Talk:Halfling Hurler (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

Bonus Feats
- 5/19/10 Even if this ruling is correct, which I can't tell since I can't even find which page he's referring to in the MM to begin with, the ability to ignore prerequisites does not allow a character to ignore rules about feat "types". Certain Feat-types impose special rules which are not prerequisites, simpley rules to govern the type of feat it is. Example: Even if prerequisites are ignored a character could not pick a Feat(Monstrous) because that Feat-type requires that the character be a non-humanoid or monstrous character. Likewise you cannot pick a "Feat Bite of Death(Warforged)" to gain a bite attack. You may be able to ignore the prerequisites of being a Warforge, but you cannot ignore the "Warforge Feat-type" which rules "You must be a Warforge to take this feat". Redundant, perhaps but correct none the less. This halfing can ignore the insane prerequisites for Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, but cannot ignore the rules for Feat-type (Epic) which states you must be lv. 21 or higher to take this feat. Feat-types are not decorations for feats. Each one imposes their own set of rules on the feat. - DM JM  14:38, May 19, 2010


 * Page 7 of the Monster Manual (3.5e), in case you were wondering.--Tavis McCricket 17:29, May 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * More discussion on bonus feats. And at worst, a general ban on epic feats before level 21 (which I can't actually find) means that you just take Greater TWF instead, but that covers all of your iterative attacks anyway and doesn't actually change anything for this build. - TarkisFlux 18:24, May 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Also more discussion here. --Ghostwheel 22:05, May 19, 2010 (UTC)

I don't understand how this is even discussed to begin with. Monsters Manual clearly states that this rule you are referring to, ONLY works for creatures, and not characters.

"Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can till use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites." - Monsters Manual, page 7, section "Feats".

This rule does certainly NOT affect playable characters, I'm afraid. I just looked the rule up hoping you were right, so I could make a rouge only spending one feat on TWF (and that being perfect TWF), going for pierce magical concealment with my Blinking ring, only to be disappointed by my discovery. -- Jacob Christensen, 24 October 2012.


 * Nothing you have said indicates why it should not apply to playable characters. Player characters are creatures. The rogue special ability allows them to select a bonus feat. Bonus feats are described in the monster manual, with the quote you placed above, and can be selected without meeting the prereq unless otherwise stated. It is not otherwise stated in the rogue ability.


 * There is more discussion on this at SRD talk:Rogue. - Tarkisflux Talk 15:46, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * But page 7 clearly changes wording between "characters" and "monsters". It is clear to me that this section is meant for monsters, and monsters only. The rule is made for creating balanced monsters for the characters to encounter. What do you make of the "(B)", if this is a general rule for monsters and characters alike?


 * "Characters" are separate from "monsters", most of the time anyway, but "creature" can be applied to either group or you get extremely weird spell effects and other nonsense. Since bonus feats aren't defined anywhere else and they seem to behave differently than regular feats in several cases (war domain comes to mind), applying these rules to all creatures isn't unreasonable. As for the (B), it just means that you're supposed to mark your bonus feats with that, whether they come from fighter levels or cleric domains or rogue abilities or whatever.


 * That aside, even if you don't accept that based on "as intended arguments" (which is a reasonable position to hold IMO) this build still basically works. You get a couple fewer attacks as you have to work your way through the TWF chain instead of skipping it, but you can cover a lot of that by taking flaws to start if they are available. - Tarkisflux Talk 21:09, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Moving an IP's point/argument
They put this on the normal page, but I'm moving it here because that's where it should've gone in the first place. --Azya 20:42, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

"* Bonus feats, unless otherwise qualified, can ignore prerequisites (source: Monster Manual). The rogue's bonus feat from Special Ability is not otherwise qualified, and can ignore prerequisites. We use it to pick up Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting. If you don't want to be like that, you can use your free feats to pick it up whenever you feel like it. THE ABOVE IS A MISREPRESENTATION THE 3.5 MONSTER MANUAL SPECIFICALLY STATES ON PAGE 7 "SOMETIMES A CREATURE HAS ONE OR MORE BONUS FEATS MARKED WITH A SUPERSCRIPT B. CREATURES OFTEN DO NOT HAVE THE PREREQUISITES FOR A BONUS FEAT. IF THIS IS SO THE CREATURE CAN STILL USE THE FEAT. IF YOU WISH TO CUSTOMIZE THE CREATURE WITH NEW FEATS YOU MAY REASSIGN ITS OTHER FEATS, BUT NOT ITS BONUS FEATS. A CREATURE CANNOT HAVE A FEAT THAT IS NOT A BONUS FEAT UNLESS IT HAS THE FEATS PREREQUSITES."


 * Quick response: The feat gained by the Rogue special ability is a bonus feat per RAW: "Feat: A rogue may gain a bonus feat in place of a special ability" [emphasis mine]. That means that you just wrote in support of the interpretation you're railing against. If you feel that rules isn't being used as intended that's fine, I feel the same way, but this is not a misrepresentation of the actual text of the rules. - TarkisFlux 21:06, August 31, 2010 (UTC)

Blur/Blink
Part of the problem has been folks taking issue with Blink. I've seen one person try to argue that that the thrown weapons should be subject to the 20% chance melee attacks is. I just checked the Blur spell, however, and it doesn't have miss chance. It also provides substantially less benefits compared to Blink (well, it is a lower-level spell), but at least it provides basic concealment and doesn't bring up the miss chance for your own attacks. I figure the article should be altered to include this option. Does anyone have any thoughts? See anything I missed? --Genowhirl 05:55, 16 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately, you need total concealment (or a spell that says that enemies are denied dex to AC) to proc SA. So blur and concealment don't work--blur because it only gives 20% concealment, and displacement because it gives 50% miss chance, but no actual concealment. --Ghostwheel 11:52, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I actually explained it very recently here how Blink works and why it's argued that you wouldn't have the 20% chance to miss with thrown weapons when using Blink. --Ghostwheel 12:14, 16 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, dammit. I forgot the "Must be total concealment" deal. it's what I get for puttering around at night before going to bed. In that case, I have to apologize. But, hey, now I know. --Genowhirl 15:18, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

Bonus Feats
Irregardless of the wording, the build is broken. Perfect Two Weapon Fighting is an EPIC feat and can only be acquired at 21st level and beyond unless it's been reprinted somewhere before the end of 3.5 or there is Errata changing that. Also, I'd like to know how you're managing to get a character's Dex to 25 before 10th level because you have to have a BASE stat not a modified stat to qualify for a feat. Even starting off at 20 Dex you'd get +1 Dex at 4th, +1 Dex at 8th, and if you saved every bare penny you have you might be able to get a +2 Dex book.


 * While I agree that was certainly the intent, the actual wording defining bonus feats in the only place they appear (the Monster Manual) says that you can ignore prerequisites unless stated otherwise by the ability. The rogue ability does not state otherwise, so they can ignore the 21st level and 25 Dex requirements. More extensive words on this topic have been written here (it's come up a few times before, and I expect it'll come up again).


 * That said, losing perfect TWF doesn't hurt the build much. You can get the TWF line of feats at a fast enough rate to be double flinging flasks and all of the other things in any game that is using flaws, and you could always sacrifice weapon finesse or precise shot if you weren't able to take flaws. - Tarkisflux Talk 01:37, 2 September 2013 (UTC)