User talk:Unsanemaker/Brawling Rogue (3.5e Class)

Wow, what a mess
I can't even get the class to show up, the formatting is that jacked up. I only knew there was a class here at all by looking at it in edit view. With that said... my god is it a mess. What... what formatting is this? Is this ported from the old D&D wiki? If so, we'll need to do some surgery on this before we can even get it to show up. Get back to me on this. -- Eiji-kun 11:06, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

CommOpp - sandbox this please
Title says it all. - MisterSinister 01:13, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Promises
As promised I'll look at this when I get a chance for some DEEEEEP CLEEEEEANING. DEEEEEEEEP CLEEEEEEAAAAAANNINNNNNGGG. WHOOOOOOOO. -- Eiji-kun 18:37, 10 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you, I will also work on why the BRBs and saving throws are all retarded for the lack of a better term Unsanemaker


 * BRBs aren't the problem, though I'd hope you could BRB pretty soon to fix it.--Quey 23:54, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

AN EXPLOSION OF TEXT (take 20d6 damage)
Alright, it's time for an Eiji-style rant. If you haven't experienced one of these, please put on your seatbelts and keep arms and legs firmly inside your 5 foot space. We're going to dive right into this muckity muck.

To begin, I must understand the nature of the class, the gist of it and feel. "Brawling Rogue" makes me think of some weird combo of rogue, sneak attack fighter, and thug (the latter two being fighter alternate class features, or ACFs). A quick look shows that it has (I think) intended medium BAB, good reflex, and d6, just as the standard rogue. It has less skill points, indicating smarts and skill are not is main focii. The fluff text doesn't tell me much, basically saying "they're good with weapons". Basic fighter-class boilerplate. First, let's address the basic of the basic, the things all classes share, BAB, HD, saves, and skills.

Well, they're borked, and I'm not sure why. All classes fit into pre-made setups.... Poor BAB (1/2 your level), Moderate BAB (3/4 your level), and High BAB (1:1 your level). Likewise saves come in Poor (1/3 your level) and Good (1/2+2 your level). These things are standardized for a reason, first and formost in that they often act as pre-reqs or benchmarks for everything else in the game. For that reason, it's best not to vary from that. From the looks of it you mean to copy the rogue directly, so I would pull the progression for BAB and saves right from SRD:Rogue. BAB 0 at first level, 15 at 20th, and so forth.

The d6 is fine, though if this is a more fighting focused rogue you may want to consider d8. d8 is "average" in terms of HD, and the rogue is well known for being a brittle glass cannon who can't take a hit, by and large due to his d6 HD.

Skills are alright, save terrible formating issues. I'd go more into detail, but I need a stronger grasp on the fluff and flavor of the class before commenting on what skills work.

So we move onto the class features. We'll go in order.

Sneak Attack: Sources of extra damage are good for two-weapon fighting builds, but your scaling is off. It goes 1, 4... 6? It looked like you were going every three, but now it's every two. Wait, now it's back to every three! Pick a progression and stick with it. Determine how important sneak attack is to the flavor of your class. From what I can tell, the brawling rogue is a more straight-up fighter who should differ himself from your vanilla rogue, so its ok to have slower (every 3) sneak attack progression, and fill in the loss of power with something new and unique to the class.

Wild Empathy: Why does he get wild empathy? Nothing in the flavor text seems to indicate this rogue has anything to do with nature or pets.

Find Trap: By which I think you mean Trapfinding, unless you intent this to be some different class feature. This is alright, but is it appropriate? A brawling rogue seems to indicate its less about stealth and skills and more about shanking someone in the back and punching people in the face. And speaking of which...

Unarmed: This should be Unarmed Strike, as the monk. It scales slower (though I see no reason for the nerf), but this is appropriate. This actually makes me think... its a rogue. It brawls. I'm good with that. IMHO, just say "you gain unarmed strike as a monk of your level" so you don't need to chart out the progression, and it stacks with other unarmed-strike granting classes. ...hmm, this is odd. Why does his unarmed strike have a 19-20/x2 crit? I'm not complaining, but its unusual, so I think you need to justify it.

''We now stop for a moment to discuss: Is this what the brawling rogue is? A rogue with unarmed strike? That's fine, if a little weak for a class. At 1st level, you should be gaining your iconic power (if possible). Take a few classes.... "What's a paladin?" Why, SMITE EVIL! "What's a rogue?" It's SNEAK ATTACK! "What's a Fighter?" CRAP, I mean, BONUS FEATS! "What's a barbarian?" RAAAAAGE! All at 1st level. Your 1st level should define your class with some iconic power, even if the power is not at its full effectiveness. Does this class do it? Soooorta. Unarmed Strike + Sneak Attack? Ok. But if you really want this to feel like a class of its own and not an alt class feature, you should think of something iconic for this. Let's move on.''

Dodge: Ah dodge, like the feat right?.... oh, oh my, no it isn't. You seem to have given them the effect of an epic feat, SRD:Epic Dodge, though its actually not quite as good. It's attack roll vs Reflex save, and the attack rolls will always outpace the Reflex save. With that in mind, this has a bit of promise, but this isn't one a round, it applies for every hit. You're gonna slow down the game with all those extra rolls. Limiting it to once per round is a valid option. I'd want to place it higher than 2nd, perhaps 3rd or 4th, just to discourage dippers trying to buff their reflex into the heavens. We also need to reword it, something like "once per round you can make a Reflex check and use the result in place of your AC for one attack" or something. Oh, and change the name so its not confused with SRD:Dodge.

Trap Sense: Again, I question the need for trap-focused abilities on a brawl-focused rogue-type.

Favored Enemy: Ignoring the fact the table says 2nd level and the text says 1st, I need justification on why it has favored enemy. I also personally discourage too much mixing and matching of class abilities from other classes, namely iconic beings. Sneaking one or even two is fine, but this is a third, so now we're rogue+monk+ranger. It dilutes the value of other classes, and unless the point of the class is to be the I-can-be-anyone 5th wheel I don't see a need for it.

Track: Track the feat? Maybe, but Track is not Int based soo.... it's unclear. In any case, justify this, why does a brawling rogue track? It doesn't seem to match.

''So, 2nd level was a mess, but there was something interesting in dodge, if a bit broken. To third level!''

Dancing Pickpocket: What a name. No need to specify something as non-combat. The mechanics seem to say its just sleight of hand, but you can steal multiple items in one check. It doesn't give any DCs for how to do this. But at level 10, things get weird. They had strength... to what? And nothing stops them from picking up greatswords sleight of hand with the skill as if, it's just hard. I really recommend reviewing how SRD:Sleight of Hand works before moving on with this. Also... not very brawl-focused... unless you could steal while IN a brawl. There's an idea, acts like MUG from FF7, where you steal an item while dealing damage.

Quick Change: I, what? What? So when no one is looking you can change clothes... but how quickly? It doesn't say? Instant disguises are useful. Not very BRAWLING rogue though. But why would changing clothes allow you to hide in plain sight? In fact, since you need to be out of sight to change clothes, it doesn't really work at all, does it.

Evade: This is Evasion, and so it should say "Evasion". "Evade" implies this is a new unique ability.

Special Ability:What do you mean "choose any of the following untamed"? Anyway, this should be a list, or a table. It's a mess and the powers are ill defined and not balanced against each other. "Can keep in a fight after 0 hp". To what limit? Under what penalties, if any? Is this deathless frenzy? And why would that be appropriate at level 3? "Cure." +3 to no sickness, what? Oh, it's a class ability, a bonus on saves vs poison and disease. That's pretty bad. "Sure". Again, bad skill bonus this time. Just compare this to the Might-Be-Deathless-Frenzy, they don't compare.This continues with pretty much all of them. Fixing this is a section all its own. Also, the scaling is odd again. 3, 6, 9, 12.... 16? Not 15? 19 and then 20? Should this not be every three?

''Nope, level 3 was noooo good. A lot of these seem to be ideas which were half-formed, then placed but with no idea of actually how to DO them, or if things already did them. Time for level 4.''

Unarm Enemy: We usually call this SRD:Disarm, and there's rules for it. In fact, everyone can do it. This is a non-class feature, it literally gives you nothing.

''Well level 4 was disappointing. What about 5?''

Build Basic Trap: Now, anyone can build a trap with ranks in Craft (trap), but I think the indication was to build one quickly, which is good. But it doesn't actually say that, and limits you to a short list of unspecified mechanics for unspecified traps. But again.... BRAWLING rogue, why are you knee deep in traps and tracking?

Uncanny Dodge: Ah, so normal uncanny dodge like a rogue or barbarian, right? Well, no. This is another thing where you have the same name but new mechanics. Since your class's "Dodge" already covers this, this is redundant. You could do this anyway.

''I'm beginning to think you're not familiar with the other classes. Level 6!''

Analyze: BRAWLING rogues don't seem to fit the detective role much. With that said, detecting things about body usually falls under the realm of the SRD:Heal Skill. You'll find most of what you want to do there.

''I've stressed it before and I'll stress it again, I really think you need to find the theme of your class. To help, try defining your class in as few words as possible, one sentence. What, here's rogue, barbarian, cleric, and sorcerer. "Sneaky and skillful skirmisher which backstabs." "Strong brute, all brawn and no brains." "Holy man with healing and supportive magic." "Inherently magical spellcaster." From these descriptions, I could get an idea of what they do even without knowing what these classes do.This works with obscure classes you've may not have heard of before. You need this, not only to keep on track with your class but for others and ease of their use. When you say "I'm a brawling rogue" you want them to say "Oh yeah, the guy who X..." and not "Yeah, the guy with the X, and the Y... and the weird version of Z, and sometimes it does..." You got no clear focus kiddo. Well, level 7.''

Fast Shot: I'm not sure what I am reading. EVERYONE can use ranged and thrown weapons. Did you mean SRD:Shot on the Run? But why the penalty? In fact, why not just give them Shot on the Run? But, more importantly, what does it have to do with the BRAWLING rogue, this seems not very brawl-ish. This is skirmisher-ish.

Stride: The ability not to trigger a trap by moving over it is good, but needs to be clarified, such as "you don't trigger pressure plates". And if its any trap, you have to consider some traps are like "you open the door and KNIFE IN THE EYE!" and have nothing to do with moving over something. But again... Brawling Rogue, why?

''Stride has some potential, but needs heavy heavy work. Level 8.''

Build Weapon:Anyone can craft weapons, it's literally the SRD:Craft (Skill). This is a non-feature.

No Sickness: Poison and disease saves are already d20 + your Fortitude save. This class feature literally does nothing.

''This level have you nothing, literally nothing. Both features are things inherent to the system. Level 9.''

Study Enemy: The idea of making a check and getting a bonus to attack is a good one, and the basis of the Knowledge Devotion feat. But this is messy... what action does it take? What is a "fast movement" or a "fastest movement"? Why is getting a bonus equally as hard on a goblin as it is a Paragon Gibbering Orb?

''Study enemy needs work badly. I'd say almost just give them Knowledge Devotion. Level 10.''

Quick Hide: Quick Hide has no mechanics. This is pretty much SRD:Feint but using things to hide behind. But what is the DC? How much harder is it to hide if there's nothing to hide behind? How are you hiding at all if nothing to hide behind is in range. Does it take any actions? We need mechanics!

''I'mma become your drill sergeant and drill some basic mechanics into your head. Join Eiji's Boot Camp of Doom! Level 11.''

Disappear: This is amusingly, and sadly, abusable. Ok, 20% health to flee. But the mechanics don't make sense. How do you escape? On foot? Do you provoke attacks of opportunity? Do you teleport? Plane shift? What is the DC you're rolling against? Can it be stopped or interrupted? What action does it take? So many questions!

Dancing Death: Ok, again with the "non-combat" nonsense, but its a noncombat ability... about combat. You bump into them as a... what action? Touch attack? And then you... kill them? Poison them? Is this death attack? A save vs death? Just damage? Far as I can tell you mean something like "make a touch attack and for the next round they are flatfooted" so you can sneak attack them as normal.

''Dancing Death makes me cry. Level 12.''

Flying Fists: Flying fists, this one... actually works. Oh, I know of ways to abuse this, but this one actually works. It just needs rewording badly, but look: it has mechanics (you get two extra attacks when you crit) and it is actually something that makes sense fluffwise (it's a flurry of blows-like attack, AND it has to deal with BRAWLING!) Yay?

''Flying Fists, I finally found something salvageable. Level 13.''

Speed Shot: Same as Fast Shot, this isn't needed.

Battle Insight: Why do you need to specify battle only? This... kind of makes sense, but isn't super useful. My problems are terribad wording on what I think the mechanics are (it's not clear) and what does this have to do with brawling rogues?

''All these not-very-brawly abilities makes me wonder about the name. Level 14.''

Remove Armor: Ok, this has promise. Debuff someone by removing their fancy armor. You might want fluff how they do it, but I see it possible... cut straps and whatnot. But 1d20 + Str + Reflex? What? Against an opposed Reflex check? That doesn't even make sense, the things determining this check are utterly random.

''Remove Armor had such promise... Level 15.''

Quick Draw: Like the feat SRD:Quick Draw? No, not really. It's like Quick Draw, but worse, and Quick Draw is level 1 appropriate. This is 15th. Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaally?

''Quick Draw, so much nope! Level 16.''

Build Advanced Trap: As before, trap creation is done by the Craft skill. See Build Trap for my comments on that.

''Nothing to see here, moving on. Level 17.''

Still Sight: This... this... listen, I've read this about 6 times and I still don't exactly know what you're trying to say here, it's all %s and shizzle.

''And after that, there's no new class features, just previous class features. In fact, there's no capstone! That's a bad thing. The goal of a class is that you WANT them to go from Class 1 to Class 20. You do this by avoiding making it too dippable (don't stick all the good stuff in the first few levels... SRD:Paladin is guilty of this) and put something cool at 20th so you can want to reach 20. WotC is kind of bad at these, but a good example of a capstone is the Warblade from Tome of Battle, they can use two stances at once, which if you know stances, is very valuable to have. So you WANT to take Warblade up to 20 so you can enjoy that prize. And of course its important the rest of the class is good too so you aren't just slogging through a bad class for a diamond at the end of the rough.''

Sir, I shall take you to task. Before we can fix this class we need to fix your knowledge base. I'm not sure you actually understand the rules associated with D&D. Do not feel ashamed, but be aware of it and fix it. I can try and run you through on both game mechanics and proper class creation, but we will literally need to start from the ground up. Are you a man enough dude to join Judgemental Eiji's Boot Camp of Dice? Because, seriously, as harsh and direct as I am I suspect it'll be much nicer than the slings of others.

My thought is to scrap this for the moment, just let it sit here as an example as what to avoid. To re-make it, we need to get a firm understanding of what your goal is. Your first mission: Define your class in a single sentence. We'll start from there. -- Eiji-kun 01:06, 11 September 2012 (UTC)


 * While you're going through Judgemental Eiji's Boot Camp of Dice, I'm going to throw out one observation from Nitpicky DD's Peanut Gallery of...Dice. It seems like there's one thing that you, Unsanemaker, really need to understand about writing rules for D&D: it demands absolute precision. This is not WFRP, or DRYH, or Fiasco. This game is not about leaving the mechanics wide open and asking for judgment calls or intuitive interpretations. For every single rule, you have to say exactly what you mean with no room for questions. Writing D&D homebrew is like writing a legal document, or a computer program. Every clause that allows more than one interpretation, no matter how far-fetched, is a clause that was written wrong. Period. This is the nature of the game. This approach has its merits and its failings, but it is the approach demanded by the system. Right now, your writing does not fit this. But you can learn to write that way, and it really isn't as tedious/hard as it might sound.


 * For the purposes of learning that skill, among others, I'd urge you to take Eiji up on his offer to guide you through the process. There is a definite art to writing homebrew, and, like any sort of writing, the only way to learn to do it well is to exchange ideas with other writers. I myself have written worse classes than this, but by discussing elements of design with community members here and learning more and more about what goes into a good D&D class, I have now managed to write a Community Favorite. You can too. So don't be disheartened by all the criticism. We're helping, really. It will make you a better homebrewer. --DanielDraco 02:47, 11 September 2012 (UTC)