Talk:Gestalt Style Multiclassing (3.5e Variant Rule)

Ratings

 * Wait, what? How exactly did this remove feasible multiclassing options in favor of shooting yourself in the foot? It's a straight powerup over standard multiclassing. Previously you could be a 9/1, and 8/2, or some other combination that added up to 10. With this you get to be a 9/1 (effective 5) or an 8/2 (effective 8). So while it might be unclear (and if you could point out where I lost you specifically I'd appreciate it), it looks a whole lot less like shooting yourself in the foot than standard multiclassing to me. Mind explaining your position a bit better? - Tarkisflux Talk 17:29, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Also, how did you miss the primary class level thing? Your previous rating included lines about how multiclassing left you behind straight casters because you weren't getting class features equal to your character level, and how that was fine because it narrowed multiclassing gaps. It's really weird that the thing you liked before is now worth an oppose. What happened DD? - Tarkisflux Talk 20:03, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Really the huge revelation was that your BAB and saves will only go up to the level of your primary. So casters still have the disincentive I noticed before of losing caster levels, and fighter-types have the disincentive of losing BAB, and everyone has the disincentive of losing save bonus. --DanielDraco (talk) 02:12, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Taking one secondary class drops your BAB by maybe 2 points and your good saves by 1, and gives you a small pile of new abilities you could use instead. Taking lots of secondary classes is shooting yourself in the foot, true, but you can't put more than 4 levels in those anyway. BAB -4, good saves -2, and CL -4 for 3 classes worth of abilities might not be worth it, but I don't think that losing BAB -2, good saves -1, and CL -2 in exchange for two classes worth of features (particularly if either of them is a casting progression) is a terrible trade by any measure. There needs to be some drawback to discourage everyone doing this, and ability delaying didn't seem sufficient on its own.


 * That said, it does strongly disincentivize multiclassing into similar classes, and that was not intended at all. I could fix that by allowing stacking for same progression things, but that's even more complicated mechanics on top of this and I don't want to do it. So I'll probably shuffle things around so that saves and BAB and caster level all trigger off of character level isntead. It still incentivizes multiclassing into something totally different to maximize save bonuses or to have both full BAB and full CL, but at least it won't hurt if you want to grab a bunch of abilities that are similar to yours. - Tarkisflux Talk 03:11, 20 September 2013 (UTC)


 * It's probably more accurately described as exponential wizards and quadratic fighters. That said, this variant rule seems to be balanced specifically with Wizard-level style class designs, so it should probably be listed at that balance point. Also, why wouldn't you want to voltron together heaping handfuls of martial classes when playing a Tome martial character in this system? Those are still designed without enough exponential versatility progression, as far as I can tell. --Foxwarrior (talk) 02:33, 9 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I guess I forgot to respond to this last year. Since the level that determines class features and saves and BAB is still your level in your primary class, voltroning heaping handfuls of anything together is not very helpful. If you're a level 14 character with 2 fully vested secondary classes, you're basically a triple gestalt level 10 character. You're 4 levels down in BAB, saves, class features, and so on. While that might make sense in some situations, every secondary class you take causes you to fall further behind on the RNG and grants increasingly less level appropriate class features (even if there are more of them). Taking 2 secondary classes pushes you down into cohort levels of bonuses and abilities, 4 puts you down in follower levels of bonuses and abilities, and 5+ puts you so far off the RNG as to not be a viable character.


 * It's mentioned in the supporting changes section on cohorts that it's a bad idea to take 2 or more fully vested secondary classes, but having written the above bits out I think I might just forbid it. Allowing it doesn't seem to do anything other than leave a really terrible option in, and I don't like it. - Tarkisflux Talk 15:03, 18 August 2013 (UTC)