Talk:Nonlinear Fighter (3.5e Class)

Nonlinear?
I'm a little confused about the name here...also, I don't think it's Rogue. Better than Fighter for obvious reasons, but probably not above Fighter level. Surgo 00:00, March 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Nonlinear is referring to the way that the normal fighter gets the same benefits at every pair of levels, but this one gets more benefits at later levels.
 * Is the Fighter really that low on the Fighter-level balance point? Can't enough bonus feats (assuming they are chosen well) bump a character up to Rogue level? --Foxwarrior 00:08, March 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd say it's more unquantifiable. With the "any" feats, it could be taking Combat feats in one game, and monk-level feats in another. One would be wizard, the other monk-level. So much disparity there that it really matters which game you're running it in. Sounds about right for unquantifiable. --Ghostwheel 00:13, March 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Is a Fighter that takes an excellent combination of Wizard-level feats still fighter-level? I think not. --Foxwarrior 00:17, March 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * A fighter that takes excellent combinations of feats found in 3.5 WotC products without Tome stuff is going to end up around rogue level. Especially since they're limited to fighter feats only. Taking both where this class is, and which feats it can take into consideration would be able to push it into wizard-levels I think--in the end it only matters what feats you take, which makes it unquantifiable in my mind. All dependent on the game you're in, and what the DM allows. --Ghostwheel 00:19, March 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Why is this now Rogue? The first level ability is akin to the Tome Fighter's Problem Solver ability, considered amongst its most powerful. Furthermore, if it takes primarily Combat feats, it's still wizard-level, and if it takes monk-level feats it's fairly monk level (maybe fighter). Why would this be rogue? --Ghostwheel 06:49, March 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * I admit that this class is more optimizable or de-optimizable than the classes you like. However, in any given situation it is only marginally better than the Fighter, and so the Rogue balance point. --Foxwarrior 08:57, March 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Shall we SGT it, with combat feats from Tome (and other sources, of course), as well as the ability to change feats around at will to provide against any situation? --Ghostwheel 10:20, March 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * If you're going to make comparisons to a class being more or less optimizable you should be looking at how we treat the wizard. While you totally can play that class like a fighter level class by de-optimizing your spell selections, it's not treated as that or even as it's middle of the road level. It's rated against its good abilities and gets its own level named after it.


 * That said, I honestly doubt that taking a standard fighter and giving it the ability to swap standard feats around and a couple of skill points is enough to boost it to rogue level (assuming standard feats anyway). It's more flexible, but it's class features are still bonus feats and those are still generally fighter level things you have to string together into crazy chains to attempt (and ultimately fail) to keep up with rogue level classes. You can change your chains now, which is nice, and you can fill them with non-fighter stuff, which I don't think matters, but it only helps if you have some expectation of what's coming. Otherwise you're just going to optimize a chain and try to power through an encounter with it because you don't have time to get a different one together in a fight. So yeah, that's marginally better than a standard fighter, but Fighter + Marginal Improvement != (alternately =/= or not equal) Rogue Level; there are lots of fighter level classes that are marginally better than a fighter and they're still fighter level. As to tome feats (all of which are open to him), I'm not sure I agree with ghosts assessment. They're certainly better than regular fighter feats, but just having access to a few wizard level options does not necessarily a wizard level class make. This fighter doesn't get reach or foil action or the ability to make its own equipment or lots of other things, and these are significant contributions to its rating. I'd be interested in seeing an SGT of it, provided that he wasn't walking into each encounter with specifically tailored feats but had a general setup decided at the beginning and was allowed to make changes to it if time permitted. - TarkisFlux 16:26, March 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Of course he wouldn't be walking into each encounter the first time with tailored feats, but I've made a bunch of running feats that would be excellent for getting away in order to walk into each encounter a second time. --Foxwarrior 18:56, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

ACF
Glanced over and saw this class, might this be better as an ACF? (Give up class abilities, gain a bonus feat at level 2, gain retrain ability, and poof, you've basically got this class.) Just figure that it's better not to have classes that are virtual copies of each other under different names on the wiki. --Ghostwheel 17:39, March 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * There's another one of those? I suppose that means you can get a level 7 character with a total of 8 different bonus feats now. If this were an ACF, it would be an ACF of the Fighter, not the Soldier, True Archer, or some class named Warrior that I can't find any more. --Foxwarrior 18:51, March 29, 2010 (UTC)