User talk:Aelaris/Mauler (3.5e Class)

Ratings
== Feedback ==

--DanielDraco 18:12, 21 January 2011 (UTC), comments (in bold) by Aelaris 22:05, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You might also want to make provisions for a Mauler who has bite/claw attacks from another source and for Maulers who lack a mouth suitable for biting or have fewer or more than two hands. -- I tried my best here, but the class is really built for humanoids with jaws. Any recommendations?
 * In Rend, "whenever a mauler hits with two consecutive claw attacks in a round" might be too vague. As written, those attacks can be made against two different opponents, and they can both miss, but the rend damage will still happen. Also, because of the potential for it to be two opponents, "she may automatically rend the opponent" is unclear as to which opponent. -- I fixed it to be for a single target, and I think that should clear up the "which" problem. However... is it still written such that both attacks could miss?  I couldn't figure out where that interpretation stems from.
 * I assume that Lunge for the Throat and Leaping Pounce are both meant to be used only with the natural attacks; if that is the case, it should say so explicitly. -- Changed Lunge for the Throat.  No particular reason to change Leaping Pounce, IMO - it makes sense, and if you want to jump shorter by a few dozen feet and not make as many attacks and have no entrance to grapple... well, that's just a trade-off.
 * "1d6 points of ability damage to the target's Strength, Dexterity, Constitution." Is that supposed to be "or" or "and"?
 * I would make Fearsome Roar not effect deaf opponents. -- It's already listed as "Sonic" ...is that enough?
 * "once a creature masters its fear, it will not be affected by her roar again." Ever? -- Good point. I'll have to think about it.  For that day would be fair, but ever also makes sense, and leads to interesting things with recurring folks.  I'll think some about it.
 * "increasing the strength bonus to damage by one half" should be "increasing the strength modifier to damage by one half her strength modifier". -- '''Done. Also made a two-handed note there.  Hope there's not some weird character option combination that breaks that down the middle.  Only aiming for power attack nonsense.
 * "only needs 4 hours of sleep per day"
 * As for Vitality, regaining lost temporary hit points simply does not work. -- Could you explain this? Wait, I think it's just the wrong word.  Tell me if it's still a problem.
 * Undying makes no allowance for mutilation which prevents life, such as removing the head; after all, she lacks the regeneration to regrow body parts. Added... well, not a regeneration clause, though that wouldn't be un-fitting.  But said they can get back limbs and stuff.  I wonder if some village of cannibals keeps a mauler corpse around for a constant supply of food?
 * You have a few extra line breaks scattered throughout that should probably be cleaned up. -- I've been putting paragraphs between abilities, and extra-large paragraphs between levels. Worried about it being some massive block of lines.
 * While "their" can be used as a gender-neutral third person singular pronoun, it shouldn't be if at all avoidable. -- I changed the ones in the class abilities. I'm not sure about the ones in the summary, and particularly in the Lore section.  Thoughts?
 * You need to keep the gender and person persistent throughout. You use, at various points, "he", "she", "it", and "you". -- I'll work on this. Male or female?
 * "but otherwise ability is the same as SRD:Improved Grab." -- I got rid of the SRD:... was that the problem?
 * "Evasion cannot be used if the mauler is armor."
 * "less HD" should, in all instances, be "fewer HD". "Less" is for uncountable quantities. Similarly, references to greater HD should instead refer to more HD. -- HD feels like a continuum. Maybe I substitute the word "HD" for "Badassness" in my head.  I think I fixed them all, can't be sure.
 * "Mauler" should always be capitalized. -- Just like Electric Mage and Word Warrior? Classes are not capitalized in the SRD descriptions, and I went through a good deal of trouble to make the mauler lower-case.  I would love to have it be a Mauler, but it's just a mauler.  Problematic for those verber classes, really.


 * I do not agree with your last bullet point. Mauler is a not a proper noun. Mialee the wizard, Liddia the rogue, Soveliss the ranger, etc. -- Jota 18:29, 21 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll back that up. Classes should be lower case within sentences (just like races). Not a big deal, a lot of people goof that one. --Ganteka Future 19:23, 21 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I goofed on that one for my two other classes. I fixed it all for this one with some case-sensitive notepad find&replace.  Thanks for all the feedback, DD - I'll go on a fixing rampage... after lunch. -- Aelaris 20:57, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixes applied. What else? -- Aelaris 22:05, 21 January 2011 (UTC)


 * To answer the male/female/gender neutral bit: it is best to just pick a gender and go with it. The Player's Handbook picked the gender of the sample character (wizard is female, monk is female, fighter is male). --Aarnott 23:02, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Damage continuum.
Trying to work out the math on this. Assuming 18 strength, splitting Wild Vigor 50/50 with Con. Example character was a half-orc with stats of 18, 10, 18, 10, 8, 6.

Level One: Just naturally armed. No pounce yet.

(BAB+Str, 1d8+Str), (BAB+Str, 1d8+Str), (BAB+Str-5, 1d6+[Str/2]) = (+5, 1d8+4), (+5, 1d8+4), (+0, 1d8+2). Probably only (+5, 1d8+4), unless full attacking happens.

Level Two: Pounce

(BAB+Str, 1d8+Str), (BAB+Str, 1d8+Str), (BAB+Str-5, 1d6+[Str/2]) = (+6, 1d8+4), (+6, 1d8+4), (+1, 1d8+2). Better on the charge, of course (+2 to-hit), and full attacking is not unexpected.

Level Three: Assuming +2 to Strength, +1 to Constitution, Rend starts.

(BAB+Str, 1d8+Str), (BAB+Str, 1d8+Str), (BAB+Str-5, 1d6+[Str/2]), (On two claw-hits, 1d8+[1.5xStr]) = (+9, 1d8+5), (+9, 1d8+5), (+4, 1d8+2), (On two claw-hits, 1d8+7). Rending heavily affected by chance to hit.

Level Four: Improved Grab and Rake, assuming +1 str

(BAB+Str, 1d8+Str), (BAB+Str, 1d8+Str), (BAB+Str-5, 1d6+[Str/2]), (On two claw-hits, 1d8+[1.5xStr]), on a bite and grapple: (BAB+Str, 1d8+Str), (BAB+Str, 1d8+Str) = (+10, 1d8+5), (+10, 1d8+5), (+5, 1d8+2), (On two claw-hits, 1d8+7), on a bite and grapple: (+10, 1d8+5), (+10, 1d8+5). Raking also very dependent on hit chance. Now can grapple things, and is probably better when in a grapple.

Level Five: Multiattack, Magic/Adamantine weapons

(BAB+Str, 1d8+Str), (BAB+Str, 1d8+Str), (BAB+Str-2, 1d6+[Str/2]), (On two claw-hits, 1d8+[1.5xStr]), on a bite and grapple: (BAB+Str, 1d8+Str), (BAB+Str, 1d8+Str) = (+11, 1d8+5), (+11, 1d8+5), (+9, 1d8+2), (On two claw-hits, 1d8+7), on a bite and grapple: (+11, 1d8+5), (+11, 1d8+5). Bite gets better, dragging up the raking damage and grapple chance. Also much better against DR.

Level Six: Maul the Helpless, Predatory Focus assumed to always be on current target, assuming +1 Str (22), and +2 Con (21) from Wild Vigor

(BAB+Str+2, 1d8+Str+2), (BAB+Str+2, 1d8+Str+2), (BAB+Str-2+2, 1d6+[Str/2]+2), (On two claw-hits, 1d8+[1.5xStr]+2), on a bite and grapple: (BAB+Str+2, 1d8+Str+2), (BAB+Str+2, 1d8+Str+2) = (+14, 1d8+8), (+14, 1d8+8), (+12, 1d8+5), (On two claw-hits, 1d8+10), on a bite and grapple: (+14, 1d8+8), (+14, 1d8+8). Massive damage jump from Pred Focus and Wild Vigor kicking in at the same time. Wow.

Level Seven:Leaping Pounce, Lunge for the Throat

(BAB+Str+2, 1d8+Str+2), (BAB+Str+2, 1d8+Str+2), (BAB+Str-2+2, 1d6+[Str/2]+2), (On two claw-hits, 1d8+[1.5xStr]+2), on a bite and grapple: (BAB+Str+2, 1d8+Str+2), (BAB+Str+2, 1d8+Str+2) = (+15, 1d8+8), (+15, 1d8+8), (+13, 1d8+5), (On two claw-hits, 1d8+10), on a bite and grapple: (+15, 1d8+8), (+15, 1d8+8). Damage increases by up to five crits. Don't know how to do the math of this one, really. Maybe i should move Pred Focus down to here? Or is improving crit range enough?

Level Eight:Grievous Wounds, +1 str

(BAB+Str+2, 1d8+Str+2), (BAB+Str+2, 1d8+Str+2), (BAB+Str-2+2, 1d6+[Str/2]+2), (On two claw-hits, 1d8+[1.5xStr]+2), on a bite and grapple: (BAB+Str+2, 1d8+Str+2), (BAB+Str+2, 1d8+Str+2) = (+16, 1d8+8), (+16, 1d8+8), (+14, 1d8+5), (On two claw-hits, 1d8+10), on a bite and grapple: (+16, 1d8+8), (+16, 1d8+8). Another weird intangible buff. Sometimes a game-ender against things with a low physical stat, though.

Level Nine: Predator Strike, Wild Vigor (+2 Str (25), +1 Con)

(BAB+Str+2, 1d8+Str+2), (BAB+Str+2, 1d8+Str+2), (BAB+Str-2+2, 1d6+[Str/2]+2), (On two claw-hits, 1d8+[1.5xStr]+2), on a bite and grapple: (BAB+Str+2, 1d8+Str+2), (BAB+Str+2, 1d8+Str+2) = (+18, 1d8+9), (+18, 1d8+9), (+16, 1d8+5), (On two claw-hits, 1d8+11), on a bite and grapple: (+18, 1d8+9), (+18, 1d8+9). Pred Strike is another intangible thing. I think it's pretty devastating, but can't say for sure. Basically double damage and stat damage on a surprise attack. Wild Vigor bumps things up again.

Level Ten: Pred Focus again

(BAB+Str+3, 1d8+Str+3), (BAB+Str+3, 1d8+Str+3), (BAB+Str-2+3, 1d6+[Str/2]+3), (On two claw-hits, 1d8+[1.5xStr]+3), on a bite and grapple: (BAB+Str+3, 1d8+Str+3), (BAB+Str+3, 1d8+Str+3) = (+20, 1d8+10), (+20, 1d8+10), (+18, 1d8+6), (On two claw-hits, 1d8+12), on a bite and grapple: (+20, 1d8+10), (+20, 1d8+10). Pred Focus looks a lot like Wild Vigor to strength. But with different skillz!

Level Eleven:

Level Twelve:

Level Thirteen:

Level Fourteen:

Level Fifteen:

Level Sixteen:

Level Seventeen:

Level Eighteen:

Level Nineteen:

Level Twenty:

Ghostwheel's Thoughts, and issues for discussion.
Talked with Ghostwheel on the IRC, and he had some things to say on the class. Not convinced changes are what I want, but I thought I might put them here for consideration and keeping track of them.


 * Why do you feel the need for +70' at level 20? Something along what the scout gets might be more appropriate.

This comment would have been a bit more helpful if I could find the scout. Anyway, +70 speed is a bit wonky, as it lets you (a human) run at 73 kph, or 45 miles per hour. Which is pretty fast, but assuming that real world humans never get past level 5, then a real world mauler is not faster than 22.5 miles per hour. Not sure if it is game-breaking, but does allow for some hit-and-run and scouting sorts of things. Helps you sneak fast, too. Various things. Helps the Leaping Pounce a bunch, too.


 * Okay, just Naturally Armored breaks rogue-level IMO. Example at level 20: 10 + 10 (Con) + 8 (bracer of armor) + 10 (def+natural) + 7 (dex) = 45 AC, Which is considerably more than the guy in full plate.

To be honest, had not thought of Bracers of Armor, or magic fake armor other than someone casting Mage Armor on the Mauler. Probably going to take his suggestion, and make Naturally Armored an armor bonus or a natural armor bonus that does not stack with armor bonuses. Ghostwheel's numbers are pretty off, partly due to natural vigor, and partly due to a rather massive assessment of how much Dex a Mauler would have. But those two should cancel out. Other IRC folks say that 45 AC is "solid" for rogue-level, but then went on to say that GW was forgeting the +5 ring of deflection and the +4 amulet of natural armor, etc. And then worried about some feat named Shock Trooper, which apparently trades AC for damage or something. So basically I'm just confused. Naturally armored as an armor bonus. Will be interesting.


 * You may want to make the armed damage scale like the fiendish brute does iirc  Looks very low. Check this out: Not dependent on size, deals 1d6 damage at level 1 for claws, +1d6 every 2 levels, 1d8 for bite, +1d8 every 2 levels So at level 5, you've got 3d6 claws and 3d8 bite

First off, I cannot find the fiendish brute that has that damage scaling. Second, this was before him reading too far into the class. So not sure about how valid his point is. Don't know if he read the damage progression thing above on this talk page. But something to keep in mind if other things get nixed.


 * I'd also bump Pounce up, or people will dip into the class just for that

My immediate response is that power-gamers would just dip into some totem barbarian thing I read about, since that was one less level. Ghostwheel make the very good point that weaker cheese is easily still cheese. I pointed out that it only works for natural weapons. Ghostwheel responded with a slew of classes that I had not heard about, and think are psionic. Point is, more classes use natural weapons than I thought, and people might dip for cheese. Something to worry about. Not sure where to put pounce, though. It's one of the more signature traits of the class. Pushing it up a level would leave people at second level feeling kind of empty. Maybe. I don't know. Where do people think it should go?


 * Predator's Advantage is dumb, and I would remove it It's a strictly vertical enhancement that's just there to say, "I'm a Mary Sue who's better than everyone else" and isn't flavorful or interesting in the least.

Ghostwheel does have a point - it is strictly vertical, and more or less boring. I do feel it has some good flavor to it, though--the primal edge of a mauler--but... don't know. Mechanic-wise, it's my Initiative bonus, grapple bonus, and misc bonus all rolled into one. I'm pretty sure Mary Sues have to actually be good at things - outside of the obvious applications, in a variety of situation it just make the mauler less horrible. Of course, there's got to be room for improvement. Just not sure what to do instead.


 * I'd also remove Instinctive Dodge, Naturally Armored is enough of a boost in AC if I'm reading this class right.

This gets back to the AC argument on the chat. I can't wrap my brain around this without knowing a lot more of the crazy interactions that are out there, so I really have no idea. I put this in because someone told me that 10 + modifier + half-level should be balanced. Oh well. Help please?


 * Wild Vigor is ugh, you shouldn't just raise stuff. It's another boring boost

Basically the same argument as Pred Advantage. I feel that if there is ever a class for whom it would be in flavor to get boosts to physical stats, that class would be the Mauler. However, Ghostwheel is right in that it's just a boring boost.


 * I'd also scale Resistant Hide back a bit

This is funny, because just earlier I was being told that DR of ConMOD really doesn't matter much compared to the damage things dish out. I might have to mess around with the placement if people are concerned about it. It's mostly to give the mauler a bit of help against getting swarmed by weaker dudes, since he's really best at 1vs1.


 * Ghostwheel >Instinctive Skills is like Predator's Advantage Just there for the sake of Mary Sue-ness, feels like

Being a quarter as good at all skills as people who actually put full ranks into thing does not seem generally over-powered or able to make the Mauler anything other than less-bad at them. Getting half-skill in class abilities makes the class skill list actually matter a bit (balance! He's actually good at balance!), which reinforces his out-of-combat skill set, but is still much worse than the skills he specializes in. I feel that this adds flavor in reinforcing what he is good at, but Ghostwheel does not agree. Maybe I'm missing something.


 * Destructive Blows is also dumb; I'd scale it. Start with magic, then silver or w/e, and build up to whatever you need Just giving it all automatically feels ugh

''I decided to start with adamantine for flavor reasons (mauler likes to break things), and magic to keep up with everyone who picked up a magic weapon by this point in the game. Other than that, I don't really care much about it, and just want to keep it on par. Other than the two already listed, if people would like to break it down into the order that they should come in, I would be very pleased. I really have no idea, though, and was told that the Monk was a bad example.

That's all for now. Let me know what you folks think. -- Aelaris 07:26, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Naturally Armed
If my character starts off with say, 4 arms, do they all become naturally armed or only two of these? i would like to say they all would as he is still naturally armed. Pun intended but with this little alter would also alter other ability of the mauler.

Also the ability Predatory Focus has a copy and paste error "Additionally, the ranger gains a +2 bonus..."

Balthuras 13:20, 20 February 2011 (UTC)