Talk:Powerful Wizard (3.5e Class)

Retraining spells as you increase in level such as how other spellcasters can would be useful. Describing whether the spells are arcane or divine is required. Being able to choose from lower lists would be useful. Saying that it is spellcasting for the sake of prestige classes would be useful. I'm going to make three feats for this type of class. You might want to rename it to Powered Wizard though. >_> --Havvy 13:04, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Also, looking upon the class (and asking Ghostwheel to analyze it), there is no way it is fighter level. For the purposes of bypassing plot, it is wizard level. --Havvy 13:14, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't see it doing well in the same game test though. He get most of his spell awfully late. --Leziad 17:35, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Let us assume for the moment that this Powerful Wizard is aiming to be Fighter-level in the sense of the SGT, as there is no way to grab most of the SRD spells and not have any control over the plot. And, of course, Fighters can still use Wands and Scrolls with enough tries and possibly skill-boosting items. --Foxwarrior 20:52, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * It alway was a problem with the SGT, I personally (you may not want to associate with my point of view, which is normal) like to test classes based on it own merit. Magic item abuse alway was a problem, almost everyone can (a single level with Human Paragon and UMD is now a class skill). Heck look at Uber-charger, optimization can bring (almost all) class to wizard (maybe not to the uber-wizard level though). --Leziad 20:59, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

SGT
So, here's a level 15 SGT, since level 15 is a point by which Fighter-level characters should lose more than 50% of the time. Dwarf, using Elite Array: STR 8 DEX 14 CON 13+2 INT 15+3 WIS 12 CHA 10-2. Equipping Headband of Intellect +6, Amulet of Health +6, Gloves of Dexterity +6, Cloak of Resistance +5, Ring of Protection +5, and a Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (+1 Insight bonus to AC). With Shield and Mage Armor cast, the Dwarf's defensive statistics would be as follows: HP 15d4+75 (114), AC 29, Touch 21, Flat-Footed 24, Fortitude 15, Reflex 15, Will 14, Initiative +5.

Skills: Concentration +23, Spot +10, Listen +10, Spellcraft +25

The Dwarf's spell choices: All spells have Save DCs of 24

At-Will: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Mage Armor, Locate Object, Water Breathing, Dimensional Anchor, Break Enchantment.

Encounter: Shield, See Invisibility, Fireball, Dimension Door, Quickened Fireball

Daily: Protection from Evil, Invisibility, Hold Person, Fly, Cloudkill

Okay, now for the SGT. Let us assume four encounters per day, using only the SRD challenges, because I don't want to bother looking for the other ones. The Dwarf will be wandering around with Mage Armor, Shield, and See Invisibility constantly active.


 * Marut: The Marut's Spell Resistance will probably be a real pain, and since it's a Construct, it'll also be immune to the Cloudkill. Since the Dwarf's saves are nice, the Marut will usually end up punching the Dwarf to death. 5%.


 * Drow Priestess with an army of Ghouls: The Ghouls are not much of a problem, as the Powerful Wizard's pair of Fireballs will kill them easily. The Powerful Wizard can try to use Cloudkill and Hold Person to kill the Priestess. If that fails, which it probably will, the Priestess will kill the Powerful Wizard easily. 20%.


 * Warparty of Cloud Giants: The Dwarf's AC protects him from the Cloud Giants' rocks. If the Powerful Wizard can drag this battle on long enough by Dimension Dooring into fresh hiding spots and popping off fireballs, he can eliminate the Cloud Giants in a couple of hours. If the Cloud Giants surround and catch him, he will get beaten to death. 60%.


 * Mature Adult White Dragon: The Dwarf might be able to Fireball and hide with Invisibility, but otherwise, the Dragon can kite or grapple the Dwarf to death. 40%.


 * Cornugon: The Cornugon teleports up to the Dwarf and beats him to death, unless he can use Invisibility to run away from this encounter as fast as he possibly can. 0%.


 * Gelugon and Iron Golem: The Dwarf might get a bit of Cloudkill in on the Gelugon, but most of the battle would probably consist of the two sides hitting on each other unless the Gelugon manages to summon a squad of Bone Devils to poison the Dwarf to death. Although the Iron Golem is immune to the Dwarf normally, if the Dwarf manages to fight off the Devil(s), the Dwarf can run away from the Iron Golem forever, possibly finding some sort of cheap weapon to kill the Iron Golem with eventually. 20%.


 * Rube Goldberg contraption of weirds and symbols of pain: Detect Magic might let the Powerful Wizard notice the contraption. If so, the Powerful Wizard can go back to town, press-gang a commoner, bring them back, and use them to set off the traps. If not, the Dwarf dies horribly. 80%.


 * Glabrezu: The Glabrezu hunts down the Dwarf, Power Word Stuns him, and kills him to death. 10%.


 * Succubi: The Succubus Energy Drain save DC is low enough that he'll probably save, realize what's going on, and burn them all with fire. 80%.


 * Dire Bears: Just like the Cloud Giants. 60%.


 * Medusas and Hellcats: Fireballs remove the riders from the Hellcats. Then the Dwarf flies around and tries desperately to kill them. 70%.


 * Dire Badgers: Just like the Dire Bears. 60%.

So, the average is 43%. Perhaps I should hit it with a nerf bat a little bit. --Foxwarrior 22:57, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * A note on Ice Devil vs Cloudkill, devils are immune to poison (which include cloud kill). The Gelugon will quickly kill the dwarf, with at will greater teleport and some other nastiness. In fact all battle against devils would be clear losses. --Leziad 23:11, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * As a matter of fact, the Gelugon will utterly destroy him, especially with an iron golem. He can use Unholy Aura and Wall of Ice at will. It say it a 100% loss, no win possible here. --Leziad 23:14, 27 March 2011 (UTC)


 * So reduce the average to 40%. Probably still a little bit too high. --Foxwarrior 00:23, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * To be fair the guy got a LOT more absolute loss than absolute win, most of his win are pretty close. Still 40% would mean high-end fighter to me. --Leziad 02:22, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * At level 11 you have access to fly -- how are the dire bears, dire badgers, even the cloud giants, perhaps, not 100%? On the other hand, I suppose this has next to no offense -- there are practically no save or X spells and your encounter spells which offer damage are also minimal in number -- you have fireball and quickened fireball in your encounter spells along with hold person and cloudkill in your dailies -- both of the latter two have sets of enemies they won't do anything on, and you can use the entirety of your offensive arsenal in a single round and then pluck away with a crossbow with poor BAB for five minutes. The only reliable offense you have (though terrain dependent) is trapping people in stoneshaped prisons while you wait for your encounters to recharge (had you selected stoneshape). It's just such a bizarre combination of awesomeness and uselessness, I don't know quite what to think. I can understand offensive spells being available as encounter options, but... I dunno, this just feels weird. -- Jota 22:09, 28 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Fly is a daily, it like one minute per level. Waiting for the encounter to recharge is not an option. Beside the class is not especially good at beating thing, oh it can run away just fine though. Very fighter-levelish. --Leziad 02:12, 29 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Stone Shape is no longer reliable. The objective of this class is to be as awesome as a Wizard while simultaneously being as useless as a Fighter, so I'll take your assessment as a compliment, Jota. --Foxwarrior 02:35, 29 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Well I would call it a success then. --Leziad 02:39, 29 March 2011 (UTC)