Talk:Grimoire Tenken (3.5e Alternate Class Feature)

Questions
Otherwise I likes. -- Jota 21:53, February 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) For Piercing Wind, is it a general addition or does it apply to each attack, a la Sneak Attack?
 * 2) For Shunpo, I am assuming a standard action, which still has some usefulness but kind of sucks. Can it be reduced to a move action at some later point, and then perhaps even further to a swift?


 * Yes, clarified it in the ability.
 * Psi-like abilities and the like are always manifested at their highest augmented level, so as soon as Dimensional Slide can be manifested as a move action, the ability automatically becomes that.
 * Hope that helps :-) --Ghostwheel 23:19, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Uh Oh
Hate to say it, bro, but, you have a few flaws. Now, the pure Tenken class is an extremely good Rogue level class, with the one sad exception that is specifically disallows TWF, which prohibits certain options, and this makes us cry. This variant doesn't disallow TWF, but, discourages it by offering a reward to those who specifically side-step TWF. This makes us cry even more, and needs to be rectified. Secondly, you lower the classes BAB to Rogue, give it the two class skills that are key to being a Rogue, and give it Rogue semi-engorged SA. Lets look at that. It's mega sneak attack (d8 instead of d6), that you get only whenever you're getting the most bang for your buck, and that you get without restriction. Getting you a total +50d8, against the Rogues normal +30d6. Admittedly, the Rogue can maybe get +60d6, but, compared to each other, this gets +225 before feats, and a lot better chance of hitting (see lower), while the Rogue gets +210 after feats, and a much lower chance of hitting (TWF penalties, without the amazing benefit mentioned lower), then, the Tenken could just use one of the feats he didn't use, to get Able Learner at first level, and get UMD (as well as all other skills) as a class skill, allowing you to show up everyone. Seriously, needs a lot of work there, and needs to peel away from the Rogue, since, it looks like a carbon copy as is, which is sad. Best advice would be to remove it entirely, and add TWF into the mix, as a matter of fact. Next the AC bonus gets an 'upgrade' which does nothing whatsoever. The Tenken doesn't get light armor Proficiency. That's just cosmetic, of course. HPtF is the amazing benefit that amazingly increases chance of hitting amazingly, it just ignores the fact that you decreased the classes BAB entirely, and gives the damage cannon the ability to do the damage with far more consistancy than the Rogue. Then TotWT, mixed with Astra, just removes the need for TWF all together, so, any virtue in removing it, has been ignored? This all really hinges on that mega-swollen-sneak-attack, as, with it, either this class is far from Rogue balance point, or it needs some major work/originality. Also, bro, do yourself a favor and come up with more normal (sounding) ability names, like KAI or Miastijustu instead of "Hippopatamus Goes Skinny Dipping". Well, I've got to go to school, good luck with your edits, bro. --Mock Turtle 11:41, February 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Why would giving a reward to those who don't use TWF make you cry? (Since you can't use shukuchi with TWF.) You'll notice that along with the lowered BAB, I also give bonuses to attack. And yes, I give sneaky and spotty skills to a class that uses *wisdom* and is *mobile* (/dex-based). So far, not seeing a problem. I also think that the rogue should get similar bonuses to attack when they flank, but that's neither here nor there. (On that note though, check out the basic combat rogue.) I'm still not seeing the problem. Notice the skill differences. Notice the lack of UMD (and having to waste a feat on it). Notice that inability to TWF (add on things like Craven, Staggering Blow, etc). And yes, the AC boost is a change--I'm still not seeing how it's a bad thing to give a character with d8 HD who's supposed to be a frontliner a boost to AC. So, bro, why don't you actually show some numbers and compare them to a combat rogue before making statements that (as of yet) hold no water? Show me the actual numbers. Attack, damage, etc, vs. an appropriate AC.
 * You claim that this version of the tenken is wizard-level. Rather, I would contend that the Grimoire version is far more towards the middle (perhaps higher) of the rogue-level balance point while the original is closer to the lower end of the range.
 * You also seem to be under the misconception that I make classes that suck. This isn't the case. I make classes that are not only pre-optimized (that is, you don't need to get UBER SUPER FEATS to make them work) yet that are also not very optimizable. Read up on my design philosophy for more details. But in all seriousness, show me that this tenken can deal the amount marked "HP" in the tables in a single round when weighted against the AC marked in the "AC" column and you'll have a chance of convincing me. Not with emotions and assumptions, but with actual, hard numbers. Do the work. You'll get a better understanding for how the game works. And if you words are true and all your math is right--my mind may easily be convinced. --Ghostwheel 12:09, February 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh wow, bro! Look at that! I even did the work for you! And... imagine that! It fits the Grimoire balance tables almost perfectly!! Totally awesome, braaaah! --Ghostwheel 20:33, March 17, 2010 (UTC)