Talk:Flammenwerfer (3.5e Class)

Out of Combat
I have some now. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 10:19, 27 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Asbestos Aura - "20 foot" is not an area by itself. Radius maybe? - Tarkisflux Talk 17:54, 27 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I dig it. They are few, but between Solid Flame and Reforge there is a lot of potential for flexibility. It's like major creation, without all the massive abusability. So yeah, that stuff should be enough for utility. Although I'm not sure whether the 5 lb/level is meant to be a limit to how much solid flame can be created at once, or how much can be created in total. If the latter, what happens if he loses track of some of his solid flame? Is it gone forever and unable to be replaced, or can he will it to unshape wherever it is, and then just make some more? --DanielDraco (talk) 20:41, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Balance
Since when has a spammable AoE blind been balanced at High? Especially when it's available at 2nd level. Or the ability to completely negate ranged characters? Or the ability to AoE nauseate enemies? Honestly, I like this class, but it has enough combat utility to potentially put many sorcs to shame (and let's not talk about psions/wilders, who are also in the VH range). --Ghostwheel (talk) 12:18, 21 September 2012 (UTC)


 * You had a point on blind, and it has been pushed back (the blinding part anyway) to 8th. I suppose negating ranged attacks means Deflect Projectiles, but its just once a round.  It's just Deflect Arrows.  AoE nausea is at 10th, at which point I don't care, since the superior stinking clouds have been floating around for five levels by then.  The spell doesn't require upkeep and constant saves. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 12:50, 21 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Let's give my favorite example; either this against a party of definitely-H-range-characters, or this as part of a party against a DM throwing H-level encounters at the party.
 * Either way, there's going to be a lot of frustration if half the time the opposing side can barely function... which is a mark of VH-level abilities.
 * And I meant Fog Cloud more than Deflect Projectiles, since that'll screw over any opposing ranged character, as well as bringing a lot of utility to the class in a way that isn't reminiscent of H-range characters. --Ghostwheel (talk) 13:19, 21 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I disagree slightly. The level things come online plays a large part where I stick the balance range.  A [Death] effect save or die might be fight in fighter games... at 20th.  In higher level games they appear at lower and lower levels until wizard level (9th).  But, on terms of fog cloud... interesting, but it's available via Smokesticks.  I'm sure sure if you can't get more available than that.  It's mostly an escape tactic until you can See in Smoke, which is a great ability allowing you to have one-sided concealment.  But at the level you get it, I find it appropriate. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 13:55, 21 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Making an argument of the form, "WotC VH classes can get it at level X, so it's fine for a H class as long as I give it later" presumes that the difference between H and VH is purely quantitative, not qualitative. It also presumes that VH class abilities form a logical, consistent, and balanced progression. Both presumptions are patently untrue. H classes can be justified to get access to very limited shutdown abilities. But AoE fog every round is not sufficiently limited, especially when the class is based on AoE damage anyway -- just keep spamming that ability, and it doesn't make a bit of difference whether you can see where the enemies are. Your allies are safe too, because of Precise Fire, which does not require you to actually know where your allies are. So yeah, smokeblast could use a cooldown. I'd say every 1d4 rounds for the high end of H, or 1/minute to be more middle-of-the-road.


 * I'd argue against allowing them Deflect Projectiles too, on the basis that it is a hard counter. Yeah, it's only 1/round, but not all ranged combatants use barrages. It's seriously strong in the right situation, and should probably involve a roll of some sort. --DanielDraco (talk)


 * What DD said, just because they come online early in VH games, does not mean that stinking cloud should ever make an appearance in H-level games (or, for that matter, nor should most of the god-wizard spells). That means that both the blind and nauseate rarely come up in H-level play, and if they do then they are severely limited, not spammable, and come at the cost of another ability rather than being tacked on top of everything else you can do. --Ghostwheel (talk) 21:47, 21 September 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not saying it's purely quantitative, but I am saying quantitative is a large part of it. Here, take Tome of Battle, the defacto example of High level.  Yet this "High Level" possesses massive ability damage (mountain tombstone strike, 5 shadow creeping ice enervating strike), save or dies/effective death (hand of death, feral death blow), and various means of denying actions (stunning, dazing, paralysis).  Clearly, action denial is not the sole domain of Very High.  The fact these effects often come 4 levels after wizards obtain them furthers my argument for delayed acquisition.  You can still spam these effects fairly easily, even with ToB's restrictions of maneuver use.  If you wish to argue that it becomes too powerful because it's that, plus in an area, all well and fine, but that's unrelated to the idea that things lower than Very High level can obtain and use these "very high level tactics".


 * The reason I rank this lesser than the wizard's stinking cloud isn't just because it comes later, but also because it's not fire and forget. The wizard dedicates a single round to shutting down the enemy, who will remain shut down for 1d4+1 more rounds later with no effort on his part, while he goes and summons some solars or something.  To achieve the same effect the flammen must employ the same tactic every round, with them getting a save every round, in order to keep them shut down.  I lock away their combat options on other things they may want to do in that round, and make it uncertain since the enemy is likely to make they're saving throw eventually.  Combine that with Fort being one of the stronger saves in the game, and unless you're fighting nothing but casters you have a fairly good chance that your nausea tactics will fail to produce results beyond middling damage.


 * Amusing bug you found though, about Precise Fire not needing to know where your allies are. That is unintentional and will be re-worded.


 * I'm rather surprised you think Deflect Arrows is so potent. It's... it's often been shown as a very blah ability.  Even if you assume the enemy is only firing a single arrow at a time (a fairly difficult to pull off build IMO), it also assumes you're only fighting a single ranged character.  I dunno about you, but I imagine if I'm gonna throw in powerful single shooters, I'm gonna have more than one on the battlefield.  In fact, the only example I can think of of powerful single shots... are siege attacks like a giant's rock throwing, which this doesn't cover.  This seems like a situation which is too circumstantial to bother with. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 01:12, 22 September 2012 (UTC)


 * ToB shutdown abilities are generally very very low duration, and have a cooldown (in the form of requiring that they be recovered before being used again). So it's generally 1 round of the effect, with a practical minimum of 2 rounds between. Yes, Bright Fire and Smoke Blast and Toxic Blast are inferior to similar wizard abilities in terms of duration, but A) they are superior in that they are at-will and have very very large areas and B) that is comparing apples to oranges, because disparity from a wizard would not imply similarity to a warblade. The save doesn't factor into it when you're comparing apples to this new fruit intended to be apples, because ToB abilities always either require an attack roll, allow a save, or both, and are generally very very small areas (on the rare occasion that they're not just single-target) -- so yeah, you're allowing a save every round...but so does ToB generally, and it doesn't let you spam AoE shutdowns.


 * Even setting aside the above, the argumentum ad ToBum doesn't really apply to any of those abilities because they are effects which are completely unavoidable. If you're in the area of Bright Fire from a level 8 pyr flammenwerfer, then you're getting that penalty. Period. No questions. If you're in the area of Smoke Blast, you can't see. Period. No questions. There's no roll involved -- you're doomed to becoming far far FAR less effective. Unavoidable shutdowns and debuffs are not the domain of H.


 * That, by the way, is the same reason I don't like Deflect Arrows in a H game. Yeah, it's generally not worth a feat because it's so conditional, but that doesn't mean that it justifies a hard counter when those conditions are fulfilled. --DanielDraco (talk) 18:32, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Picture
Would be fitting? --Ghostwheel (talk) 12:20, 21 September 2012 (UTC)


 * It is fitting, and yes, this is basically Pyro the class. However, I've a different image in mind.... -- Eiji-kun (talk) 12:50, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Utility
"So, Mr. Flammenwerfer, what is it that you do?" "I werf flammen." "What else do you do?" "I'm sorry, I don't understand the question."

While I do very much like the class overall and will likely give it a positive rating after its state is a little less volatile (pun intended), there is one major concern aside from balance which disinclines me from Favoring it: utility. It has none. There is precisely one utilitarian ability, Firewalk, but it's nothing really special. It's a transportation ability -- something that most homebrew classes in the H range tend to get, and which is generally only useful if you lack a teleporting wizard anyway. It could use something not geared toward meting out fourth-degree burns. A pinch of prestidigitation, a dash of divination, a smidgeon of something vaguely useful outside of combat. This class looks like it can potentially be a lot of fun in a fight, but I'd be bored out of my mind playing one in any noncombat situation while the rogue keeps the party safe from traps, the wizard deals with non-trap obstacles, and the beguiler sweet-talks all the weak-minded peons. --DanielDraco (talk) 20:33, 22 September 2012 (UTC)