Talk:Rifter (3.5e Class)

Comments
The good save / poor save thing isn't discussed. If you're not going to assign them, which is weird but not unheard of, you need to explain it as a class feature.

Why a base class and not a prestige class with a very weak prereq, like "Character Level 5"? That allows the possibility of updating the Bonus feature to be something more interesting, like advancing a class feature you already have to have. The current working of Bonus is also weird, in that you get the feature but may elect to defer the benefit for a while in case you got this class before anything else. I get why it was done, but it seems weird. It would also be unnecessary in a Prestige Class setup, since you'd be guaranteed to have other character features to advance.

As to the actual abilities, touch attacks are nice enough. One round per day to start is pretty slim though, particularly if you get this class at a higher level when you could be carrying wands with similar effects. Why not allow this on natural weapons though? Don't want unarmed monks taking it?

The teleport effect is nice enough as well, and it starts off in a good movement place for mid levels so it's probably fine. The scaling is weird though, particularly after you get to 5. Since it's only particularly useful for getting to an enemy (since you provoke on leaving), you have to have line of sight to use it, and it doesn't count as a charge... it's kind of an ambush or hit & run tactic for someone with non-charge burst damage. But it's easy to shut down (darkness, illusion, closing a door, curtains on the windows, etc.), doesn't give a full-attack until level 5... yeah. The scaling is also very meh, particularly when it goes to Character Level as a swift action. Yes, that lets you close and do a full attack from charge+ distance, but it's basically a teleport pounce. And when you get that up to run+ distance, plus another move action for more, it just seems excessive. I understand wanting distance scaling, but it seems that a base with a smaller scaling (like Close range) would be a better fit. All in all, it's not my favorite ability here, though that might be a preference for a shorter, more consistent, and more often usable teleport over the current version.

I'm not sure why you're working with Class Level instead of Character Level before level 5 here though. It does weird things with your daily uses, and it's a very boring reason to take the class to 5. I get that you don't want dipping... but the current formulation makes me not want to take it at all because it's not worth 5 levels. There's just not enough here to justify it.

As to balance... I'm not sure it's high. Since it's a base class it should be evaluated from 1, and at that level you get 1 round of touch attacks per day with crap BAB and no other offensive features. You're probably worse than a monk. At 2 you get +2 BAB, another round of touch attacks... and nothing else. Definitely worse than a fighter, not sure about still being worse than a monk. At 3 you get to teleport once per day, and another BAB and another round of touch attacks, and nothing else. Maybe as good as a fighter, but I still doubt it. You still suck at 5, because you mostly get more of the same. You might be able to stretch the class to relevance at 8 with judicious applications of other levels (the mark of a moderate balance class), but you've set more than half of your levels on fire for benefits you can barely use. Taking this later in your career is the same thing, since you're so use limited in what you can do before the capstone. Even if you have synergistic abilities, you get to use them in about 1 fight per day. 3+ levels in a class for benefits you use in 1 fight is crap. It's nowhere near enough to close the gap you refer to, costs way too much for what it gives you, and still doesn't help close much of the utility gap.

I think it would work better without daily limits entirely (switching to a per round action cost for touch attacks and teleports instead), and a drop to 3 levels long like a racial paragon style class. Yeah, that makes it dippable for touch attacks, but there's plenty of ways of getting those already anyway. If you want it to still be a 5 level class, it needs more abilities. A built in portable hole style storage thing and a group teleport seem like good fits (assuming not a base class, because level minimums on those), even if they're daily limited or take 10 minutes to pull off. Transposition swaps would also work too, or pulling creatures to you (both with save) to help allies who need to retreat or swap out. Passwall style larger insubstantiality effects to get through walls you can't see over, or steal from sealed safes. There's so much you could do with teleports and phase changes to make an interesting class, and I'm sad that you've barely touched on any of it here.

Hopefully there's something useful in there for you. - Tarkisflux Talk 18:38, 13 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The saving throws part is mentioned directly above the table.
 * Saving Throws: A Rifter selects two good saving throws and one poor saving throw.


 * Also it being a prestige class with a pathetic requirement is not worth doing at all. Prestige classes are a problematic game mechanic anyway and are almost always terrible, and are more complicated than they're worth. There's no real point in doing it that way. You're right about monks however, I'll explicitly note that it can apply to natural and unarmed attacks. Yes, it does start off slim, but being able to resolve melee and ranged attacks as touch is quite powerful and should grow somewhat slowly. I'll have it be an effect on the character rather than the weapon since that makes it a bit more fair towards two-weapon users. I might just drop the Bonus completely and make it three levels, but I've not fully tested that possibility. Teleportation at a level that low can be a bit gamebreaking, but at higher levels it can be obsolete, which ties into not making it prestige.


 * As for teleport being line-of-sight, this is mostly for balance reasons. It is easy to shut down, but it's also easy to counter darkness, closed curtains, and so on. I'll consider inverting the range and uses.


 * As for Class Level to Character Level, it's just part of my design philosophy that someone's capability in something they use should continue to get better without devoting levels to it. Yes, it does a few weird things, but it keeps the class current for when the scale and duration of battles get higher and higher without having to add additional abilities.


 * I'll go over the class later tonight with those in mind. I'll see about making it work more like a daily allowance and make it three levels instead. It's more meant to be an auxiliary class than anything.


 * LenKagetsu (talk) 15:44, 15 July 2014 (UTC)


 * There are several reasons to do it as a prestige class with a pathetic requirement actually. By restricting the benefits of the class to a minimum level greater than 1, eliminating the possibility of putting up an ability so early that it becomes 'game breaking'. You can just write versions of these abilities that are appropriate for a 5th or 8th or whatever level character and hand them out, rather than trying to make it equally functional at level 1. It also allows you to rewrite the Bonus ability so that it advances class features rather than simple numbers, since the previous levels ensure something to advance. The last reason (which is admittedly small) is that people are used to rather small prestige classes, but not used to tiny base classes. I expect you still won't want to, but since I have no idea why you think them a problematic game mechanic I can't address that portion of your concern (I know why I think them problematic, but that's not helpful). Them being mostly terrible is hardly a reason to not make one that isn't crap though.


 * While I'm not going to argue against the idea of devoting additional levels to a thing to get better at it, there is a difference between "getting better at casting major image by getting more bard levels" and "getting better at being a bard by getting more bard levels". The current form of the abilities here is explicitly the former, and a linear scaling of abilities without also getting new abilities is never going to close the gap you mention wanting to close. There are all of 2 or maybe 3 abilities in here, over 5 levels, while a bard gets a half dozen or more of substantially increasing power over the same levels. You're not going to close that gap with a patch like this, particularly one with so few levels, but you'd succeed better if you gave more stuff as you advanced rather than just getting better at old stuff. It also provides a stronger reason to stay with the class IMO.


 * The scaling problem is also the same as taking bard 1 when you're level 6 - you're getting low powered stuff at a higher level. That sort of worked in 2e dual classing (not much better though), but it's a hard choice in a 3e multiclassing setup because you have to spend so many levels to see a payoff. And here you're spending multiple levels to see a benefit in more than one or two combats a day. Sucking now for power later is a bad call to make in a strongly level oriented system, whatever level you're trying to do it at. Making the character explicitly pay for the scaling, as you are doing here, is an endorsement of that situation and seems another failure to close the gap you talk about wanting to close. It makes the class a power sacrifice at higher levels, and there's still very little to recommend it to lower ones. If you insist on sticking with something like it, I'd suggest a multiclassing benefit / amelioration similar to the ToB classes give for their initiator levels (example: every two levels in not this class count as one level in this class for determining uses and range).


 * I look forward to seeing what you decide to do with it though. - Tarkisflux Talk 18:12, 15 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I dropped two of the empty levels, and made some minor revisions, including making the teleport an At Will ability with a shorter range and allowed it to switch places with an ally. The latter ability however wont be of any real use until higher levels but they still have a lite version that can come in handy. I also gave it one good save instead since multiclassing does crazy things to saving throws and good BaB. I may decide to allow Immediate-Action usage or a means to intercept other teleportation if I think of a way to make that work smoothly. Decided to leave it as a base class however, since the only benefit of it being Prestige would be no XP penalty. Instead I implemented that benefit. I also made Immaterial Weapon be an effect on the Rifter instead of on individual weapons to better accommodate those with natural weapons and dual weapons. I will rewrite it for clarity at some point.


 * Thanks for your input, I'll probably give these revisions some playtesting next time I'm dragged into a d20 game. LenKagetsu (talk) 12:04, 16 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Would you mind going over your dislike of Prestige Classes? I find it very odd. - Tarkisflux Talk 17:18, 16 July 2014 (UTC)


 * It's just a pointless mechanic that taxes skillpoints, feats, and so on, which punishes classes with low skillpoints or limited feats, and often has them taking feats that are just plain bad. That and a nonsensical rule that says "You no longer meet the requirements, you can no longer use the class" even if it's a mundane class like Assassin or Duelist which is just straight-up bad design that, again, punishes the player if they decide to respec or some other circumstance happens. In addition, the sweet spot of 3e is in the level 6-10 range (varies slightly depending on who you ask) and you can't take a prestige until level 6, meaning while leveling it, you're in the territory where the game's scaling starts to go completely out of whack and would honestly be better off sticking with what you have. Just one of 3e's many messed-up mechanics overcomplicating the game. I know a few of these can be handwaved, but that doesn't allow for flawed design.LenKagetsu (talk) 21:32, 16 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The prereq parts of that complaint I generally agree with, though it's odd that you hate prereqs but also reject the idea of having a trivial prereq like "character level 5" that completely avoids your two stated problems with them. There's no tax with that, no bad feats to pick up, and no respec restrictions. It makes the prereq complaint seem irrelevant, as it apparently doesn't matter whether they're stringent or easy, relevant or crap.


 * It's just less hassle that way. -LK


 * The sweet spot argument is a bit more weird though. If a prestige class offers crap, you obviously don't look at it anymore and stick with what you have. But if it offers relevant abilities for the level that you can get them, why is it better to stay with what you already get? Surely taking a new base class at those levels is worse, since it offers abilities that are likely less relevant than what you'd get by sticking with your current class or ones with a level gate in front of them. And that's all a prestige class is, a class with a level gate in front of it (often in the form of assorted prereqs that you can't meet before that level).


 * It's more I've not seen games go beyond that level and they tend to pale in comparison with base classes unless you do crazy optimization which is its own can of worms. -LK


 * I get that this applies to lots of previously designed prestige classes, but I don't understand why the take away was "don't use prestige classes" rather than "build better prestige classes". Not that it's really relevant to the current article anymore or anything, it just still strikes me as weird. Thanks for answering though. - Tarkisflux Talk 03:17, 17 July 2014 (UTC)


 * They just offer no real edges above core classes -LK
 * Level gating is a real edge, even if it's one you don't care about because of its irrelevance to your playstyle. - TF


 * On a more constructive note, you've left off a limit on Teleportation. Is this intentional? And I'm not clear on what "spending twice as much of your movement allowance" means for the place swapping trick. If they have to be within half of your normal range or you have to spend two move actions to do it, you should probably just say those things instead. - Tarkisflux Talk 03:27, 17 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Clarified it to be within half of one's teleportation range. I also decided to drop the daily limit since I sliced down its range quite harshly, but the average spellcaster will still be rofflestomping in terms of range and uses per day. There are points where movement is faster than teleportation and vice-versa due to several means to enhance one's movement speed, but ultimately the ability wins out in the end by being able to cover 360ft as a full-movement+swift at level 20, which is pretty tough to beat. I'll be giving it some testing and comparisons to similarly-leveled class abilities to see if the range should be further adjusted. Thanks again for your encouragement and contribution. In your personal opinion though, should it have one good save or two good saves?LenKagetsu (talk) 12:53, 17 July 2014 (UTC)


 * It could have two good saves, but it should probably have them defined at that point. Reflex (because if any class has an excuse to stand in a fireball and not feel it, it's this one), and then whatever other one you want. I like Will in this case, but YMMV. - Tarkisflux Talk 18:12, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Ouch
Brilliant energy weapon at level one, dimension door at level 3, and no other real class abilities- as a 5-level base class? Really?


 * Revised edition- what Tarkisflux said.


 * Brilliant Energy only ignores Armor and Shield bonus, making it completely useless against just about everything in the monster manual along with inability to harm undead and constructs, making it nothing more than an overpriced torch. Dimension Door at level 1 beats Lv20 Teleport by a landslide. Besides, it's still less powerful than a level in wizard overall. Especially since Lv1 wizards get Expeditious Retreat which boosts movement speed by 30. LenKagetsu (talk) 13:04, 17 July 2014 (UTC)