Talk:Hybrid Elite Warrior (3.5e Class)

Feedback
I'm looking for feedback on this class. Let me know, ok. Peace. --Jay Freedman 22:46, September 6, 2009 (UTC)


 * Also, this is not showing up on the unrated class list. Any ideas why? --Jay Freedman 00:33, September 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * Those pages don't work yet. Surgo 00:36, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

Boring
This class is entirely about gaining numbers. I might have fallen asleep while reading it. Surgo 22:53, September 6, 2009 (UTC)


 * Thank you for trying. --Jay Freedman 23:12, September 6, 2009 (UTC)


 * He meant a bit more than that. The abilities are boring and not worth taking, and numbers increases don't actually let you keep up with what monsters can do to you.  Your abilities also aren't level-appropriate; Wingless, for example, is not a good ability at level 9.  Compare to what caster classes, monsters, and cohort monsters can do.  Not taking falling damage is a 1st-level ability; if you're not supposed to be good at it you can take it a few levels late.  A 9th level character who is vaguely good at flying should be able to just do it.  Seriously, they can have a flying mount, like a Griffon, or a Phantom Steed, or the Overland Flight spell, and just fly all day, so a class feature to do the same thing is fine.  This looks like an overblown prewrite, not even a first draft.


 * Using words (no more than a few sentences), and as few game mechanical references as possible, what does this class do? At 5th level, your party might come up against a Troll, a Huge Animated Object, a Cleric (5th level) leading a Zombie Army, and a Howler/Allip tag team, as well as a chasm,  moat filled with acid, a locked door behind a bunch of pit traps, and greased castle wall.  How does a Hybrid Elite contribute to the party in each of those encounters?  At 10th level, you've moved on to Fire Giants, pairs of Mind Flayers, groups of Six trolls, and the like.  How do you deal?  At 15th level, what does it do when the party comes up against a pair of Gelugons?  One balance point to shoot for is The Same Game Test, which says it should win half of the challenges in each bracket at the appropriate level, alone but with a standard equipment loadout.  Once you have the answers to these questions, then start rewriting your class so that it can actually do those things.  --IGTN 3:30 September 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * Huh, okay. That makes sense.  Make the abilities level appropriate as if I "am" the wizard of the party, not as if I "had" a wizard in the party.  And, play-test every draft against the SGT.  More one-man-army stuff, I guess.  Thanks IGTN.  --Jay Freedman 04:48, September 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * It should be said, you should only do that if you're shooting for that balance point. Not every game plays like that, and more importantly not every game appreciates it. That's near the top tier of balance (as I understand the 3.x balance points being floated around here), and if that's not for you then you might be better served by indicating a balance point and getting feedback on getting it to that point instead.TarkisFlux 04:56, September 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh yeah, absolutely. Balance is a transient word, to be sure.  I've never made a SGT class before, so I figured why not try.  If you can impress the users on this site then you can make anything.  Haha.  Yeehaa.  --Jay Freedman 05:11, September 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * Since when do you get logged out when editing. Stupid computer.  --129.123.243.148 05:52, September 10, 2009 (UTC)(otherwise known as Jay)

Balance Point
Ok, so. In light of the recent Balanced Points I have decided to shoot for the Rogue Tier. Crazy, I know right? But it can be done. Anyway, I marked that on the article itself. If this was going for Tome Tier then I would have maxed the saves and added +5 to any additional attacks granted by BAB. I added the haste ability so you can double your movement and gain an additional strike too. The stacking thing was probably too much though. Haha. Peace. --Jay Freedman 18:58, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

Wiki
This class has been submitted to the community for furthur improvement. Thank you and good luck. --Jay Freedman 06:01, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

Spelling/Names
I'll touch this up and make it look all shiny and stuff soon. --Stryker-Fyre 09:14, March 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Looks good. --Jay Freedman 09:57, March 15, 2010 (UTC)

Clean Up
Did some maintenance. --Jay Freedman 07:43, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Nov 2010 Revision
Added some revisions for clarity. Might, Aerial Blitz, Soldiers Charge, Lightweight. Hope it reads better. Lolz. --Jay Freedman 09:46, 15 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Indeed it does. This class really looks a lot better than previous iterations! I think I'll put it through some tests (Note, I use Pathfinder, so the tests I'm putting it through will not be completely accurate for 3.5). The 42nd Gecko 15:43, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Pathfinder level 10 tests
Just some preliminary results.. Looking through CR 10 monsters and using a level 10 Hybrid Elite Warrior with a score of 26 strength all things considered, cloak of resistance +3 and Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes, chances are, that, unless he runs up against several dragons and primary spellcasters, he will never fail a saving throw in his four encounters at 10th level with saves of +18/+16/+16. However, as he's a frontline warrior, he kinda needs that sort of durability. The absolutely best DC's I could find had either a DC 23 Fort Save, or a DC 21 Reflex or Will save at CR 10 (ignoring one crazy-go-nuts DC on a trample attack for a dinosaur). Most were more in the range of 16-18, meaning that in most cases, the Hybrid Elite Warrior is going to going to save against almost everything, given the absolutely worst cases only give him a 15-20% chance of failure. Granted, he spends two feats and a lot of magic items to get that kind of strength and cloak of resistance. I note that 3.5 edition monsters, however, have some considerably higher DC on the saving throws of their abilities, generally giving the Hybrid Elite Warrior more in the range of a 70-60% chance of success. The 42nd Gecko 17:16, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, when assuming that the Hybrid Elite Warrior has hasted himself, he's going to need 2-3 rounds of quality full attack time to kill an equal CR non-primary spellcaster, at level 10. Equally, most equal CR non-primary spellcaster equally CRed monsters can take him out in 2-3 rounds of full attacking. This isn't counting criticals, which the Hybrid Elite Warrior will have a slight edge in.The 42nd Gecko 17:35, 24 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, from what I've examined so far, the Hybrid Elite Warrior gets a huge defensive buff compared to say, the Fighter or the Barbarian, and, with haste, gets just enough attack power to make it deal some damage with those full attacks, at least at level 10. I think this class is rogue level, at least in a melee slugfest with an equal CR monster that has equivalent resources devoted to avoiding spells. To demonstrate, I'll show a 10th level Hybrid Elite Warrior in comparison to a Clay Golem. Note, once again, this is Pathfinder I'm using for the test, folks, so not quite accurate as far as 3.5e goes, except as an estimation. Monsters are somewhat easier and PCs are somewhat stronger, so to compensate, I didn't exactly chose the most efficient magic items or weapon and feat choices. You don't want to sit 10/15 ft back from the target tripping them every round with this class, you want to run in and full attack.

Stat Array used, 16, 14, 12, 12, 10, 8. This is the Pathfinder “heroic NPC” array with a point moved from the thirteen to the fifteen. Human level 10 Hybrid Warrior. Stats:Str 26 (+2 from human ability choice, +2 from Inner Strength, +2 from leveling up, +4 Belt of giant strength), Dex 12, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 8 62,000 gold (-16000,-18,000-16,000, 9000) Leaves 3000 gold for consumables. +3 Greatsword, +4 Padded Armor, +3 Cloak of Resistance, +4 belt of giant's strength. Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Cleave, Great Cleave, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Toughness. Skills: Perceptions +13, Stealth +14, (We'll ignore the possibility of UMD) and two other things you want maxed.

And the important combat stats that gives us.. HP: 10d10+30 (Rounding up and assuming the first roll is maximized, 90 HP.) Attack: +22 (2d6+19), +19 (2d6+31) if power attack, +1 to attack while hasted. Full attack: +22/17 (2d6+19), +19/14 (2d6+31) with power attack, +22/22/17 (2d6+19) while hasted, +20/20/15 (2d6+31) with both. Initiative: +1 AC: 23/24 (+8 "dex", +5 Armor, +1 dodge if hasted) Speed: 30 ft CMB: +18 CMD: 29 Saves +18/16/16 3/day haste, swift action

vs

HP: 101 Attack: +19 (2d10+7), +20 (2d10+7) if hasted. Full Attack: +19/+19 (2d10+7), +20/20/20 (2d10+7) Initiative: -1 AC: 24 (25 if hasted) DR: 10/adamantine or bludgeoning Speed: 20 ft CMB: +19 CMD: 30 The saves of the Clay Golem are downright horrible. However, they are immune to about 60-70% of everything that requires a saving throw, which is roughly equivalent to passing 60-70% of your saving throws. Can haste self as free action after one round of combat 1/day, 3 rounds.

As the combat would go between them. Round one Start: The Hybrid Elite Warrior would have vastly higher perception, speed, and somewhat higher initiative, so I'm going assume that he would get the first strike. Haste self as a swift action, Blitz to avoid taking an attack of opportunity from the Golem's superior reach, and power attack once. This attack would hit 85% of the time, for an average of ((38-10)x.8) = 22 damage. The golem, without haste yet, full attack back. He has a 75% chance to hit with (2d10+7) damage for an average of 27 damage.

Round one Finish: Hybrid: 63 HP Clay Golem: 79 HP

Round two start: Now it's time for the Hybrid Elite Warrior to unleash a full attack. This very nearly kills the Clay Golem with 61 damage. The Clay Golem decides to "get dangerous" with a haste of his own and unleashes a full attack, for a lot more damage than last time, 46 damage, nearly killing the Hybrid.

Round two Finish: Hybrid: 17 HP Clay Golem: 18

Round Three Start: And the Hybrid now kills the Golem, using the fact that he went first. However, if he, had somehow gotten a full attack round one, by say, using stealth and/or a surprise round, he'd have killed the Golem at the start of round two. Still, if, say, he got an unlucky initiative roll, it could be all over for him, because the Golem would kill him this round too.


 * In conclusion, I definitely think this class does meet it's design idea of "usable for new players" Even with a sub-par item and feat build, it can still dish out some respectable damage, and, very importantly for a new player can make those save or dies that the new player is bound to waltz into. The 42nd Gecko 18:52, 24 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the playtest. You rock!  --Jay Freedman 04:20, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Race/Class Combination
This class might be reasonably balanced for a Human who starts with 16 Strength, but if you're willing to grab some hit dice or level adjustment and dump all your other stats (which you should, because the class becomes perfectly SAD by level 6), then you can start with much closer to 26 or 28 Strength. The Hybrid Elite Warrior walks off the RNG and doesn't look back. --Foxwarrior 18:29, 20 September 2011 (UTC)