Talk:Restorer (3.5e Class)

Balance
What with all the wizard-level spells available as invocations (Sleep, Web, Hold Person, Deep Slumber, Hold Monster, Mass of both Hold Person and Hold Monster, Symbol of Sleep, Wall of Force, Forcecage, etc) I'd probably peg this at wizard-level. --Ghostwheel 02:21, May 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Just having some good spells isn't enough. It's incredibly inflexible and reliant on Will saves and [Mind-Affecting].

A Level 10 Same Game Test

 * <50%: A hallway filled with magical runes. Assuming a symbol of death is first, to get through this with any likelihood, she must save on the first rune and succeed on a rather cheesy cross-class knowledge dungeoneering check to expect more runes, and have dimension door. < 50%
 * 100%: A Fire Giant. 15hd, can't be deep slumbered, can throw rocks further than restoring ray. Solution: levitate or fly or dimension door+expeditious retreat and restoring ray. If the giant stays near his fire source, he can average 24*(30-AC)/20 damage per round. The restorer can heal 17.5 damage per round, so, with fly, she can survive without resorting to running away as long as her AC is at least 15. Boring and drawn out.
 * 100%: A Young Blue Dragon. 12hd, can't be deep slumbered. By the numbers, this looks like a tough fight because of the dragon's 150ft fly speed, but the dragon's poor maneuverability when flying vs the agility of dimension door assures the restorer's victory in the air. If grappled, the restorer loses instead.
 * 0%: A Bebilith. 12hd, can't be deep slumbered. Ambushed by the bebilith, the restorer is grappled and killed.
 * 15-100%: A Vrock. Win conditions: win initiative, deep slumber the vrock on the first round (vrock has +10 will) (<50%). This is probably a close and exciting fight. The vrock simply uses telekinesis to pin the restorer, but then can't damage her. Need to actually play this one out.
 * <25%: A tag team of Mind Flayers. Must make two DC 17 will saves just to get past first round, ~25% chance. Must stay > 60ft away, which is more than the range of deep slumber or restoring ray. Very unlikely.
 * <50%: An Evil Necromancer. Hold person, deep slumber, still going to lose to the wizard's superior versatility.
 * 100%: 6 Trolls. Dimension door or fly and deep slumber make this easy.
 * 100%: 12 Shadows. Finally something easy, at least sort of. Despite her bad spot and their hide bonuses, she's sure to spot twelve of them. She just needs any movement skill and restoring ray.

Optimized build for passing the level 10 same game test.
Needed invocations: Lesser: restoring ray, dimension door, deep slumber Least: touch of sleep, levitate

Wins 46-69% of the fights. Cedges 19:07, May 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * With its primary focus on support rather than damage, I think something similar to the SGT for the marshal (end of the first area) might be more appropriate in this case. --Ghostwheel 20:15, May 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Dimension Door does not work that way. The Shadows are also likely to win some of the time - they don't ever have to leave the ground. And of course, Deep Slumber is not a definitive victory by any means. The Restorer cannot actually kill those trolls, after all.


 * What is a "level 10 same game" balance test? I think I've seen it done for the World Dominator, too. --Luigifan18 (talk) 01:04, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * SGT. --Foxwarrior (talk) 01:08, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Hmmm... interesting. I should try putting the Viewtiful Warrior through that... --Luigifan18 (talk) 01:40, 13 December 2012 (UTC)

Balance
In terms of bringing this down from the wizard level which it clearly is currently (despite game tests), I would suggest something like, removing invocations entirely and replacing them with 1 or 2 of each level, chosen for them, and then giving it the ability to, at certain levels, trade out d6s for effects, a la ambush feats from CSc. For example, Lesser Restoration is normally available to clerics at 3 so at level 4 or 5 grant the ability to trade out 2d6 for Lesser Restoration as a "blast essence" if you will. While I understand the purpose of the tests, this is not a class that's meant to be used by itself, and the power it has in a party is fairly preposterous. Hartlequin 23:02, 22 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Ummm, why would you want to bring this down from wizard-level when that's stated as its balance point in the page? If it was listed as something else, I get it, but I don't think this class was necessarily made with a particular balance point in mind; it just happened to be Wizard-level. Also, the SGT was in fact predicated on its abilities as a stand-alone class, which are not in short supply. As Ghostwheel pointed out above, this class isn't lacking in offense with lots of mind-affecting things, and what you're suggesting sounds like a way to reduce it to healer-esque weaksauce. Which is not cool. - TG Cid 22:59, 23 March 2012 (UTC)