Talk:Marshal (3.5e Class)

SGT
A potentially balanced class that doesn't pass the SGT on its own? Blasphemy! heh --Ghostwheel 06:50, September 7, 2009 (UTC)


 * I did one SGT already today... soon as I can get caught up on work I'll see if this one is as blasphemous as you suggest ;-) - TarkisFlux 01:39, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll look forward to it :-)
 * Just with the lack of (many) class abilities that buff himself up (there are a few, but primarily his abilities target ally (other than self)) and the medium BAB and starting medium armor and medium HD, I don't see him standing on his own against many encounters that aren't pure social skill checks. --Ghostwheel 07:37, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah.... so... about that SGT...
 * You're right, this class doesn't pull it, because it doesn't do anything to itself. I think you could test it in a modified way using a stock barbarian (I'd use a stock fighter but don't want to get into feat arguments) against the SGT and seeing how much assistance the Marshall was able to give it, but I'm still thinking that one over.


 * I think that would be a better idea, simply because that way you can see what it can do in-combat. --Ghostwheel 21:18, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * I'll say this for it though, it's the most interesting and tactical take on a buffer I've seen. You can't just auto-buff with it, which is really nice, but it seems to be missing a couple of things. So while I ponder how to even SGT it, here's some other stuff that stood out.
 * Stand Your Ground:If you start with an 18 chr, you're going to be providing 3 temporary hit points for 1 round to one guy at the cost of a swift action and some battle order points that you can't do anything else with. Which is ok, because I don't have anything else to do with those points, but when I hit 2nd and I get to choose between using that point for 4 temp hp or 1 extra attack at +4 for my big weapon, power attacking thug friend, I'm going to give up my move and let him murder things. And I'm going to save all of my points for that because the temp hp are so small and temporary and the bonus from the guy dropping someone is so much bigger. I don't think it would be out of place, considering the duration, to just go with the x4 from the start. At level 1 that's all of 12hp, which is a mediocre hit with a greatsword, and not really the sort of thing I'd be worried about potentially negating with a swift action and limited combat resources. At level 2 when it's 16hp, I'd strongly weigh whether I wanted to save a guy with that point or drop a guy by using it on the thug, and I think that's about right.


 * Try this in an actual game--right now I'm playing a level 5 Marshal with 21 Cha, and it's actually quite a lifesaver. Yes, the ability does fall at around levels 3-4, but picks back up at level 5. At the moment, I can grant allies 14 temporary HP--enough to stop them from taking enough damage to keep them up much of the time. Were it at x4, instead I'd be giving them 28 HP each--a little too much, at this level. And the game's not balanced at all at level 1 anyway. I prefer to look at balance starting more at around level 5ish personally. That make a bit more sense? --Ghostwheel 21:18, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * I actually think it falls from levels 1-4, and isn't worth using in place of other actions in those levels at all... to the point that you might as well not even give it until level 5 IMO. 14 at 5 is fine, though I don't actually care about 28 given some of the focus firing that can happen and the limited duration that means if you don't get hit / targeted that round the action is completely wasted. Still, if you're not comfortable with just x4ing it all, moving it up to x2 for levels 1-4 would still make me at least consider using it in some situations. - TarkisFlux 22:44, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * You also need to think about multiclass characters though. At level 10, a character who has taken a single level dip of Marshal is going to be able to grant 10 temporary HP as a swift action for at least a few rounds each combat, basically the equivalent of the Stone Power feat with no penalty to attack. 20 HP at level 20 for a few rounds a combat seems like a decent return for a single level invested in a class. It may not seem like a lot at the first few levels, but characters at that level are going to be killed by a single crit from a lucky orc with a longbow, whether the Stand Your Ground is doubled or not. And as you noted, the problem is quickly fixed by level 5, a level many characters either start at or reach quickly. To tell the truth, at those levels I'd like to see marshals using more general attacks, rather than keeping strictly to class abilities, allowing VAD to be effective from the start. --Ghostwheel 12:57, September 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * Guided Attack: I like the idea, but I think it could benefit from moving up the progression, or just eliminating the charge at 11 and replacing it with a full-round action, which could be charging, full-attacking, or even spell-casting.


 * Eh, spellcasters are already powerful enough as it is without getting extra actions. The charging is great for the chargers out there who deal incredible damage--this is more like a Snake's Swiftness spell than anything else, and I don't really see a need (or that it'd change the balance that much) to move it up. How would this change the class's power overall? I don't see that big of a difference... --Ghostwheel 21:18, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * In a rogue level game where they aren't cheesing themselves out an extra spell isn't that much different from an extra full-action for anybody else. The only difference in power for the class overall is that it let's rogues TWF again in a round below 20 at the same time as it lets the ubercharger charge (and potentially allow someone else to flee like a ninny, cutting off an escapee, but that's less awesome). It's less a boost for the class, and more a balancing of the ability for the non-chargers out there. - TarkisFlux 22:44, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Step As One: Feels like not enough for as late as you get it. I keep comparing it to Mass Snake's Swiftness (2nd level druid, 3rd wiz that lets all allies in medium range take an immediate attack, which would probably be fine as a Strike As One ability at a lower level if you wanted to appropriate it). It's a nice ability, just not really great at level 14.


 * Like "Feather Yon Foe", it's mostly a flavorful ability meant to give the players another option without costing too much. It's there so that combat doesn't get boring, but not really a powerup. Guided Attack is more of the Snake's Swiftness ability. --Ghostwheel 21:18, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, the SS reference in the other ability is fairly obvious, I just wanted to suggest a mass version of it since the class seemed ready for it. And even if it is a flavorful ability, it could be a worthwhile flavorful ability at a lower level instead of strictly a flavor ability at this one. - TarkisFlux 22:44, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Otherwise, it's effects are all morale bonuses (so it competes with the bard and half of the cleric spells) for bonuses, but is missing any healing except for it's % and temporary effects as well as any stat buffs, and so can't actually replace the regular buffers out of combat. You could get around it by giving them a power such that they were treated as having the cure and buff spells on their class list (and could thus use wands for out of combat prep like everyone else does) if you wanted to, and it saves you from giving them spellcasting or other weirdness.


 * I usually get Healing Belts with all my characters anyway--multiple ones, if needed. That said, try playing it in a 5th-or-so level game with other rogue power level characters and see how it works there :-) --Ghostwheel 21:18, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Fair enough on the healing belts, which I also carry lots and lots of. When I figure out how to fairly SGT it I'll give it the 5/10/15. I don't think 5th level is a particularly hard SGT to pass on any balance level, and I wouldn't be surprised if this was a substantial boost at that point.


 * Isn't doubling the number of something supposed to add +2 to its CR? So you could send a 3rd level Marshal/Barbarian team through the 5th level SGT, an 8th level Marshal/Barbarian team through the 10th level SGT, and a 13th level Marshal/Barbarian team through the 15th level SGT?--Ideasmith 00:39, September 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * It's meant to... but CR just doesn't work well. Consider a level 5 wizard, and compare to a level 5 barbarian. Or two level 3 barbarians. Or even two level 4 barbarians. The wizard is still stronger, despite supposedly being the same CR. Furthermore, while the wizard's power increases exponentially, the barbarian's increases in a linear manner. Thus, the "two levels = double in power" is only really true for casters. --Ghostwheel 00:42, September 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * It's also true of monsters, and Tome/SGT classes are balanced against monsters, so if you use a class that you already know passes the SGT (Rogue, maybe, or the Tome Barbarian) as your companion, then you can expect it to double like you expect. --IGTN 00:46, September 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * That's not completely true; take for example melee monsters (bulette, animals, dinosaurs, etc). They perform at around the same pace as most meleers who are decently built. Furthermore, Tome classes advance more-or-less at the same rate as meleers (I'm looking at you, Fighter and Barbarian and Knight, for example), but simply are able to keep up with wizards due to class abilities--not because their spine (BAB, HD, saves) changed. In fact, if you tone down spells (yes, I know we hate many things about Pathfinder, but for example if this was Entangle) then the power of many spellcasters drops. If glitterdust, mirror image, polymorph, grease, color spray, sleep, and many others weren't as powerful as they are now, the balance of power wouldn't be so out of whack IMO compared to tier 3 classes, since then also the spell-like abilities that many monsters get would be equally lowered in power.
 * One variant I've come up with to tone down spellcasters is this one. I'm trying it out in my own game, and it's proving to be incredibly effective. Monsters get a chance to interrupt spellcasting, scatter from AoEs, etc whenever the beguiler begins to cast one of his more incredible spells. My next big project is actually a collection of rules and monster-designing tips which I hope will allow DMs to run balanced games at around the balance point that Tome of Battle + XPH classes present. (No, I don't mean the Soulknife as it's presented.) --Ghostwheel 00:56, September 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * So I was driving back to school, and I think I figured out how you could test this using the SGT. So it was suggested that it be done via stock barbarian/marshal combination, and Ideasmith suggested some CR alterations, but what about this: take a class that already completes the SGT and pair it with the marshal. Then, simply add another (identical?) marshal to the monster's side. It's a simple balancing of equations. So we have two mind flayers and a marshal against a rogue and a marshal, for example. It might get dicy when it's something like a shadow horde or whatever, as the marshal's powers seem more competent with higher numbers, but that was my revelation on the subject. Monsters are a bit different from PCs, but not that different. They still attack, they can still benefit from healing (most of them), they still benefit from getting into good positions, etc. Now for some encounters the opposing marshal's actions will be different (mind flayer as opposed to trolls), but it should still preserve the 50/50 quotient of the equation. -- Jota 00:50, September 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * It's an interesting idea Jota, but I'm not sure how that shows whether the class is balanced against challenges of it's same level. It's like you're testing the class you're pairing them with and just changing the conditions of the test slightly. I guess I'm wondering what you would expect to see different in the results that you could point at with any confidence if you expect the contributions of the thing you wanted to test to cancel with itself. - TarkisFlux 01:29, September 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, for a test to be a valid test of whether or not a statement is true, you have to be able to predict what the results will be if the statement is true and not true, and they have to be different. So you can predict a balanced Marshal might be able to beat an SGT two levels higher with an accompanying other character of their level, or you can predict that a balanced Marshal would be able to beat a doubled SGT (double all enemies.  One Fire Giant becomes two, Six trolls become twelve, and so on) when accompanied by another SGT-passing character.  Adding the same thing to both sides doesn't make any different predictions.  --IGTN 02:53, September 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * So let's take a look at the challenges one at a time, say, with a marshal paired with a swordsage:
 * Two hallways filled with magical runes
 * Easy enough, Stand Your Ground to soak up damage, regain Battle Order points as needed, move slowly. -Win
 * Two fire giants
 * At level 10, it isn't out of the question for a Marshal with starting 16 cha to have a cha of 22 (+2 level, +4 item), which gives us 39 HP per round to both himself and the swordsage, where the giants do 25.5 damage on average should they hit. We'll assume that the swordsage is able to take them down with the marshal's help around 50% of the time before getting killed. Should he get killed, the marshal automatically dies. -50%/50%
 * Two young blue dragons
 * Strafing breath weapon attacks are going to kill the duo without any chance to retaliate. -Loss
 * Two bebiliths
 * While this could normally be very dangerous, the combination of the marshal's Shake it off and the swordsage's Body Over Mind allows the duo to stave off the effects of the poison for the most part. Both the bebiliths do decent damage and have excellent HP, which means that the marshal might be worn down to no Battle Order points and lose. -50%/50%
 * Two vrocks
 * Basically the same as the last encounter, with Body Over Mind/Shake it off removing the Stunning Screech -50%/50%
 * Four Mind Flayers
 * Due to the high saves of both the marshal and the swordsage, the mind blasts are going to do very little against the duo. -Win
 * Two evil necromancers
 * Enervation is going to screw over both of the duo while the zombie/skeleton army keeps them at bay. -Loss
 * 12 trolls
 * That many trolls means a lot of attacks, which potentially means a lot of damage, but fortunately the marshal in his heavy armor and the swordsage's magnificent AC combined with Stand Your Ground is going to take care of the trolls' damage, especially with the fire damage that the swordsage can fling about to get past the trolls' regeneration. -Win
 * Two hordes of shadows
 * Without a caster who brings along Corpse Candle, the duo have no defense against the many touch attacks of the shadows. Obviously a... -Loss
 * This puts us at 3 wins, 3 losses, and 3 encounters that have a 50%/50% chance of winning/losing. Pretty damn close to balanced, depending on the circumstances of the specific encounter. --Ghostwheel 09:15, September 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * Congratulations. That said: is there a problem with allowing the marshal (perhaps only in the absence of allies) to affect themselves? I doubt it'd have any effect on the previous test, and you might get a decent result in a solo.


 * Mainly because that's not the point of the class. --Ghostwheel 07:47, December 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * Assuming it was changed, do you think there'd be any problems? Thanks.

HP Granted
I'm less than satisfied by the amount of HP granted; after fixing it, it's fine at most levels, but suffers strongly at certain levels, especially low ones. The big problem is that I'm not sure how much HP should be given at what levels--assume for a moment that for a sample encounter, the average party would face four enemies that each deal the amount of damage here 50% of the time based on their level--so each monster would deal 12.25 damage on average at level three if they hit, and they hit around 50% of the time. Looking for some brainstorming here, as well as a soundboard to bounce ideas off of. How much HP should the marshal grant, and why? On one hand, I want it to be truly meaningful and a potential lifesaver, but don't want it to automatically cancel out all the monsters' attacks if they all happen to hit a single character--or even three of them, I think, which should be against the odds anyway. --Ghostwheel 10:30, January 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure which ability you're referring to here. - TarkisFlux 18:10, January 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * "Stand Your Ground!" --Ghostwheel 20:56, January 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Most linear scaling is going to be better at lower levels than higher levels, especially if you're doing single point scaling. So you can probably start it fairly strongly and just not set it to keep up, so it gets progressively less good over time. I would probably start it such that you can mostly negate an attack at low levels (where one attack will mostly kill people anyway) and just not ramp it up as much (so that it doesn't completely negate things at higher levels where there's more room, at least at the balance level you probably want). I'd just give it a Level+Cha Mod x2 at all levels. At low levels, that will probably block a single regular hit, but it won't save you from being ganged up on or critted. At higher levels you've got maybe 30-50ish, which is slightly less effective against enemies because of multi-attacks and higher damage abilities, but the higher damage tolerances and decreased swinginess of combat make it tollerable. If you wanted to make it even less of a lifesaver at high levels, don't give them extra targets (or make them spread it around from the same pool of temp hp). - TarkisFlux 21:34, January 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Want to come to the channel? We're discussing it there as I type. --Ghostwheel 21:40, January 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * After talking it over in chat, we got to a similar conclusion as far as scaling goes, not multiplying the whole number but only a small part of it while still giving it the ability to be even more effective at lower levels and just as dip-friendly as it was before. Thanks for the input :-) --Ghostwheel 23:10, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Too Many Abilities?
I feel at times as though there are too many options to keep track of, and I'm considering either cutting down on some of the lower-level abilities that marshals get--that or making some of the free action ones into standard actions (Awesome Blow to be specific). Wanted a little more input before making the change though--thoughts? --Ghostwheel 10:14, September 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * If you mad it so that marshals can use awesome blow themselves and make an attack as part of that standard action, that would be a good start. Then a typical round might by Stand Your Ground, move, Awesome Blow or Stand Your Ground, Awesome Blow on an ally, Guided Attack. If you make it a standard, however, you will probably want to have it work with No Quarter.


 * Another moderately redundant ability is Step as One. You can already get your allies to move around, so I wouldn't bother with the 5ft. steps. --Andrew Arnott (talk, email) 13:09, September 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hmm... I would define the core of the class as Stand Your Ground, Awesome Blow, and Guided Attack. Feather Yon Foe is one of the less relevant abilities in my mind. No Quarter is more boring abilities in my mind (straight damage add) and something that I might look to cut if you're adamant on removing anything. Dizzying Retort could be folded into Awesome Blow by letting you use it on yourself, as Aarnott mentioned. I disagree with Aarnott about Step as One, however. I like that one. Break Free and Shake it Off are of a similar bent and could be combined. In general, yes, you have a lot of abilities, maybe a few of which could be removed or combined, but each has its own place (for the most part) so I'm not sure I'd consider it a glaring issue. -- Jota 20:31, September 30, 2010 (UTC)