Talk:Return Strike (3.5e Feat)

I cannot tell what this is supposed to do. Can you give an example? --Havvy 17:03, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Mechanically, would it not be sounder to say that when you get a cleave attack, it is also a Whirlwind Attack? It would fit more situations, possibly bump this up to rogue level, and be easier to understand. --Havvy 18:14, 16 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't see how this is anything like WA. Could you explain in more detail? --Change=Chaos. Period. SC 04:34, 17 November 2010 (UTC)


 * With whirlwind attack, you hit all adjacent foes in one attack. With this, if you fail to kill on your cleave attack, you hit all other adjacent foes.  --Havvy 18:43, 17 November 2010 (UTC)


 * No, you continue your cleave attempts. Great Cleave done in the right circumstances can and does work almost exactly like WA, and this feat allows you two assault on your first target. It is a subtle difference, but mechanically important. --Change=Chaos. Period. SC 18:55, 17 November 2010 (UTC)


 * It seems pretty much equivalent to "Make a whirlwind attack. If you drop every creature except one, you may make an additional attack against that creature.". This feat seems a lot less like cleaving and a lot more like whirlwind attacking. In fact, this feat just seems like a way to skip the whirlwind attack tree (which is fine -- that feat tree is terrible). Why not copy the wording from whirlwind attack and then remove the line that says you can't make extra attacks and instead say "when you use this ability, choose a creature you threaten. Any extra attacks must target this creature". Then you'll have a nice mook remover ability that also allows you to beat on the boss a bit. --Aarnott 19:42, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Flowchart to Highlight the Many Issues Here
I threw this together to try to demonstrate the confusion. This is, as written, what the feat does. The only vagueness is described in that largest gray box. Otherwise, the wording is pretty clear. The reason that people are so confused is because what it does makes no freaking sense.

Also, note that, if that dashed connector is indeed valid, that means that the cycle repeats indefinitely until at least one target is downed. Which makes this even more powerful than a save-or-die, because you can just smack a rat to enter the cycle and then turn on a group of targets, guaranteeing that one target in that group will die and the rest will take damage. Which places this firmly in the wizard level. (Unless you are incapable of dealing damage to the targets that you choose, such as if you deal a max of 6 damage and they have DR 10. In that case, the round will never end, and you will be stuck in the loop perpetually.) --DanielDraco 16:39, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The whole cycle is wrong. Step One- declare use of Great Cleave. Step Two- select a number of targets equal to your Strength mod. If these targets do not drop, the Cleave continues. Step Three- Check to see if other targets drop. If yes, attack selected targets again. Simple, but prehaps confused by wording. How would you write this up?--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 02:34, 3 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Ummm, what? For Cleave and Great Cleave to even work, it is contingent on the success of your initial attack. You don't ever declare that you're using it before your initial attack. And DD's point about it being a bag of rats is pretty valid as far as I'm concerned. - TG Cid 04:11, 3 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Let us look at "select a number of targets equal to your Strength mod. If these targets do not drop" for a moment. Unless you're talking about Skulking Ghost or something, selecting a target isn't going to make them drop. And since we're talking about D&D here, we're not talking about Skulking Ghost, are we. Were you trying to make some sort of cleaving multiattack setup, where you attack several creatures at once, and then get to repeat the process if any of the creatures were felled? --Foxwarrior 04:14, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep, pretty much. See, Great Cleave works by letting you attack people up until you hit something that doesn't drop from that one attack. This expands that to letting you choose a number of targets that "don't count" for purposes of stopping Great Cleave should they not drop. Finally, it gives the additional benefit of letting you attack those you selected a second time if you wipe out everything around you except them.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 05:45, 3 May 2012 (UTC)


 * So, functionally (when it's rewritten to function), it just lets you attack (STR mod) creatures one extra time after you drop your first opponent for the round? Do you get to attack that set of creatures a second extra time if you found another rat to kill? Or do you have to first stab every insect and bacterium within reach before the second extra set of attacks?
 * Or is the second extra set of attacks actually just a normal Great Cleave?
 * In either of the first two cases (for extra sets of attacks), your objective is nonsensical. In the last case, the problem is that you're trying to associate it with Great Cleave when they really don't interact with each other. --Foxwarrior 05:58, 3 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I think I am actually starting to feel the effects of intellectual osmosis now. I'm cutting out of this conversation now before it causes damage. I really do not care anymore at this point if you still have issues understanding this, if an admin agrees that this feat is confusing I will not miss its deletion, and I will just let this feat stay out of this site and on the other sites. TTYL--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 20:01, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I think I am actually starting to feel the effects of intellectual osmosis now. I'm cutting out of this conversation now before it causes damage. I really do not care anymore at this point if you still have issues understanding this, if an admin agrees that this feat is confusing I will not miss its deletion, and I will just let this feat stay out of this site and on the other sites. TTYL--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 20:01, 3 May 2012 (UTC)


 * When all the neighbors are idiots, it usually isn't the neighbors... --Aarnott 20:11, 3 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Don't call other people idiots just because they can't understand your odd wording.
 * Alright, so, a guy with Str 18 and this feat starts his round by attacking an opponent. That opponent dies. He selects four other opponents. Great Cleave activates. He attacks the first of those four. It doesn't die. This feat allows him to take another cleave attack anyway -- he moves on to the second. It also doesn't die. Still, he goes on. The third doesn't die either, nor does the fourth. After both, he is still allowed to make another attack -- but he's now out of automatic Cleaves. He now goes on to continue his Great Cleave, following the normal rules of it for any further targets.
 * Is that what you meant for it to do? Because firstly, the feat doesn't say that very clearly at all, and secondly, it's unbalanced as all get out because of the the aforementioned bag o' rats problem. --DanielDraco 01:59, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Possible Revision Idea
Something like: When cleaving, your character may continue cleaving even if he does not drop a target, so long as each opponent attacked in this manner is dealt damage. Usable once around? Also takes up your swift/immediate action? Some other limitation like "you can cleave through up to X number of targets that don't drop while you're doing a cleave attack. Still bag o' rats problem (kill rat to activate cleave, get hits on everyone within melee range).

Doesn't really work with the name "Return Strike" though, not that the original really did anyways. Thoughts on this? --Ganteka Future 02:44, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
 * That's pretty much how it was intended, but it seems people get really confused on the second attack on non-dropping targets part. Also, if it is usable once per round anyway, does it need to take up a swift action?--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 05:11, 7 May 2012 (UTC)


 * It's different because you didn't say once per round OR a swift action. So as written, it can infinitely chain as long as you kill something. - TG Cid 05:35, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Here's the new write up. Decided that it works better as a standard action, and also made the second attacks a second cleave attempt. Thoughts?--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 04:09, 8 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Made it understandable and good. If I understood it correctly, now it's basically a double whirlwind attack, which is pretty good. --Ghostwheel 04:19, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * No. Done right, it is a double cleave set. Allow me to make this clear.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 05:10, 10 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The terms "as a standard action" and "cleave attempts don't function together, hence the Winter Cleaning template and its reasoning. Cleave attacks come as free attacks when you've already killed somebody; making this a standard action activation is silly. - TG Cid 15:27, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
 * ... Yes, cleave works by giving a free attack after dropping (not just killing, all that is required is getting the target unconsious) a target. Great cleave expands that by giving unlimited extra attacks so long as everything you hit drops. What this feat is intended to do is allow you to select a number of targets while cleaving who, if they don't drop on the first attack, do not interupt the cleave and might be attacked again as the great cleave come full circle. Is there a satisfactory way to write this up?--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 02:52, 11 May 2012 (UTC)