Talk:Skill Before Grit (3.5e Trait)

Ratings
== Drawback ==

I would also add a -1 penalty to DCs and caster level (minimum 1). A buffer or healer would still get this at almost no drawback, but at least it stops all wizards from getting it just for extra skill points without taking any sort of real negative. --Ghostwheel (talk) 11:01, 9 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I will consider it, it a good idea. --Leziad (talk) 11:45, 9 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'll second that idea to a point. Something needs to be done so that this can apply more evenly to a wider array of characters. --Ganteka Future (talk) 02:14, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Would a penalty to Concentration checks fit better?--Ideasmith (talk) 03:32, 2 January 2014 (UTC)


 * All of your complaints/advice are contradictory... traits and flaws are almost designed to specialize a character. The player is going to avoid anything that would conflict with that specialization, it's the DM's job to make it a little harder for a player to sit back and pull off those buffer/healer positions as it is... So adding alternative penalties will simply make this unusable as a whole... I'd say it's fine as-is.. my reasons you ask? fighters/barbarians shouldn't want all these skill points, rogues/bards don't need them, Druids/paladins/clerics are balanced with this in all situations and sorcerers/wizards take the negatives to ray spells and finally get some good skill points. I'll agree that in an unchallenged buffing/healing position that this is powerful, but it's not unbalanced in any way...--Snafusam (talk) 09:06, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * '''"fighters/barbarians shouldn't want all these skill points"


 * The poor 2+Int fighter is dying for skill points. Maybe less so the barbarian, but fights certainly want.  Casters don't care, ray spells are but a small part of their balanced breakfast, and even with penalty they're unlikely to miss touch spells.  The wizard in particular needs no extra skills, being Int SAD, though the arguement of the sorcerer is plenty valid. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 09:19, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * my bad, the fighter i don't play much so i forgot just how badly his lack of skill points hurt him... and the wizard, i agree he's at some times overflowing with skill points for his class... Caster's will only care "if" they take this trait.--Snafusam (talk) 09:26, 3 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I made changes, I buffed the bonus a little since the penalty is pretty harsh. --Leziad (talk) 01:20, 5 January 2014 (UTC)


 * How does this negatively affect characters who focus on buffing allies to as strong a degree as +2 skill points per level benefits the character? --Ghostwheel (talk) 01:35, 5 January 2014 (UTC)


 * -1 caster level mean lesser duration? Which hurt them a little sure, but the skill point sin't that much of a huge boon. I mena it make the character more versatile in specific situation but unless you use Tome of Prowess or something skills still stay pretty damn useless (or godly depending on the skill chosen, but the number of skill points you get don't affect that). --Leziad (talk) 01:48, 5 January 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't see Ghostwheel's point. If this trait gave skill bonuses that boosted them beyond what would normally be possible, I would understand. But more skill points doesn't mean you suddenly can have a +30 to UMD at level 3; you're still limited to the normal HD+3 ranks. Sure, you have more skills up front at low levels, but low levels is also where that -1 penalty hurts the most. Seems balanced to me. Spanambula (talk) 02:13, 5 January 2014 (UTC)


 * If skill points didn't matter at all, why even take this? Of course they matter. They mean higher checks, more skill tricks, easier time getting into high-skill prereq PrCs, and more. However, for such a wide range of benefits, similar drawbacks must occur from a trait. The wide range of penalties are certainly good, the only type of character that benefits entirely from this trait without taking any sort of penalties is a buffer, which is why I brought it up. That's my point. --Ghostwheel (talk) 22:45, 5 January 2014 (UTC)


 * You can only get 1 skill trick every other level. Beside how would you nerf buffers anyway? The duration of pretty all their spell is already reduced by one unit by this trait. --Leziad (talk) 22:58, 5 January 2014 (UTC)


 * It's true it'd be hard. How about something like halving the duration on any abilities you use that target yourself or allies? I think that would be a decent place to start brainstorming something for them. That's the only thing that comes to mind that doesn't get too over-complicated. --Ghostwheel (talk)


 * I didn't say anything like "skill points don't matter at all," how did you even get that from what I said. I just don't see this as a "wide range of benefits;" you're JUST getting skill points. You take penalty to attack and damage (hurts pretty much everyone who actively participates in combat), and spell DCs and caster levels (hurts everyone who magically participates in combat, directly or indirectly, plus any out-of combat casting). You cannot get a more broad range of penalties. Increasing the penalty any more would mean NO ONE would ever take trait because it would not be worth taking that many drawbacks just for 2 skill points per level. Spanambula (talk) 23:45, 5 January 2014 (UTC)


 * Another option could be that you take an additional -2 to CL for the purpose of having effects on allies dispelled. And the downside I proposed above would hurt no one but the kinds of characters that this trait barely affects. --Ghostwheel (talk) 00:30, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

It already caster level -1, which nerf powerful buff like Owl Insight. Pure buffers (as rare as they are) are mostly wizards, who being intelligence based do not need extra skills. Cleric are harmed by all four penalties and so are druids. Sorcerers may not have it too hard but I don't mind buffing them a little anyway, they are terribly unskilled. Wizards who mostly buff are also harmed since this make their SoD and SoS much less effective. I don't know which class you are referring to when you say buffers, but I am pretty sure all of them suffer to one degree or another. Beside skills are nearly worthless with very few exceptions and this trait does nothing to UMD and Diplomacy. --Leziad (talk) 00:47, 6 January 2014 (UTC)