Talk:Intruugin (3.5e Race)

LA 0?
What's a Large creature with a +4 anything doing with LA 0? This doesn't look LA 0. -- Eiji-kun 13:53, 8 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Isn't Large a weakness for a creature with a -4 Strength penalty? --Foxwarrior 19:24, 8 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Like you can't make a large creature based around dex and the like, especially when you get into things like Spiritual Weapon. Just the reach is worth the LA, but... I already said that long ago. --Ghostwheel 20:01, 8 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, this race needs some tweaking/tinkering. The concepts within it need to all work together properly, and they currently don't. A big boost with a dump stat doesn't work. A regular boost and a penalty in an area you care about for the intended target characters does work. I'm not really sure what to say to do to it other than "make the bonuses and penalties appropriate". So, let's just go with that for now until actual mechanics discussion goes further. --Ganteka Future 04:56, 9 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, LA 0. Considering that any class that cares about having a high Int score but doesn't care about a low Str score will actually treat large size as a very massive penalty. Also, yes, it becomes absurd when a character is allowed to completely ignore a particular stat with only a single feat, as with Spiritual Weapon. A more reasonable comparison would be 'large creature based around Dex with Weapon Finesse', at which point there needs to be another source for boosting damage, which is most often found in Sneak Attack. Any class that cares about Sneak Attack, will more often than not, care about hide, in which case, Large size is once again a massive penalty. Also, with -4 Str, the race requires a significant amount of point buy being sunk into Str just in order to allow the character to carry a greatsword or wear armor, and that alone should drive any sane person trying to honestly play the game away from mixing this race with a melee class. I have played this race myself in three games, and one of my players is using it in one of my games. Believe me, as strange as it may sound, the race is not unbalanced. Thank you for the formatting update, by the way, Ganteka. &rarr; Rith (talk) 10:02, 10 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Counterpoint though, most sneak attack isn't done by hide-attack or feint-attack, but rather flank-attack... to which reach is nothing but a boon. Carry around a large rapier or a spiked chain for that 20ft reach, and go to town from afar. -- Eiji-kun 11:48, 10 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Alright to determine if this is LA 0, we're going to look at how it's mechanics stack up to some other comparable LA 0 races, that is, races that players may choose to facilitate a similar character goal. We'll be looking at a couple options, rogues and wizards (for Dex-based and Int-based characters respectively) and see if we can narrow down where the problem areas are. Let's start at the top of the racial traits with the thing that most immediately jumps out at people when looking at races: Ability Scores.
 * So, we've got -4 Strength, +4 Intelligence. Let's focus on the -4 Strength penalty first and talk about Dump Stats. With a significant penalty in an ability score, it basically says "players with characters who focus on this ability go find a different race" since it won't be used for class abilities, tactical usage in combat or important skills. With strength as a dump stat, that basically leaves encumbrance as the only thing to deal with otherwise. Item weight and carrying capacity scale evenly with size, that is to say, a large character's items (armor and weapons) weigh twice as much as those of a medium character, but a large character also can carry twice as much as a medium character. So, characters with a strength-penalty race travel light. They pick light weapons that don't rely on strength (any light one-handed weapon, rapier or any bow is a fine choice, with the spiked chain being the heaviest finesse-able option that has the advantage of extra reach). For the weight of armor, rogue characters are going to be using light armors anyhow. With a low strength of 6, a character is pretty limited to armor choice at low levels (level 1 and 2, essentially), hindering his AC by 1 or 2 more than he could otherwise obtain via weight limitations. At about 3rd level, he can buy that mithral chain shirt with little difficulty (that's pretty standard equipment) and the weight and AC problem of his low strength disappears entirely. These strength and gear limitations of course, only apply to the "rogue"-like character and don't matter at all for most wizards, who don't really use weapons or armor. Now, about that AC problem due to wanting to keep a light load. With a strength of 9 (that is, 13 before racial penalty), he's only going to suffer a penalty from his size to his AC since he can carry the weight of his choice of light armor. So, 12 or lower and the character needs to consider how he approaches combat. Most rogues are "strike first" sorts of guys, relying on their capacity to hit their enemies before they get hit. A rogue who knows his weaknesses and plays to his strengths (like any character who desires self-preservation) is already not going to be hit very often. With his reach, he further ensures that he hits opponents who try to get into melee with him, but we'll get into reach in a bit. Additionally, any rogue or wizard backed up by a party with a tank-character is even less likely to get hit, making those first two levels of slightly lower AC even less of a problem, and the rest of his career with a 1 point AC difference quite minimal as a drawback (but that's due to size, which I'll be getting to shortly).
 * Alright, now for that +4 Intelligence bonus. We need to figure out how big of a boost this really is and if it falls into the area of "fair". Standard races usually cap out at +2 on a bonus to an ability score. There's one commonly mentioned exception, the orc, so let's look at it's ability modifiers. Yes, it gets a +4 bonus, but as far as ability score drawbacks, they outnumber the total bonus and are spread out over 3 ability scores to make at least some effect of the penalty unavoidable (of note, hitting primarily skills and his Will save). Still, that +4 strength on the orc is a pretty sweet deal, and people play orcs just for it (the contributing factor of being an orc is also a reason people play orcs). So, back to that +4 Intelligence bonus. It's safe to say that people will play a race just to get a +4 bonus on a primary stat, and primary among them are those playing a wizard. Bonus spells, increased DCs, extra skill points and modifiers to Int-based skills. That extra +2 Intelligence over other Int-focused races pays off immediately and throughout a character's career. For rogues, the difference is less pronounced, with it amounting to 1 more fully-ranked skill and +1 on all his Int-based skills. Still, he's got that over virtually all his competitors, putting it into "unfair" territory. For either class, it's definitely an associated bonus and one that will get put to use.
 * Now, a Single Big Bonus is never offset by a Single Big Penalty. I shouldn't need to say that, but I'm adding it anyways. Since the Single Big Penalty just becomes a dump stat in this case, you're primarily just getting that Single Big Bonus.
 * The goal here with this demonstration is to show how to best take advantage of your bonuses, while minimizing the effect of your penalties on your character. I think I've demonstrated above that a -4 Strength doesn't present a big problem for the target characters. If it needs to be disputed, that's fine.
 * Now for dissecting what could be done with these ability score modifiers. Common rogue and wizard races might be lightfoot halflings and gray elves respectively. Keep them in mind for the following. To achieve a race that's smart and weak, there's other ways of giving them bonuses and penalties rather than straight ability score bonuses and penalties. The way is through picking out what needs to be boosted that would otherwise be granted. If they're smart, they might get +1 to all Intelligence-based skills and ability checks (completely avoiding giving increased skill points and increased spell DCs and bonus spells). Dissecting what each ability score presents to the target characters and granting bonuses and penalties that matter is a great way to avoid power bloat and dump stats. Without hearing a design goal or intent, I'm not going to make recommendations for a fix at this point.
 * With ability score modifiers set aside for now, we can look at the 800 pound gorilla in the room, that is to say, large size and everything it entails. Now, large size is a mixed bag of tricks. Let's see how it helps rogues and wizards and how it hinders them. A wizard really isn't going to be attacked much, nor will he be attacking, hiding and grappling like regular folk do. He does all his stuff with magic. So only occasionally, of those, will the AC present the biggest problem... or will it? He's got reach, so as long as he's got any sort of threatening thing in hand, melee is minimized as a downside. If he does get into melee, he can always withdraw with his above-average speed or cast defensively. With large size, he's really mainly concerned about being surrounded by more targets than his medium-sized counterparts. Though, living because only 8 targets surrounded you and dying because 12 targets surrounded you probably wasn't going to make a difference anyhow, what with the flanking and wizard d4 HD. For the wizard, he'd have to make fair use of his reach, otherwise large size is just pretty average for him.
 * So, for a roguish fellow, he has to know if he can really afford that -1 AC and -1 attack for that benefit of reach and speed that he'll want to take advantage of. For someone interested in striking first, it's an amazing deal. Attacking him in melee means getting through an attack of opportunity, which could be enough to tip the scales of the combat right there. With that extra speed and reach, he can get to his enemies quicker too, and strike from a safer range. So, for a rogue, large is definitely a benefit, so long as he remembers not to focus primarily on doing things he doesn't excel at (such as hiding, unlike his halfling counterpart). Also, not a big deal, but funny, because he's large, his base weapon damage is higher.
 * Everything else that the intruugin gets is just icing on the cake with that very tasty Will bonus (which will be mostly a +3 total, as enchantments are primarily the group of things that force Will saves).
 * So, how does everything stack up as an LA 0/ECL 1 race compared to other viable options? Well, the intruugin has drawbacks, but the benefits outweigh them, allowing them to outshine their frontrunner SRD competitors. I should also mention that here-say (that is "stuff that happened in a game") doesn't count as evidence for balance for the same reason that test-playing isn't a good measure of balance. There are just too many factors going on in such scenarios to narrow down the pros and cons and how everything fits together. While it's nice to know that the race is usable and didn't noticeably disrupt gameplay, it doesn't tell us if it's on par with where it should be at. Final conclusion is that it's close, but as I mentioned in my first comment, it needs tweaking/tinkering.--Ganteka Future 02:21, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Tweak Time
Approved to do modifications, added -2 Con. The benefits of this race are good indeed, and while it doesn't fit the usual niche of large (that is, melee monsters) it still has useful reach for the obvious caster purpose. I figure, do a warforged and combine the host of benefits with a painful -2 total scores (in Con in particular) which is fitting of the theme. Opening this up for further review, and seeing how things go. Input is welcome, and required citizen friend, or you will have to go to the Happiness Reconfigurment Chamber. -- Eiji-kun 07:03, 12 March 2011 (UTC)