Talk:Assassin, Tome (3.5e Class)

Balance Point
What with the access to any sorcerer/wizard (of specific schools) might this be unquantifiable, based on what spells you picked? That said, I'd still favor it personally. --Ghostwheel 14:46, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

Ratings

 * Weird old favor from before the current rating committee, so I'm nulling it and we can start over. Surgo 22:57, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

death attack
does it effect thing immune to sneak attack, like constructs?--NameViolation 01:02, March 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * As it says in the ability's description: "Assassins are well trained in eliminating magical or distant opponents, and do not have to meet the stringent requirements of a sneak attack". Surgo 01:09, March 30, 2010 (UTC)

power level: over 9000
2 good saves, better damage than a rogue (sure its only 1/2 rounds but its more than twice the damage and can affect enemies rogues cannot), casting as a bard but with access to wizard spells, and the ability to use a 9th level spell (implosion) or a quickened 6th level spell (flesh to stone, quickened that makes it a 10th level spell slot, epic level casting woo!) at level 13? Wow, sign me up for this class if any DM would be foolish enough to allow it.


 * LOL. thats "Tome" material for ya :P. --NameViolation 02:41, April 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's stronger than a rogue who only does one attack and needs to flank. That's not what Rogue level is. See here.
 * The Assassin actually does about on par with a Halfling Hurler, or any Rogue who dual-wields and has touch attacks. Which is really easy, since Acid Flasks and Alchemist's Fire exist and you can just have them. The Assassin only gets 2d6+1d6/level every two turns (and can't even do a normal attack on the turn he's "aiming"). A dual-flasking rogue can deal 2x sneak attack on top of weapon damage. The Assassin is genuinely not that much above the Rogue.
 * It has casting as a bard, and *doesn't* get the improved spell access the Bard gets due to having its own spell list.
 * It has specific spell-like abilites, at 13th level, which is the point where Wizards and Clerics and Druids are getting access to 7th level selectable spells. And the assassin's SLAs are just extra ways to do what he can already do with damage, with some modifications.
 * It just isn't as out there as you're making it out to be. D&D is *crazy* at high levels. --Quantumboost 03:05, April 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * In order:
 * Two good saves: Really? This is a thing for you? Lots of classes get two good saves. You open with this like it matters. Let's pretend this was just the final straw and compare to the druid then. Tons of really useful class abilities and two good saves. Not an issue there, why here?
 * Better damage than a rogue: Let's see... one attack every two rounds at +(level+2)d6 damage vs. the rogues (assume not TWFing for fun) 1 attacks at +(level/2)d6 per round. So the assassin has a slight advantage at low levels. And when the rogue starts getting multiple attacks the assassin starts getting multiple death attacks and still has the slight edge on damage. It's just all shifted to the second round. So yes, 2d6 more per attack per 2 rounds, in exchange for a round of doing nothing. And if you don't think a round of not acting matters, well you probably shouldn't read any more because we don't play even remotely similar games. It's a serious trade off. The point about it affecting more things is just mistaken or a result of a small ruleset, rogues can SA basically anything with spells that fit in wands and UMD at this point.
 * Bard access to wizard spells: Well, they haven't been level adjusted like a number of the bard spells have been, so you get them later than everyone else. And you get all of three schools. They are solid schools, but you are still quite limited. Is it better than the rogue's trapsense and evasion and 2 skill points (assuming for the moment that the other special abilities wash, which I'm not sure on), maybe, but it's not like the rogue couldn't get scrolls and UMD these anyway.
 * Spell-likes: Per day save or dies. Like the full casters get and like you could get with scrolls and UMD. Yeah, they're a bit stronger than those options, but you can't change them, and opponents can defend against that limitation. This is an issue why?
 * I genuinely don't get the complaints. Not of those items anyway. It's designed to be similar to a rogue, but with a different focus and different abilities. It does that, and it's really not much stronger than a rogue unless you're playing in a game where rogues don't use UMD and don't turn invisible to deny they opponents dex for some reason. - TarkisFlux 05:40, April 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * On better damage; a level 10 Rogue's DPR, with Craven (who doesn't take Craven), is about ~120, compared to the Assassin's ~95. This is with both of them having TWF. --TK-Squared 12:03, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

This class is far better than any Core class. It is for games in which rogues and assassins are supposed to be dominate characters with abilities greatly in excess of Druids, Wizards, and Clerics.


 * Care to support that at all? In what way is this class *as powerful* as a full druid, wizard or cleric, let alone more powerful? We've shown solid arguments that it is only as powerful as a rogue, can you counter those arguments? --Quantumboost 17:00, May 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think I've isolated why people have this reaction, QB. They see BIG NUMBERS OMG, and they see OMG YOU GET STUFF EVERYTHING LEVEL, SOMETIMES MORE THAN ONE THING A LEVEL! To the original poster, it isn't better than any Core Class. The Unholy Trinity would kick its ass. Core classes are not what homebrew is supposed to achieve, and if you say they are, you're either wrong, or lying. If you think the Core Paladin is somehow...GOOD, or that highly-trained martial artists really *should* have Medium BAB, you need to take a harder look at the game. Maybe start by worrying about the monsters rather than the classes. --Genowhirl 20:35, May 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * This class is super weak and it's abilities have no synergy. This class is far worse than any core class. It is for games where you want to be kicked around by the Ranger's animal companion or the Fighter's hireling.
 * - The preceding statement is not my actual opinion of the class, and is only intended to serve as a counter point to the recent hollow complaint about it since actual arguments or explaining position appear to not be the way this game is played. - TarkisFlux 23:06, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Some Minor questions.
--Nanotubes 17:13, May 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Could you clarify Nerve of the Killer, IT says your under protection from evil, as well as Limited Immunity.
 * 2) Level 15-20 is the Third attack at BaB 6-10 or 1-5?


 * The limited immunity bit is setup text implying that you gain the same temporary immunity to possession, charm, and compulsion effects that SRD:Protection from Evil would give you. It's not actually a separate thing.
 * This class is built using a Tome iterative attacks variant found in Races of War (3.5e Sourcebook)/Advanced Combat. With that variant your tertiary attacks are never more than -5 below your primary attack. If you were not using that variant it would follow the normal 1-5 progression.
 * Hope that helps :-) - TarkisFlux 17:25, May 17, 2010 (UTC)