly pretty quickly, even for Very High level, in my opinion. However, to the class:

becoming undead and the like too, but at least F&K put some effort into mitigating all the bonuses that usually means, and I'm not so aware of SRD options, which again makes me a little hesitant over this, but it's hardly a kiss of death balance-wise.
 * General Stuff
 * Under alignment, the second sentence seems intended to convey idea that alignment doesn't really matter, but I think it's superfluous, at least with the calling out of a specific alignment. If you want to mention that the planar blade can acquire various and contradictory subtypes regardless of alignment, I'd come out and say that, without giving one example the might be misconstrued by a reader.
 * Full BAB, naturally, and all good saves, which I don't really have a problem with given all good is necessary to compete and most save revamps work on reducing the gap between good and bad saves. Despite this, it does throw it a bit out of whack with some other material written for this level, though conversely other material makes the same acknowledgement (Tome Barbarian). No real complaints, I suppose.
 * For skill points, I find it odd that it's only 4 + Int without Tome of Prowess, given the limitations that is likely to offer with how much you've been encouraging dumping Intelligence, while the Tome of Prowess one ensures a balance (which I believe is part of what ToP is all about, IIRC, but the contrast still strikes me as odd). The bonuses offered by some of the attunements sort of justify this, but not entirely.
 * Standard proficiency set for a melee-type, and I like that you offer Strength or Dex
 * Fire
 * Doubling melee damage seems a questionable choice -- it's possible it won't matter as Shock Trooper and stuff come into play and you're raping face anyway, but I'm not sure it's necessary to be competitive, and it may be going a tad beyond that -- further analysis needed.
 * Not a whole lot of combat application for Terrific unless you could teleport to burning people, but I like the potential utility // could you go to the Plane of Fire?
 * Cold
 * Paralysis is way better than the cone of fire at level 4, and better than anything most wizards have bar glitterdust or color spray, but conceded as to those. Unlimited uses vs. 15 minute workday argument sort of come into play, but definitely a single-target save or deepthroat.
 * Love the Great power, nice zone control, arguably a lot better than Fire, again.
 * You can still charge out of the Terrific option in your second turn (unsure if intentional or not, which gives mostly the same effect as Fire's Great. I also wonder about things that recharge on your turn or only last one turn or things that play out in rounds. Some effects (homebrew primarily, it seems) state an effect is active until a creature's next turn, but this somewhat rains of the parade of said abilities. Not strictly bad, but it might require some interpretation on the part of the DM.
 * Electricity
 * I'm trying to think if there's anything particularly nasty one could do with the place swapping, but most of what I can think of involves accrued immunities (or flight). Might want a clause as to how that would play out (instantaneously vs. in the creature's next turn -- one would assume the former, but established rules might lead to the inference of the latter), but I suppose it's your call.
 * Acid
 * None of the skill checks are opposed, so I'm okay with this.
 * Wondering if Great differentiates friend from foe? "Every" and "target" seem potentially contradictory if I said allies weren't targets, and it also isn't consistent with other abilities which mention every creature, though I concede this may have been done to prevent damage to the terrain/items?
 * Terrific versus magical items -- how does this play out? What about natural weapons? I feel a save might be in order here. Everyone hates mordenkainen's disjunction for said reason. I guess you're mostly not doing this to players, but there's no reason there couldn't be an NPC planar blade.
 * Sonic
 * Basic -- no range limitation? Across the world? Across planes?
 * I'm assuming 'every creature in close range' does apply to allies, but not to the planar blade. Correct? If not it only matters for two levels, but it also gives Sonic (and Acid, if it works similarly with the Basic and Great) unlimited self healing, where the other elements (thus far) do not have this. I have no issues with receiving said ability come level 8 (or even earlier), but clarity would be nice.
 * Immunity to sonic damage is naturally worse than the more common energy types, though dealing a rarer damage type perhaps offsets this.
 * Twice character level to Intimidate and Diplomacy is obviously more suspect to me than the skills from Acid. Diplomancy, obviously, Intimidate has similar out of combat functions, if more temporary. There's also potentially Tome of Battle ramifications (White Raven, and homebrew/homebrew adjustment to make discipline key of Intimidate), but I'm not sure how many White Raven maneuvers actually have Diplo rolls, if any, so it's possible this concern is without real foundation. I guess you probably aren't worried about too many OP maneuvers at very high balance as well.
 * Again, dunno if Terrific also targets the planar blade.
 * Negative
 * I'm presuming one would use Strength/Dexterity for turning check as well, though being stated as such (or to the contrary) would be nice. Turning isn't particularly great as written, but okay, none of other minors are amazing.
 * The Great here is pretty good… again targeting will limit some uses of it, but otherwise it's very nice -- pairs nicely with the SoD peoples and I'd argue more useful than most of the damage-oriented abilities, but it's not too crazy.
 * Terrific is mad nice. I admit much of it won't come up except on occasion, but when it does, those things are often deal breakers for the monsters using them. I suppose at 10 other people are
 * Positive
 * Kind of underwhelming compared to some of the others. Reincarnation and the temporary HP are aight. Reincarnation is interesting, I guess, but the rest is kind of eh.
 * Force'
 * Straight numerical boosters, which you avoided thus far, but I suppose it only matters if your Constitution modifier beats your ring of protection'', but it probably will, at least at lower levels. It has the potential to be bigger, but the need for Strength/Dexterity somewhat mitigates this concern.
 * Dunno if force damage has any special properties I'm forgetting aside from not being normal damage. The ghost touch bit seems to cover most of the hitting undead, but I suppose it can be useful for converting the elemental options.
 * Infinite healing plainly available here -- stabbing yourself, magic missile of self, but again, not a big concern, just something that might set force apart depending on how things are read on the previous options.
 * Change
 * Again Hide and Shadow Hand, and again rebuttals against said arguments.
 * I'm a little fuzzy on the regeneration bit. Regeneration, per the entry, only applies to non-lethal damage. If no damage type becomes non-lethal, nothing regenerates. The beheading bit is also confusing. I assume you mean the head regrows in one round (presumably the creature's next turn), but I'd also generally assume a dead creature's regeneration no longer applies once dead for real.
 * Slashing
 * I find immunity to slashing damage to be more relevant that lots of the elemental types, though I suppose in their own ways each bones a particular set of creatures really badly. The SRD segment on natural weapons is not particularly helpful in this regard, stating that things deal multiple types of damage. How the damage is split or whether the creature has a choice is unclear, but most natural weapons are not slashing-oriented, so okay, but that means this will come up for the other types.
 * Terrific here is bit of a wait compared to Thicket of Blades, but a much bigger deal considered the reach when acquired is already much bigger than most can threaten with size boosts and spiked chains. I feel like you could do a reduced range, say 5'/two levels and still have it be fairly significant. I suppose there's nothing wrong with people triggering AoOs you can't take, though there's some odd synergy with Stormguard Warrior in that case, since it becomes a win-win situation instead of a possible loss-loss. I guess you probably won't jump through hoops for Stormguard Warrior in a very high level game, but just making a point.
 * Bludgeoning
 * Immunity to bludgeoning is more relevant that slashing and shuts down more natural weapons types (slam is the big one, I think).
 * Asking for clarification on whether Good provokes AoOs.
 * I suppose on the premise you should kill one person each round there's nothing wrong with the Terrific ability, but outside that justification I find myself a little stretched on lower a creature's AC by 6-10 or so every turn. Asking for clarification if this is intended to apply to ranged attacks (assuming yes, but just for clarity).
 * Piercing
 * Completes the set by offering total immunity to natural weapons by level 6. Not a huge fan of this immunity thing, especially the three physical types.
 * Piercing and Force sort of offering alternatives to each other, with the Good here versus Force's Great. Ignoring DR seems the big one here, as there's no spell casting going on. I think other very high balance things offer similar abilities, not sure about the level offered, but it's not too crazy in some regards.
 * I'm not sure how expansive deflection bonuses get to be, but I think this is more underwhelming than the Good. They could potentially be swapped in accordance with usefulness, IMO, unless you feel the need to beat DR is necessary at level 4.
 * Terrific also underwhelming compared to what's come before it and other Terrific options.
 * Construct
 * SR is very nice. All the modifiers together is pushing this closer to immunity than resistance, which is more useful than many of the elemental immunities, even if not all spells offer SR.
 * Generally people have DR, objects have hardness. Did you mean to offer DR? The armor bonus won't be huge with any decent set of armor (assuming they are separate and not stacking). If the intent is a flat numerical boost regardless of equipment it might be worded slightly differently.
 * Major completes the spell immunity, essentially, as does Terrific, for real, with a bunch of other golem stuff. Like the undead immunities, I'm not a big fan of this, though I'm not sure if it's really out of place at the level and this level of balance.
 * Travel
 * I wish more attunements were like this. While plane shift is a touch SoD, these are more situationally useful abilities without just being immune to stuff. There's some straight numerical increases, but to movement speeds, not things which oppose others things.
 * Darkness
 * Unclear if Darkness and Change bonuses to Hide are meant to stack, but damn that is one mean Hide if so.
 * Ethereal travel brings great scouting options and mobility. Perhaps a bit much for level 4.
 * Aside from that, I really like this one too. The constant invisibility is in line with Fiendish Invisibility so no huge complaints, and at 8/10 most should have some way to get around that.
 * Propaganda
 * I don't think players can be Diplomanced, but as an NPC, fair enough.
 * Again, Dilpomancy. I'll assume the two attunements don't stack and perhaps you hope players won't go for Diplomancy, but I don't see much value in giving them the tools to do so.
 * Major is a tad open-ended for my liking in terms of wording, but I catch your drift.
 * Leadership, bah.
 * Vile
 * I don't see how you're using a standard action of out of turn (Great), unless you mean to give up a standard in your next turn.
 * Overall this is a pretty shitty one compared to many of the alternatives.
 * Transformational
 * I like this one as well, more utility and less immunities or recycled damaging abilities.

Overall I feel the immunities are just too much, and by the time you get to level 7 you are getting immunities with each new attunement if you are selecting ones that offer that. I think picking the physical damage types and the construct as the first four creates a great foundation for essentially being untouchable by a vast majority of enemies at that level (seven). I would love to be proven wrong on that count, however, so feel free to attempt to do exactly that. Even forcing a DM to dig for monsters that are specifically a challenge to the planar blade would be a negative in my opinion. I also feel, as others have said, there is a bit of a lack of internal consistency, which is hardly a unique issue (say a sorcerer depending on spells chosen, or any spellcaster in a similar sense), though those traps (sorcerer aside) are a lot less permanent than picking the "wrong" attunement. I'm not sure the lack of internal balance is really bad, however, because generally each attunement has a purpose and a niche, though some make others redundant in part. I'm not asking for a point for point response, just hoping to give you some food for thought that's a little more detailed that some of the other feedback you've gotten thus far. -- Jota (talk) 04:26, 7 February 2013 (UTC)


 * A level 10 is immune to probably 5 things. Let's say you pick immunity to slashing, bludgeoning, piercing, fire, and cold, because those are common: if you pick every 4th monster at CR 10 (because there are 20 of them, and alphabetical probably skews things), you get the Gargantuan Monstrous Scorpion, Rakshasa, Adult White Dragon, Bebilith, and Colossal Animated Object. The Scorpion can still poison you (I think), the Rakshasa can suggest, charm, and just plain trick you, the White Dragon is pretty screwed, Bebilith poison unfortunately specifies that it's an injury poison, leaving it with only Web and a plane shift away, and the Colossal Animated Object does nothing except grapple.
 * Hmm, maybe that's a little too much, given that the Planar Blade can also do things.
 * I kind of like the image of a Planar Blade moving inexorably towards an opponent, grinning as he wades through burning acid, though. Yes, this is a class with mostly immunities and damage abilities, but on the other hand, if you wanted something with a more subtle and complex theme, there are literally dozens of distinct classes for you already at Very High balance. --Foxwarrior (talk) 22:55, 9 February 2013 (UTC)