Talk:Templar (3.5e Class)

I like this class a lot. It's powerful, but I like my 3.5 that way. Anyway, I have a few questions.

1. Does a Templar use his Charisma score to determine spell save DC's? Max Spell Level? Or, did you leave max spell level off, in light of the ability granted by the third Charity Oath? 2. What if a Cleric multiclasses into Templar - do the domains he picks up from his Piety Vows as a Templar also apply to his Cleric spellcasting? Nxwtypx 22:20, 30 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for taking an interest in the class. In order:


 * 1. The templar does, to the best of my knowledge (Tarkis can correct me if I err), use Charisma for all necessary spellcasting modifiers. The third benefit of Vow of Charity is still capped by both your maximum spell slot available and the applicable score of whomsoever is trying to cast the spell. Thus, it doesn't allow you to exceed any normal cap that you possess, nor does it allow characters to use your spell slots for anything higher than 6th level spells. That said, other characters should probably not be limited to Charisma when casting one of their spells from your spell slot, so as to make it equally beneficial for casters that don't rely on Charisma. It doesn't exactly say that now, but if Tarkis concurs we can certainly make an amendment there.


 * 2. If a cleric multiclasses, Templar domains only apply for templar spells, and ditto for domains chosen as part of the cleric class. Otherwise the dip potential of this class would be rather catastrophic. It may not be the most awesome thing, but it's a necessary caveat to keep spellcasting subservient to the rest of class and actually differentiate the templar from the cleric.


 * Hope that helped. - TG Cid (talk) 23:10, 30 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I concur on the Cha casting stuff, and have edited in the missing textual bits. They probably should have been there before anyway.
 * I think the wording there allows them to use your slots to power their spells, so they wouldn't be using Cha for it in that case (unless they were a Cha caster in the first places). And if they're using your slots to cast one of your spells, I don't see any reason to not make them use Cha for them other than bypassing the 10+spell level requirement.
 * The domains don't carry over, just like the rest of the spellcasting doesn't. The granted powers would though I guess, but they wouldn't advance at all. If you were considering a templar dip for those, I'd recommend playing a priest over a cleric. You'll get your piles of domains there without worrying about multiclassing.
 * - Tarkisflux Talk 00:26, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Templars and Spells (and Vows)
What's your stance on spells beyond the Player's Handbook? Say, those from the Spell Compendium, for example?

Since there's no Templar spell list beyond the one offered, its spellcasting feels a tad weak (beyond the range of domains gained by the Vow of Piety), even if it has access to all of them. Would it be fair to add a few slots of Advanced Learning, say, at odd levels (I think 5th, 9th, 13th and 17th maybe)? Not all people will focus on getting the vow of Piety (or keep it) in order to gain more spells, and those few new spells would allow for a larger breadth of Templar in terms of their spellcasting ability. I have the impression that, despite being partial, Templar spellcasting is an essential part of the class, so keeping it "intentionally small" might seem like an excuse. I can understand keeping it limited to healing and buffing spells, but if the aim is a Very High balance point, the class should have more options than those offered by the Vows.

Also, beyond its roleplaying application, is there another reason why not to take Vow of Perfidy? Its Thrice-Vowed ability is pretty badass, sacrificing a Thrice-Vowed power for the ability to gain a Once-Vowed and Twice-Vowed power from another vow, effectively netting you four Vows. Maybe I'm not looking at it the right way, but you can get more by always keeping Vow of Perfidy around, probably using the Thrice-Vowed effect to mimic Vow of Piety's powers and always get two different domains each day.

I'll have to check the Vows up close, but so far, the ones that offer more options (or rather, out of combat options) are Charity, Greed, Piety and Truth. T.G. Oskar (talk) 03:06, 31 October 2012 (UTC)


 * There's a few Spell Compendium spells here already actually, but not very many. I think Cid wanted to try to keep it as wiki friendly as possible, which meant limiting references to SRD and homebrew where possible. And while I would have been fine with more SpC items, it would start to make the list a bit large, which is something I wanted to avoid. Since they're a full list caster, I didn't want to overload them with options at any given time, and too many niche options would mean no overload but likely forgetfulness. They have a lot of niche recovery spells on their list, and would ideally gain a few utility spells from their domain selection. Which is an ok place for their spellcasting to be I think. It's intended to be essential, because they don't have a lot of other places to go for those things, but not a primary or even particularly powerful part of the class.


 * Advanced learning might be ok, but it would be a lot of work to do in a way that I was happy with. I want to help people avoid the temptation to grab direct combat spells, since their DCs don't keep up. I don't particularly want people cherry picking spells and ignoring domains either, which means working around those a bit. So setting that up would likely involve writing a list of options for them to choose from, and I don't know that it's worth it for a secondary class feature.


 * I don't think Perfidy is a must for the L3 ability, and think you missed the alternate selection part of the thrice vowed writeup. If you don't want Perfidy 1 and 2 but do want multiple vows, you can just do that. When you gain the ability to select a L3 vow, you can instead select a new vow and get both L1 and L2 benefits. In fact, because you get 4 L3 selections and only 3 of the others (not counting the bonus Piety), you pretty much have to do that. You don't get to reselect them like you can with Perfidy, but you may get abilities that you care about more in exchange.


 * And now that I've realized that's how the progression goes, I'm not sure I like it and may change it. Maybe move L3 back a couple of levels or give a free L2 piety at 7th (which would also deal with the Perfidy interaction nicely). But you'll still be able to just take extra L1/L2 things in place of a L3 no matter what.


 * I think the out of combat option stuff is a bit more spread around in the vows than that, but it is somewhat combat heavy. Part of that is because it's leaning on ToP skills for non-com a bit, and it loses those things if you're not using it. I don't think it has less options than a Tome Barbarian or Fighter even without them though. I'm happy to talk through ideas to expand their non-com abilities in the vows if you come up with anything. - Tarkisflux Talk 04:40, 31 October 2012 (UTC)


 * After IRC discussion with Cid, decided to add bonus piety at 7th. Which broadens their selection slightly, fixes the weird L3 issue (mostly, they still get it if they don't get a 3rd domain, but meh), and patches the perfidy / piety bug. - Tarkisflux Talk 05:57, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Author's Notes
Suggestions for changes to current vow names (purely grammatical and not mechanical change, because I like big words):
 * Vow of Taint = Vow of Corruption, Vow of Pestilence
 * Vow of Purity = Vow of Temperance
 * Vow of Truth = Vow of Integrity, Vow of Rectitude
 * Vow of Perseverance = Vow of Resilience
 * Vow of Clemency = Vow of Absolution, Vow of Penance

Actual mechanics suggestions for current vows:
 * Vow of Conquest: Some kind of domination/control effect was brought up for the thrice vowed effect of this vow. I am supportive of this change, but unsure how to execute. What if it kicks in when a creature would be reduced to 0 Wisdom by the previous effect? This may take a little too long to accumulate, but boosting the Wisdom damage would be risky in and of itself due to the power of that inidividual ability. So perhaps when the creature takes Wisdom damage they must also make a save or be dominated for their next turn?

Suggestions for more vows, fleshed in at the applicable sandbox page:
 * Vow of Progress/Modernity
 * Vow of Revenge

Suggestions for more Avenger styles:
 * Flagellant/Pariah: The templar exhibits his faith through his own personal suffering, and spurns possessions to make himself more empathetic with his deity's other subjects.

This last particular bit was inspired by the BotE's Vow of Poverty and is a big departure from the typical armored knight combat styles that we have been sticking with, so I think it's problematic on that front and also because it possibly treads on the toes of the monk insofar as the theme of "get badass by getting naked" theme. I also don't really have a lot of great ideas, although being a flagellant suggests some kind of tanking abilities revolving around damage soak that fit thematically with the class. They are all suggestions at this point anyway. - TG Cid (talk) 18:58, 22 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Thoughts on Vow Renames-
 * Corruption has unfortunate connotations that I don't think apply. Pestilence is more apt, but I'd want them to also be more persistent carriers of disease I think.
 * Temperance doesn't fit at all I think.
 * Integrity seems odd for truth, but Rectitude isn't bad I guess.
 * I support the resilience change.
 * I don't think either of those are as good as Clemency, which is already kind of a long word.
 * 2cp - Tarkisflux Talk 20:06, 22 September 2014 (UTC)


 * One out of five, success! - TG Cid (talk) 20:40, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Interesting Vows
The vows are great and all, but you could certainly have a little more fun:

Vow of Nudity
"I am Lady Godiva, twat of twats. Bow before my twins, ye mighty, and despair."


 * First: You gain an armor bonus to your AC equal to 1/3 your Templar level, and and equal amount as a enhancement bonus to your AC.
 * Second: You can fascinate every creature that can see you as a full-round action. Affected creatures must make a will save (wisdom-based) or stare, fascinated, as long as they see you and you spend full-round actions to continue the fascination. Any creature who successfully saves against the effect or is broken out of it is immune to it for 24 hours.
 * Third: You are affected as if you had a number of special armor properties with a bonus equal to 1/2 you level. You can change these properties with a 1-hour ritual. Also, your aura of fascination now affects all creatures that see you for one round without any action on your part.

Roleplaying Ideas: Perhaps you worship a god/ess of love. Maybe you believe that guarding yourself against the elements is unmanly. Perhaps you're just crazy. --Fluffykittens (talk) 23:15, 22 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I had an idea similar to this, but thought it would be better as an Avenger style due to the more expansive abilities able to be given therein. Sacrificing all the equipment and such requires a lot of rules and fair compensation for the character's trouble. - TG Cid (talk) 15:42, 23 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Maybe make it an ACF (ascetic templar) where they gain monk like abilities, but gain no class benefit from armor, weapons, or shields. --Fluffykittens (talk) 21:00, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Sample Build
I'm actually having a bit of difficulty comprehending the VH nature of this class. I'm sure it's there and I'm just stupid, so I was wondering if you could help me out. Could you put together in a reply to me a very brief sample VH build at like levels 10 and 15? Surgo (talk) 02:40, 23 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I could do that... and probably will in a bit, but ideally you could just grab random things and maybe not synergize well but still play the VH game. So if you have to go looking for it I think that's a different problem that needs solving. Assuming that it's there (which I might actually be wrong on), any idea why you're having trouble seeing it? - Tarkisflux Talk  03:07, 23 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Just a lot of options, difficult to see what fits into what at times...that's not really a problem. It's actually a good thing, some classes ought to be dead simple like the Samurai but others ought to appeal to the tinkerer's nature like this one. Surgo (talk) 03:55, 23 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Hardline stance + improved trip + tome feat mage slayer can stop enemies from doing anything, if you get in range. --Fluffykittens (talk) 04:04, 23 September 2014 (UTC)


 * @Fluffykittens - You can generally stay pretty close to range with knight's move or loyalty's second vow power. Or other domain abilities. Take it with hoplite to extend reach further.


 * @Surgo - Fair enough. Here's a half-ass build then: Charger style primary, herald style secondary, vow of resilience (twice at 10, thrice at 15), vow of valor (twice at 10, thrice at 15), and vow of dilligence (once at 10, twice at 15). I have no idea what domains you pick from (2 at 10, 3 at 15), but you get to reselect them daily from among your deity's list. I'm not even going to try to think about feats.


 * At 10 you can make magic arms and armor and have relevant spells from the war domain to do so just in cast, all your weapon attacks are considered aligned, you have swift action detect alignment and get 3rd round info, have longer / stronger full-attack charges with turns and more or less at-will air walk [note: charger may be kind of weak at these levels], can swift action 10 temp hp & sanctuary to all allies within close range every round, can't fall below 1 hp on any round that you charge or grant temp hp to allies, suffer reduced effects from fear, can respond to charges with an immediate action charge, can root yourself in place or mid-air, only need to sleep for 1 hour a night and get mundane stuff / research done about twice as fast. Plus 4th level spells cast on a full-list + domains mechanic, 2 selectable domain powers, and standard feats.


 * At 15 you add 1/day auto-raise dead [should maybe be revivify instead now that I think about it] for the cost of 2 Cha burn instead of a level, no longer need to eat, drink, breathe, or sleep [sleeping invalidates a vow benefit and may need to be revisited], get to continue charges if you destroy / kill the initial target up to the limit of your normal movement [it pairs better with other vows], add protection from X to your 15 temp hp / sanctuary effect, can revivify a dead ally for 1 round as a free action once per turn, have an on-hit 1-round frightening effect, and suffer reduced effects from fatigue / exhaustion. Plus 5th level spells, 3 selectable domain powers, and standard feats.


 * I could have made better choices in there probably, but I didn't feel like it. Hopefully that helps get a better sense of it. - Tarkisflux Talk 05:01, 23 September 2014 (UTC)


 * For domains, tome gluttony and tome strength turn you into a machine of destruction. For feat selection, pick up tome whirlwind so that you can hit up to (movement speed x reach) squares worth of enemies as a full-round action. When you hit BAB 16 and have cataphract, if you have whirlwind, you can make a full attack against a whole bunch of enemies. With vow of confrontation, you'll be handing out SODs to everyone you hit, or you can grab vow of conquest for irrresistable negative levels and Wis damage. Use a duom; it's a martial spear with reach that can strike adjacent. --Fluffykittens (talk) 06:58, 23 September 2014 (UTC)


 * We recently discussed whether the templar perhaps not doing enough damage was significant enough to make it lower than Very High balance. Due to the wealth of support and crowd control options, however, and the possibility for ubercharger-esque damage with much less necessary optimization than what is seen in standard charger builds, we weren't sure if damage was actually lacking or that the class couldn't be Very High even if it was. - TG Cid (talk) 14:29, 23 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks all. I get it. Surgo (talk) 16:43, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Picture
Should use this instead, obv :-P --Ghostwheel (talk) 21:37, 23 September 2014 (UTC)