Talk:Unarmored Duskblade (3.5e Alternate Class Feature)

I was told this was underpowered. What do you think?The Dire Reverend 17:52, 30 April 2011 (UTC)


 * It really is. Armored mage makes you able to actually wade into melee and use your duskblade abilities without worrying about getting whomped by smackity monsters (in theory, at least -- 3.5e has some fun with large variances in the RNG). I'd throw in a monk-like AC bonus at 1st level (which is what I expected to see when I saw the title in recent comments). Give their Int bonus to AC in addition to Dex. That would be a start to improving it. Maybe also add faster movement too. You can push up the level of some of the other abilities to compensate. --Aarnott 00:00, 1 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Do you mean this?The Dire Reverend 21:35, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the duskblade adds her Intelligence bonus (if any) to her AC. In addition, a duskblade gains a +1 bonus to AC at 5th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every five duskblade levels thereafter (+2 at 10th, +3 at 15th, and +4 at 20th level).

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the duskblade is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.


 * Yes, that is exactly what I mean. --Aarnott 10:53, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Balance Issues
A person talking about this ACF on the Giant in the Playground forums stated that this ACF removes MAD. This is what I said. "While its all fine and dandy that i get my casting stat for a bonus to AC, I still will need at least a 24 in intelligence to reach the same amount of protection a full plate armor (not counting magical enhancements you would get) would grant.

You still need a decent strength score for physical damage, a good constitution score for hit points because you're going to get targeted for dealing a lot of damage, and dexterity to make up for the enhancement bonuses you don't have now. Before you would not worry about dex because of the full plate you're trudging around in. So that's one ability dependance more than a regular duskblade has."

Would you agree with my defense?The Dire Reverend 06:48, 9 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Anything GitP says should be taken with a grain of salt - and this is physical proof. This doesn't make the class less MAD, it makes it more so. Adding an additional stat to AC is not the magical, problem-solving thing everyone makes it out to be. You are still out-AC'd by a wizard with a single feat for most of the day at low levels, and at higher levels, you just blow chunks even more, because your Int bonus scales a hell of a lot slower than people's AC benefits. So in short, your defence should have read more like the kind of stuff I post. But to put it simply, your defence makes sense, pay less attention to GitP, and keep up the good work. - MisterSinister 09:52, 9 May 2011 (UTC)


 * That's not absolutely true--let's do a quick comparison.
 * At level 20, a heavy two-hander fighter might have an AC of 10 (base) + 13 (+5 mithral full plate) + 5 (ring of deflection) + 5 (amulet of natural armor) + 3 (dex) = 36.
 * On the other hand, let's say you went ahead and took a single feat to make yourself less MAD. So assuming starting int is 16 and you picked a race that gets a +2 bonus, at level 20 you'll have an int of 16 (base) + 2 (race) + 5 (level) + 5 (inherent/tome/wish) + 6 (item) = 34 (+12). Now, the AC of this character would be 10 (base) + 5 (dex) + 8 (bracers of armor) + 5 (ring of deflection) + 5 (amulet of natural armor) + 12 (int) = 45.
 * As you can see, while you might still out-AC the wizard, you're going to clearly and easily out-AC the heavier-armored fighters with something like this. It even holds true if you don't boost int that much--let's say you start at 16, and just add a +6 item without the race. You'd still have an AC of 10 (base) + 6 (int) + 5 (dex) + 8 (bracers of armor) + 5 (ring of deflection) + 5 (amulet of natural armor) = 39, which isn't as far from the fighter as the last example, but still trumps him soundly.
 * In short, at higher levels adding additional stats to AC outweighs anything armor can give, even if it scales a little more slowly. (Not that a +6 item is that costly by level 13ish.) --Ghostwheel 10:31, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Edit - also you're far less prone to getting hit by "screw you over" touch attacks with this. --Ghostwheel 10:32, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
 * So, do you have any suggestions to make it less overpowered? I don't want to be known as a person who excretes bad homebrew. The Dire Reverend 16:21, 9 May 2011 (UTC)


 * While I don't agree that this is overpowered or bad in any way, if you wanted to reduce it's effectiveness you could allow them to use the higher of their Int or Dex for their AC, but not both. - Tarkisflux 16:42, 9 May 2011 (UTC)


 * That doesn't fix the problem of not being able to wear armor (or at least it doesn't fix it much). Replacing Dex with Int would be good only if you could still wear armor. The idea is to make Int replace armor completely. One idea would be to make the unarmored AC bonus from Int an armor bonus. Then it won't stack with bracers, which brings that crazy 45 AC down to 37, which is much more comparable to the 36 AC. --Aarnott 16:53, 9 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Yeah, that's a good fix too. - Tarkisflux 16:56, 9 May 2011 (UTC)


 * I Like it a lot as well. I'm going to make it so.The Dire Reverend 17:19, 9 May 2011 (UTC)