Talk:Flowering Death (3.5e Monster)

Problem
This isn't worth CR 70. It's like a really high hit die version of the tarrasque. You can just blast it from the air and it can't do a thing, and every PC should be flying by level 11, let alone level 70.


 * Yeah, I made this a while back, and you're right, it needs a bit of a revision. Maybe adding on a few SLA's or summat would help in respect to the flying problem. Also, please sign your posts with 4 tidles (4 of the ~ thingies). Thanks for bringing my attention back to this problem. &rarr; Rith (talk) 14:09, October 6, 2009 (UTC)
 * A few SLAs? The thing is supposed to be 2^50th times as powerful as a just epic (level 21) character. It's easy enough to kill the thing at level 21 by just hitting it with a save or die it isn't immune to. All this thing is is a medium sized, big numbered tarrasque.72.148.112.184 22:25, October 6, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I don't even know what the scale is supposed to be like at level 70. In Joke Book games, you're supposed to be able to go around killing gods at levels probably around 40 (see, the class levels they gave them.  They're poorly optimized since you're supposed to kill/outshine them), so you're supposed to be about equally powerful.  This thing is supposed to fight PCs who are a thousand times the combined strength of the D&D pantheon, and should be commensurately powerful.  In other words, your PCs at this level should be expected to go around creating universes.  What does this thing do to challenge them?  Shouldn't they have found a plot gimmick to destroy planes by then, and how does it deal with that?--IGTN 22:44, October 6, 2009 (UTC)


 * Okay, I've already agreed, this creature needs work. Now then, instead of saying 'no-no-no-no-no' and scowling at me at me, why not offer some ideas? Or is that too radicle for your tastes? As for the SLA's, I was thinking more along the lines of '9th level' spells or 'epic level' spells, which would obviously give the thing a bit more a punch than you thought I was talking about. &rarr; Rith (talk) 00:58, October 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * I can't suggest spells unless I know what it's supposed to do. 9th level spells on this thing should be at will, possibly multiple times per round.  I'm dead serious about this.  A 70th level character is completely beyond the point where the game actually splits in half; if you can't deal with recursive Time Stop by then you have no business playing.  Imagine someone trying to use Invisibility when you're at the level when you have a permanent Arcane Sight.  That's a six-level gap.  Anything this monster can pull off with 9th-level spells has almost nine times that gap, so anything it does with those spells will be entirely incidental and treated as such.  Seriously, people have been casting Quickened Wish for more than the entire length of the game before fighting this thing.
 * If you want to keep the monster at all like it is, it needs to have its CR dropped, drastically. If you want it to actually be CR 70, it needs to have some sort of mythic feat that it is supposed to be capable of.  Remember, you can take on armies of people 10 levels lower than you, and you can probably fight gods at around level 40 (although you can two-man Greater Deities at 20 with extreme cheese).  The people who fight this thing can take on armies of people who can themselves individually take on armies of people who, themselves, individually, take on armies of literal D&DG Demigods.  Unless this thing destroys planes of existence with all occupants, save to become a Vestige instead of being destroyed irretrievably, as a standard action or something (I am dead serious about this ability), or something equally, well, epic, it can't be a CR 70 monster.
 * If, on the other hand, you want something for a villain to garden to show off how tough he is and use as an execution chamber, rewrite it as a mortal monster. You can replace some things, like its SR, with outright immunities, if you want to do it that way. --IGTN 06:56, October 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, that certaintly puts in perspective a bit. Though, I wouldn't really call 32 people an 'army', I'd call that more of a 'platoon'. Now, 32 platoons (20 levels lower), that'd be an army. Though, the point still stands that this thing should be ~32768 times stronger than a god. Obviously, this is not the case. I'm seriously gonna have to sit down and rework this thing. Also, as for what I want, I want a plant, that doesn't go around blowing up planets or shredding open the fabric of space-time, but is still virtually impossible to fight at those levels. The "A Note to DM's" part was really made due to situational influences at the time. Everyone around me was preaching 'epic-levels are pointless to play', but I wanted to make a crazy insane creature, for the fun of it. The "A Note to DM's" part was more justifacation for the existance of the thing than anything else. &rarr; Rith (talk) 17:35, October 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * This, with a few SLAs, could be a nice CR 30. There is nothing that is impossible to fight at level 70 unless it is immune to everything (I mean that: EVERYTHING), because it's simply not going to lose to an epic spellcaster. This, with a few 9th/ epic level SLAs at will, could be a pretty good CR 30 or so monster, and still epic.72.148.112.184 03:59, October 11, 2009 (UTC)

Okay instead of pushing the text over even further I'll just type at the bottom.

From the way this creature is described it is an epic creature, but not THAT epic. But this point has been discussed to death from what I've skimmed from the last twenty or so paragraphs.

I highly recommend, if you haven't already, getting you a copy of Immortal's Handbook: Ascension and Immortal's Handbook: Epic Bestiary vol. 1 to help with making this thing WORTH CR 70.

By the way, if it is CR 70 then this thing should never be seen on the material plane, unless you're comfortable with a six-foot tall flower being the spearhead of armageddon. Hey, that's a neat weapon name. But I digress.

Anyway, this thing (once it's redone to be worth CR 70) is tough enough to challenge a party of demigods (going by the IH divine rules, I've personally dismissed WotC's handling of deities as utterly unbalanced trash). And no mortal being should ever be above level/ECL 30-40 -- by then they more than qualify for divinity themselves, whether they want it or not. And any beings above demigod rank should never even think of setting foot on the material plane again -- assuming they can at all, in most campaigns most gods are barred by divine decree from leaving the Outer Planes -- for the same reason adults should never be seen anywhere near a playground. Those gods who can still even relate to mortals (children) get about as much respect from their peers as your average daycare worker, babysitter, or child-trapped-in-an-adults-body.

At CR 70 this thing should have some extremely nasty attacks and abilities just to keep up with the PCs. First, let's look at his full attack. What we have here is an average 660 damage. Puh-leeze. My level 40 fighter can do ten times that much with a full attack if he hits. His poison, however, is quite ouchie. In fact, maybe you're going for more "his hurt is from poison more than painful whipping vines"? What we have here is "ha, my girlfriend's whip hits harder than y... *chokes and dies*" I'd actually recommend toning that back a little... or maybe not, since his enemies are likely immune to poison. Making his poison completely moot. Unless you add something like "this poison is so virulent that those immune to poison are instead treated as having a +10 to their Fort save to resist". Just know that the party cleric will probably just respond with quickened reaching neutralize poison. But that's okay, because he's then not able to cast double-quickened mass heal that round.

That Slow and Steady ability is -- for lack of a better word -- juicy. More actions are king. And I'm sure it will regularly use five to ten free actions a round with its nice Dexterity. I'm not sure it should be an extraordinary ability though, as doing ten times what most people can do in the space of six seconds without bending time is pushing it. Only deific creatures should have that much unearthly agility. Though good on you for making unique abilities instead of being droll and boring like giving it a bunch of SLAs. Seriously, I'm tired of every single monster casting the same bunch of spells. I've had enough of that for the first twenty levels of play, at epic levels I expect something better. Epic is a lot more than high numbers, it's about "HOLY CRAP DID THAT THING JUST DO SOMETHING I'VE NEVER EVEN IMAGINED SOMETHING BEING ABLE TO DO IN D&D!??!"

Extended reach is good, but 200 ft. blindsight is bad. I'm sure Bob the Level-70 Fighter can hit you with his sword from 205 feet away. I'd give this thing blindsight to about a mile or more, so it knows all about you long before you even know you're being "watched". Instead of flight (Flying flowers? Uh, no.) I'd give this thing something to cancel out flight altogether, something like an anti-magic field out to a thousand feet that doesn't hinder its own supernatural abilities (this makes it so mortals don't stand a chance, but gods casting epic spells and swinging around artifact blades and encased in artifact platemail can blithly ignore this) on top of something like:

Tendrilbind (Su): Any being within 2,000 ft. from the flowering death not touching the ground for more than 1 round is subject to poisonous roots that explode from the ground at the flying being like arrows. Targets must make a Reflex save or be violently grabbed and pulled to the ground with astonishing speed, not only taking damage as if they were hit by one of the flowering death's tentacles, but they take maximized falling damage as well. The flowering death's roots keep the target immobilized and taking damage and poison as if the target were being struck by its tentacles until the target can make a successful Escape Artist check or destroy the roots (you can figure out its hit points, DR, AC, etc).

The first person who shouts GET OVER HERE! invites being pelted by empty beer cans.

Its feats seem very wasted (11x improved natural armor!? x16 epic prowess!!?). I know I sound like I'm advertising IH but I can't help it: Ascension has a whole slew of feats made for high level monsters. Not only that, but something this powerful ought to be able to trade some feats out for divine abilities. You could very easily trade out six of those epic prowess feats for the divine ability True Strike (and there's nothing wrong with a DM ignoring preresquisites... but if that bothers you, just add it as a bonus ability). Epic Toughness is lame, trade them out for the epic feat Supreme Toughness (maximum HP per HD) and the divine ability Divine Toughness (use d20s for HD). So instead of 630 base hit points before adding Constitution, he'll have 2800. All for the price of trading out seven of those Epic Toughness feats. If you REALLY want to be a jerk, trade out 36 more feats for a cosmic ability (used by overgods and beings that are to gods what gods are to mortals) like Cosmic Toughness (use d100s for HD) so he has 14,000 base hit points, BEFORE putting in Constitution! A monster with 18,620 hit points won't just keel over when your level 70 wizard sneezes on it. And yes, at these levels, if each and every one of your party members isn't outputting 4-digit damage on each of their turns, they aren't even trying.

Its damage reduction is... I'll just say you ought to replace it with something like 500/- and be done with it. And fast healing AND regeneration at the same numbers each. That is if you want the fight to last more than two rounds. Trust me -- EVERY SINGLE MONSTER needs massive, massive fast healing and impenetratable damage reduction past level 50. It just becomes standard, like spell resistance. Regeneration shouldn't be doled out all the time, just to avoid monotony. Like giving every monster 30-50 at-will SLAs from the same freaking list.

While I rag on the boring, lazy route of handing out a bunch of the same SLAs, making every monster the same, what I DON'T mind are SLAs in the form of epic spells. Yes, incase you weren't aware, epic spells can be made into SLAs. And remember that SLAs have no verbal, somatic, or XP components, even if the spell normally does. So if you design epic spells for use as a SLA, go ahead and give it -200 mitigating factor with 20,000 XP cost that will be gleefully ignored. Ritual costs are ignored as well, but I'd recommend avoiding this just for the sake of too much cheese. Unless it's an epic spell straight from the ELH. This guy, for example, just begs to be "equipped" with Verdigris Tsunami 3/day or even at-will. A custom Pestilence, doing poison instead of disease, fits the flowering death like a glove. Aw hell, make a custom Verdigris Tsunami do poison damage as well. Poison is this guy's schtick -- so much so that Poison Ivy herself worships it as her god -- so go crazy.

It needs more AC. I made a couple of abilities to help with abysmally low touch ACs and attack roll bonuses for epic creatures, and I use one, two or all three depending on how tough I want it to be:

Foresight: It uses its genius-level logical and analytical capabilities on its vast collection of memories as well as on current observations to greatly enhance both, giving it an edge on situations and problem-solving skills bordering prognostication. Because of this, it gains a foresight bonus -- equal to its Intelligence modifier, minimum 1 -- to: attack rolls, armor class, initiative rolls, saving throws to disbelieve illusions, and checks (ability checks, skill checks, etc).

Insight: Its ocean-deep instincts on the art of the dance between predator and prey are honed beyond mortal comprehension, wielding them as the sharpest sword and sturdiest shield. It has an Insight bonus -- equal to its Wisdom modifier, minimum 1 -- to: attack rolls, armor class, and damage with its physical weaponry (natural and wielded, melee and ranged) and certain extraordinary abilities such as trample, rend, constrict, etc.

Luck: Its overpowering sense of self forces fate into favortism. As such, it has a luck bonus -- equal to its Charisma modifier, minimum 1 -- to: attack rolls, armor class, saving throws, and spell resistance.

Of course, you can customize exactly what gets these bonuses -- and change the flavor text to match your monster. I just didn't want them all to give to everything like a divine bonus. If you do -- as well as completely redo its AC -- its armor class would look something like:

145 (+22 Dex, +15 deflection, +6 divine, +2 foresight, +5 insight, +15 luck, +70 natural), touch 75, flat-footed 123

Hmm... maybe its mental ability scores need to go up.

Speaking of divine bonuses, this flower begs to be given a deity template from Ascension. If that's the case its hit dice should be lowered considerably... or you can keep that many HD and just give it a "lower-level" deity template to give it a handful of goodies that don't completely overshadow everything else it has. (so instead of saying "This is a greater deity flower" it's a "devastatingly-powerful flower that also has the powers of a demigod"). The demigod template by itself is worth +20 CR, so that's something to look into.

Mmm.. I think that's enough to start with. Happy monster-making! --Mnfcp 21:01, May 6, 2010 (UTC)