User talk:Franken Kesey/!Kun (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

Why?
I have no issue with this existing as a subpage of a userpage, but I see very little reason for something like this to be an actual build on this wiki, with the 3.5e Optimized Character Breadcrumb and all that it implies, because it uses homebrew. It's one thing to create a build within the constraints of official sources, but once you go beyond those the purpose of the exercise is lost, given the infinitely variable nature of homebrew. I think this should be moved and /edited accordingly. -- Jota 02:17, 27 January 2011 (UTC)


 * +1, and there's the fact that the damage isn't even very impressive, and all-in-all this doesn't really qualify to be an optimized build. --Ghostwheel 04:24, 27 January 2011 (UTC)


 * The use of homebrew is not discouraged on the mainstay, nor should it disqualify a build. Now that you mention it, there are only 6 articles (in the main table) that are homebrew. None of which are balanced at wizard level. Nor does there appear to be any lesser of a challenge. --Franken Kesey 17:43, 27 January 2011 (UTC)


 * There's no standing policy against homebrew in optimized builds. Complaints that it uses homebrew and is thus somehow invalid as an article here are extremely bizarre. While it may make the exercise less interesting from a TO standpoint it doesn't make it any less optimized in practice to use material that was made up over here than was made up over there and then published. If an article isn't well optimized, it's not well optimized regardless of what it includes. This article currently lacks a goal and any fluff for its optimization and is incomplete, so I don't know what it was going for, but it's rather underwhelming on its face. Which makes it fail as a piece of CO apparently, and is a perfectly valid reason to remove it on its own.


 * If this article sucks as a build for reasons other than homebrew inclusion, explain why and it will stop sucking or it will be deleted; it might be anyway since I'm about to go incomplete it because of empty sections. If you don't want homebrew in optimized builds or want to limit them in other ways, start this project page and we'll sort what we want in this category as a community. - Tarkisflux 18:53, 27 January 2011 (UTC)


 * It's less a challenge [than official sources only] because you can INVENT YOUR OWN FUCKING HOMEBREW to fill whatever need you have need of filling. I could make a brand new feat that invalidates everything in your build. You know what that makes this exercise? Fucking pointless. -- Jota 00:36, 28 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I fully agree with the notion that inventing for builds is pointless. And you should note that I have yet to do so. In fact, creating a build with non-wizard homebrew would seam even more of a challenge than published. (If one does not use their own material, and does not use wizard stuff.) Thought Thunder God infered it more astutly. Check it out. --Franken Kesey 00:51, 28 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, using homebrew reduces the challenge of a good CO, but I wasn't aware that this section was kept here for the challenge of it. I thought we kept it around so that people could see what you could do when certain options were stuck together and abused in particular ways as an example of well built characters and not a challenge in and of itself. That sort of thing allows people to try and show off homebrew builds, even if there are fewer of them because it's built differently and responds differently to optimization. There are communities not built around homebrew if you want CO for the challenge of it, but if we really want that to be the case here then we can community that up. Until that happens though, the challenge of an optimization has nothing to do with it being actually optimized compared to the base pieces that are used to build it (and Cid has already shown below why this falls short there). - Tarkisflux 01:16, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Homebrew in Builds
I have nothing wrong with homebrew in builds, but this build sucks. If you want to keep it, sandbox it. Surgo 18:42, 27 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Thankyou Tarkisflux. Ok, how does it suck? --Franken Kesey 18:56, 27 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Start by explaining what it's supposed to do on the article page. Fill in the incomplete sections. After it's clear what it's even supposed to be doing and the way in which it's supposed to be optimized we can have a discussion about the ways it does or doesn't meet those goals. - Tarkisflux 19:06, 27 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Have posted its mission statement. --Franken Kesey 19:08, 27 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Tactics and limitations would also be helpful. - Tarkisflux 20:46, 27 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Basically, the build is not as powerful as it easily could be, which suggests to me that it is not really optimized at all. And given that it utilizies essentially all homebrew material, it vastly falls short of the potential that you could get from just homebrew on this Wiki.


 * As far as I'm concerned, this build's first failing is having two separate emphases that essentially contradict each other: small size and reach. With powers like expansion and whatever, you are already going to negate most of the conceievable bonuses you get for being small; in order to have one work to maximum potential, you override the other. That's why most charop is about hyperspecialization; you either get as small and evasive as possible or as large and powerful as possible, not both.


 * Just as an example of how this could be way more wickedly awesome than it currently is (and also proving the point that homebrew definitely takes any challenge or, in my opinion, achievement, out of optimization), say I start as an evil Tiefling and take Large Size and Huge Size in place of Great Cleave and Mounted Combat (Why is this guy even mounted anyway? it doesn't work well with the halberdier, IMO) and replace all Tiny Hammerer levels with straight halberdier until you get Pierce the Line (for x4 damage instead of x3). Then you can take Pounce to get all that on a full attack. And this is almost optimizing a single class by this point, not so much a build except for the psionics. I'm too lazy to do the exact math, but I pretty much guarantee that it will be higher than your current total with similar if not better reach, too. Because, in all honesty, 354 damage for a charger is pretty low when you're using a large amount of Rogue-level material.


 * One of the issues with attempting to optimize homebrew to me seems that most attempts to make a build with multiple classes end up almost inferior to a single class taken to level 20. Just by adding more levels of Halberdier, you increase its combat potential significantly and probably still have a few spare levels to do whatever you want so long as it doesn't jeopardize the build already in place. The other issue is how different homebrew is made for different styles of play, but hypothetically you could combine Ghost's Original Race Rebuilding with Tome feats and be none the wiser because they are all homebrew, even though they are not necessarily meant to be used together. With WotC material only, no such conundrums exist. So sure, there isn't any policy against it, but I think it really cheapens the purpose of character optimization to use homebrew. It does so to the point where I strong advocate making a section that only uses published material and one other that includes homebrew (I know this has been discussed recently, but I'm throwing it out there again). - TG Cid 00:30, 28 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Yet again, I have not a single book at hand. And wish to thank the contributers of this wiki for giving me my sole resource. If you know of any websites that would afford me published resourses I'd be most intrested. Until then this is all I've got!


 * One of the axiums of this build is not to use wizard level stuff. While you are correct that the mentioned feats would do it wonders, I have to refrain from using them. Though I will most certainly incorporate pounce into the build. I would not state that there is a profound difference bettween rouge and wizard. Just that there is not enought fighter for a single optimized build, and there is an iota of monk material.


 * You have my vote for making a published and unpublished section... Though it would assure more builds like this one. --Franken Kesey 01:23, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

4th level sorcerer/psychic warrior
Would a 4th level sorcerer or phychic warrior (incorporated through a leadership feat, or an animal compainion) be a bad idea if it was incorporated at about 12th level, and did not continue to gain levels? --Franken Kesey 20:18, 28 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Normally I would say most Leadership-like feats are Wizard-level, but that's pretty weak. That kind of follower is practically useless unless he only buffed stuff up, and he wouldn't even be as good at that as he should be relative to your level. It also just seems to be another unnecessary direction to take the build in that doesn't add much helpful. - TG Cid 21:17, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

What it needs to be optimal
So what does this build need to bcome optimal, while remaining below wizard level? --Franken Kesey 15:34, 31 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Chargers are usually considered Rogue-level. The combination of charging and lots of reach is wizard-level. You're gunning for two different things here that are mutually exclusive. - TG Cid 15:46, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Weapon Properties
It seems you misunderstand how weapon properties work. You either get the +1 to attack and damage, or you pay that as a cost to get the weapon property. You do not get both. Flaming, for example, does not give +1 to attack and +1d6+1 damage. It gives only +1d6 damage, and it costs the same as if you had instead added a +1 attack and damage to the weapon. As a result of this, your numbers are substantially off on both hitting and damage. - Tarkisflux 18:27, 31 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you for clearing that up. --Franken Kesey 18:41, 31 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, you still need a base +1 before you can put any properties on it. I'd recommend turning the Defending into a base +1 to qualify, as it doesn't actually do anything in your build otherwise. - Tarkisflux 19:16, 1 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Reference: SRD:Magic Weapons. Relevant quote: "A weapon with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus." You may want to read the whole thing though. - Tarkisflux 20:25, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Feats
It needs 3 more feats. Suggestions? Or should I just do away with the feat purchasing rule? --Franken Kesey 22:00, 1 February 2011 (UTC)


 * The feats Psionic Body, Expanded Knowledge, and Psionic Meditation might be nice additions. --68.96.174.231 20:20, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Sandbox This
This article is completely incomprehensible, and the build isn't even all that impressive either. Sandbox this, or I'll delete it. I don't ever want to see another incomplete, incomprehensible idea in the optimized builds. Surgo 01:35, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

What it still needs to be optimized:
Given all the things that it has access to with everything but Wizard-level material, I feel like this is pretty low DPR. No one is going to give you all the time to hit people you want, and the damage is contingent on every attack hitting and doesn't account for the random variables in the game. Since one of my classes is so involved, I felt compelled to do this.

Because you did not use any Wizard-level material, I will also refrain from doing so. But this build is nearly all one class with only a few dips into others so I can nab bonus feats, which ends up more optimized than your build. When this can occur, it’s not really optimized in my opinion. I’ll also use the correct way of calculating damage per round instead of assuming for some unfathomable reason that every attack is a success (you have to account for the inherent randomness of the game). I will also concede that much of this homebrew is mine; the class itself is mine, after all. But it has not been custom-made for the purposes of this build. Also, I’ll bite and use some of the same feats, because it makes this easier. I’m also using the same flaws and point buy, but not the original race rebuilding or other variant rules. So here we go:

Flaws: Shaky (Power Attack), Meager Fortitude (Variant Weapon Focus - halberd)

1: Halberdier 1 (Reckless Offense) 2: Fighter 1 (Cleave) 3: Fighter 2 (Athletic, Run) 4: Halberdier 2 5: Halberdier 3 (Improved Trip) 6: Psychic Warrior 1 (Strong Grip, Pounce) 7: Psychic Warrior 2 (Leap Attack) 8: Halberdier 4 9: Halberdier 5 (Improved Bull Rush) 10: Halberdier 6 11: Halberdier 7 12: Halberdier 8 (Shock Trooper) 13: Halberdier 9 14: Halberdier 10 15: Halberdier 11 (Powerful Build) 16: Halberdier 12 17: Halberdier 13 18: Halberdier 14 (Impressive Reach) 19: Halberdier 15 20: Halberdier 16

Attack: +20 + 12 + 5 + 5 + 2 (Reckless Offense) + 2(charge) + 44

Strength 18 + 5 leveling + 5 tome, +6 item = 34 (+12)

+5 flaming shocking frost halberd: 2d8+29+1d6 fire+1d6 cold+1d6 electricity +2d6 vicious = 9 + 9.5+ +7 (25.5) + 24 = 49.5 x5 = 247.5

DPR: Against AC 40 +44: 247.5 x .95 = 235.125 +39: 247.5 x .95 = 235.125 +34: 247.5 x .70 = 173.25 +29: 247.5 x .55 = 136.125

779.625

If you hit with multiple attacks, you may attempt to trip (a pretty likely victory with Kneecapper)

49.5 + 56 = 105.5

It finishes out with around 885 damage in one round without any prep whatsoever. That's one person basically gone unless their hp is through the roof. If you need more, it doesn't even factor in Power Attack, so you can reduce your AC to null and kill just about anything.

Admittedly, it only covers one aspect (damage), but it's perhaps the most important aspect in the game. What I'm trying to prove is that the build's components don't synergize with each other and thus doesn't achieve the general purpose of most optimized builds (that the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts). - TG Cid 05:15, 7 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your most astute analysis. I apologize for the recent revamps that have greatly altered this build. Correct me if I am wrong, but this build only uses 6 levels of Halberdier. While I do acknowledge the profound influence of the Halberdier class, I still cannot muse it being the fulcrum of this build.


 * Will add:
 * Reckless Offense
 * Strong Grip
 * Powerful Build
 * will replace 2nd and 3rd level of War Mind with Psychic Warrior


 * Questions:
 * What are the specific bonuses of the Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper
 * I have been assuming the average roll of 10 (for every roll), what is the correct way to calculate randomness?
 * What DPR should I be shooting for? What is the optimal range of damage? (i.e. above 700?)


 * I stand corrected on my amateur statistical skills, but have yet to fathom how I found 1002 DPR. Care to help my bafflement. Speak softly, and carry a big stick. --Franken Kesey 06:53, 7 February 2011 (UTC)


 * 1) Leap Attack allows you to add three damage for every point of attack bonus sacrificed for Power Attack if you succeed on a Jump check to carry you at least 10 feet when you charge or move. Shock Trooper allows you to subtract from your Armor Class instead of your attack bonus when using Power Attack. They're basically considered staples in most charging/Power Attacking builds.


 * 2) Assuming you're going to roll a 10 isn't really fair, since it doesn't factor in the possibility of rolling a one and automatically missing. In order to determine DPR at level 20 (since the target AC is 40), you have to multiply the damage by the probability that you will hit, which can never exceed 0.95 because that says you will hit on anything but a 1. So if your attack roll is at least +39, you just multiply by .95, but when it drops lower than +39, you subtract 0.05 from the probability for each -1 on your attack bonus. So +37 would be 0.85, +32 would be 0.60, etc.


 * 3) This is a charger build to me, and the quintessential charger build usually uses the cavalier prestige class (see Ghostwheel's Knightly Charger, which gets over 1000 damage on its charge. Getting close to that value is pretty good, so that's something to aim for even if you don't get there. It has, however, been pointed out to me that it's possible that this build has another purpose. Attempting to mix roles (such as zone controller and charger) rarely works unless you have Wizard-level stuff. The very nature of Fighter-level material is that it has to be heavily optimized in order to compete in a Rogue-level or Wizard-level game, so you really have to pick a role and stick with it. If you're a charger, be a charger and only a charger; if you're a zone controller, go with that all the way. Optimization is hyperspecialization, not usually making Mary Sues. That's too hard when you're mixing things of different Balance Points.


 * On that same note, the fighter-level stuff doesn't really work as well when put with a Rogue-level build. It seems like you're trying to have this guy do two wholly different things, and it's not working to your advantage. I'm wondering why you seem so insistent on including the smaller size and the Tiny Hammerer levels, since they are distinctly fighter-level (and are listed as such). The Zweireka is a dip, so it's more understandable, but the War Mind also doesn't seem to contribute too much for you.


 * Lastly, I'm not sure my example had the intended effect. I was trying to show that with a properly pre-optimized Rogue-level class (which is what the Halberdier is supposed to be), it is really, really easy to get a high DPR. When you are going to throw such a class into a build, your DPR has to blast all the competition away to really be worth using, or else someone can just do what I did and take the most powerful component class for more damage. This is sort of inherent to all optimized builds, but much moreso in homebrew given the amount of Rogue-level material on this Wiki. If it can't achieve that level, we don't really need it. Unless your build uses only Fighter-level homebrew or something and then had a high DPR, that would be something. As it stands, there isn't much achievement to this since it's too easy to make superior with component classes. - TG Cid 15:56, 7 February 2011 (UTC)


 * 1) Have added the Leap Attack and Shock Trooper feats.


 * 2) Have fixed to show the chance variable.


 * 3) The Tiny hammer level is there to increase weapon size, and to gain Impressive Reach (3.5e Feat). Have removed War Mind. Should I replace the Zodiac Knight levels with Cavalier? If one inclueds AO, average DPR is now 1633.55!!!

Other Issues?
Are there any other issues with this build? --Franken Kesey 23:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC)


 * So this is ready to be put back onto the main page? Will do so if there are no other problems by the end of the day. --Franken Kesey 20:55, 12 February 2011 (UTC)


 * No, it isn't. There are still tons of problem. Find them and fix them. We've gone over them enough times that we shouldn't have to need to hold your hand to do so. Once you're sure they're ALL gone, ask again. --Ghostwheel 22:08, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

48 point buy
What is the scaling for a 48 point buy system? --Franken Kesey 16:50, 19 February 2011 (UTC)