Talk:Judge of Existence (3.5e Class)

Check out the Archive for older discussions.

Ratings

 * Fox, yes, revamp happened recently. Much less to read. However, Tarkisflux is working on rewording it - thus would suggest holding back on rating until he is finished (to keep from having to rerate again and again).--Franken Kesey (talk) 04:16, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Article is now ready for rating updates.--Franken Kesey (talk) 18:28, 21 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Main changes done, some of the ratings need to be refreshed. --Franken Kesey (talk) 23:28, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Comments on New Version
Not a rating yet, just some comments. Everything here could benefit from streamlining the advancement descriptions. Bullet points, single line entries for upgrades, splitting things up a bit more, putting upgrades in the table, something needs to be done to improve readability. It is hard to read and hard to follow, but looks like it might be ok underneath all that, maybe. It's hard to tell and easy to miss problematic stuff in the current form. - Tarkisflux Talk 00:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
 * Shaping that isn't treated as a spell, like wood and stone objects, needs a volume. Because shaping a planet is dumb.
 * The whole shaping section is hard to read. Bullet points are your friend.
 * Telekinesis may as well be its own class feature, rather than something hidden in shape. Referencing pounds of force is fine if you're a physicist, like me, and bad if you're a normal gamer because no one else knows how that works. Instead do maximum object weight and general movement (ft/round, dancing property, etc.)
 * Not being able to move magic items is bizarre.
 * Sound shape references a Deception check, which is not a thing.
 * Transmutation... I skipped it.
 * Insight to saves is straight up broken.
 * Save DCs are generally calculated with 1/2 class level, not 2/3. It's not a big difference, but it is a weird one without justification.
 * The basic electro nuclear attack may as well be all the time, with multiple bolts per action granted as they level up (or even just make it an attack action so they get 1 per iterative attack). The healing and explosion thing may as well remain per day.
 * Reincarnate is weird given the fluff. Recommend revivify (or psionic revivify if you want to stay in the SRD) instead. Uses a healing use or whatever.
 * Gravitational force... I also skipped it. And I'm pretty much skimming from here out...
 * Earth is not a damage type. Recommend bludgeoning / piercing instead.
 * Divine Rank 1 at 20 is nuts. Go with 0 if you have to (it's a thing), but even that is nuts.


 * Thank you. If I could show my gratitude in more than words, I would. And will return the favor on request. Here is what has recently answered:


 * 1) shaping given a volume
 * 2) added lots of bullets, you are right they are much better
 * 3) Telekinesis now a feature, and is much more simplified.
 * 4) The previous version did mention that you could move magical items, just not shape them. However the new version is hopefully more clear on this.
 * 5) changed to an opposed Will save
 * 6) insight removed
 * 7) Most saves are fixed to 1/2, with only 1 exception: Gravitational Force is “+ class level” the logistics of having two different gravities for such a large area account for why this is more challenging.
 * 8) electro nuclear has had some major changes (mostly to simplify), the reincarnate is still there, but may put revivify instead.
 * 9) removed Earth damage and increased Fire damage with cinder cone
 * 10) The final capstone is up in the air, what would you suggest as a final ability of the judge?


 * More universal advancement would be nice, will start working on having universal damage types at least. Thank you so much for your help with this, every link is important.--Franken Kesey (talk) 02:18, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


 * OK... was looking over the changes, and the the universal advancement table hit. And all the damage types went and changed. And while some of that advancement looks ok (if overly verbose), the DCs are weird for reasons I can't figure out. Why are they not all 10 + half level + mod? Randomly changing the base 10 to something else does bad things to the die mechanics. It's 10 because that's the low average of the d20 that people are rolling against your DC, and making it not 10 alters the fundamental success rate assumptions that go into the whole save system. YOU NEED A GOOD REASON TO DO THAT; WHY ARE YOU DOING THAT?


 * Moving on. I guess we're just doing general comments for a while until the big changes calm down. Since you want a more unified advancement structure, I don't see any reason to have different pools for transmutations and shapings and divinations. You could probably get away with doubling the number at each level and letting people do whatever they wanted with them. If you really want some sort of limit, you could do a concurrent effect one where you can't have two active transmutes at the same time or a cool down one where you can't do another shaping within 5 minutes of your last one.


 * Gravity might work better as a zone transmutation than its own thing. You already have magic and alignment based zone adjustments, why not gravity too? It seems like you could simplify it enough to get it into the same format as your other transmutations. The limitation that you need something to stand on at the edge of the ability seems unnecessary, for example, since things could just start falling one way and then fall the regular direction when they hit the edge. If you just reverse gravity, things just float at the top of the zone and don't fall either direction until the duration is up. Since it's centered on the Judge and they're going to take it in the face too, you might as well just remove the Fort save and go with the grab on rules from climb + normal falling rules when you hit the edge or whatever (because you just fell x feet, even if it was along 'the ground'). Referencing existing rules is generally better than writing new ones IMO, and it also serves to simplify the ability while also making it more familiar.


 * And a general comment, I'm not sure this feels like a Judge of anything anymore, and the judge flavor feels sort of tacked on. It might be helpful to focus on the transmutation aspects of the class and less on the universal law thing that seems barely intact. If you wanted a different name, the land / area transmutation sort of reminds of the Final Fantasy Tactics Geomancer (which isn't anything like the classical Geomancer, but meh), and you might be able to steal that one. - Tarkisflux Talk 05:39, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Draft a way to make the gravity alteration a part of transmutations. Fixed saves to be standard. --Franken Kesey (talk) 06:15, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


 * In the style of holy then:
 * Horizontal Gravity areas cause all creatures standing within them to fall prone, and begin to slide past the ground as if it were a shear cliff face. They may attempt to grab the ground and cease their fall as if they were falling past a cliff face. If they fail to grab on, they suffer falling damage as normal when land on or bounce off of an appropriately angled wall or fall outside of the area of effect. The total distance of their fall is equal to their horizontal distance traveled. Flying creatures within the area adjust their heading so that they are now pointed at the ground. They may fly normally within the area, so long as they have sufficient maneuverability to turn and avoid a collision with the ground on their next turn. Colliding with the ground causes them to cease flying and begin falling, as previously indicated. This has no effect on swimming or burrowing creatures, other than to confuse their sense of direction.
 * Reversed Gravity areas cause all creatures standing to begin to fall upwards as if affected by reverse gravity. Flying, swimming, or burrowing creatures are unaffected aside from their confusing their sense of direction.


 * I left off diagonal gravity areas, because they mostly push people to the ends and then buffet them down to the edge without substantial harm or discomfort. In about a round. So it's kind of boring, but it could be written up if that was a thing you wanted. These two cover the "remove for a while" and "remove and cause damage" cases, which seemed more common by far. - Tarkisflux Talk 07:03, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


 * In other news, shaping sound could do with a range and stuff, and the permanency thing isn't that clear either.
 * It's odd to call something electricity if it can be any damage type.
 * Elemental Form sounds dumpster-divable, and you'd probably have to for it to be worthwhile most of the time.
 * The Ex-Judge section is, like that section usually is, annoying.
 * Other than that, and the gravity stuff Tarkisflux is talking about, this class actually seems quite playable. --Foxwarrior (talk) 07:34, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


 * Fixed gravity, and simplified, added another gravity ability. Added zone limiters, and a range (the judge need not be at its center anymore). Elemental stuff now completely removed. Shape sound removed – did not want to have another calculation. Permanency removed, all shapings are now permanent. Fox, if a player brought you this class for your campaign, would you allow it? --Franken Kesey (talk) 22:31, 31 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I've allowed (probably multiple) classes I've liked less.
 * By the way, 50 cubic feet isn't very much; it's less than one 5-foot cube. --Foxwarrior (talk) 06:52, 1 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Fixed to 5' cubes (what I had intended, had bad wording). What is keeping you from liking the features? (Not fluff, we can work on that later.) --Franken Kesey (talk) 20:54, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

A Bit Lost Here
I'm not seeing any descriptions for fission/fusion abilities. Are they already listed, were they previously listed, or are they stand-ins until there's a decision on how they work? --Maninorange (talk) 08:33, 4 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Stand ins, have features from older version (if curious check out the two variations at bottom of page). Do you have any ideas on transmutations past level 16? --Franken Kesey (talk) 08:37, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Confusion
There have been a number of criticisms on confusion from wording and issue with flavor. Therefore, I would like to ask what specific lines are confusing, and if anyone would like to draft better wording with flavor. --Franken Kesey (talk) 20:05, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
 * The transmutations. Good god, the Transmutations. I can't seem to figure out what's going on there - you need to make it a bit clearer. --Luigifan18 (talk) 00:30, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Better? --Franken Kesey (talk) 01:27, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

New New Version
Are you done with major changes for a bit? I've been ignoring this since it seemed in pretty severe flux, but if that's calming down I was going to take another look sometime in the next couple of days. And probably take you up on your rewording offer. Would you prefer suggestions on talk or direct editing of the article? - Tarkisflux Talk 23:09, 5 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Major changes are done, would prefer suggestions in talk.--Franken Kesey (talk) 23:16, 5 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Have you started reviewing the page? --Franken Kesey (talk) 03:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)


 * No. Next couple of days. Godling is next on my list. - Tarkisflux Talk 03:33, 6 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Then will remove the Universal Advancement. When do you think you will be looking at it?--Franken Kesey (talk) 04:07, 6 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Just do whatever you need to do to it, and I'll look at it when I get around to it. Small blocks of time for quick messages I have, larger blocks of time to read and ponder full classes are in shorter supply. - Tarkisflux Talk 04:15, 6 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Added example below. Nothing else to add to class. --Franken Kesey (talk) 19:43, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Ok then, let's begin. We'll go piecemeal because of text and occasional mechanical rewrites, and hope that works out ok. Should you question a design decision please ask for additional clarification, but if it's just not to your preference take the parts that you like and leave the rest.


 * Edit - it occurs to me that this may have come across a bit more heavy handed than I intended. I'm really not trying to step all over your design and wording choices so much as I'm trying to clarify them, but there's always going to be some of the writer in any suggestion. If anything, think of the stuff below as what I would try doing to meet your design goals, and please complain loudly if I go overboard with the changes or stop meeting your design goals, or just comment a bit if things look good. Silence is hard to read in this medium. - Tarkisflux Talk 04:09, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Detection
Let's start here, at the beginning or whatever. The ability encourages you to dumpster dive for your favorite spell on a beneficial list, and I hate that sort of thing. Much better to do the dumpster diving on the design side and just assign the abilities at the levels that you want people to get them. So instead I'd recommend just determining what options are available and then listing them. You can keep the level based format if you want, but it's a VH class and I don't see any reason to keep them from getting 9th level detect spells that you've pre-approved when they're high enough level. The acquisition rate is also uneven, for reasons that I'm not really clear on, but that's a minor gripe. Anyway, I'm going to even that out and roll it together with some really absent fluff and a pre-determined option setup like so:

 : A judge must have sufficient evidence and information about the world and creatures around him to deliver appropriate verdicts and use the laws efficiently. To that end, all judges acquire a number of detection abilities that mimic spells to assist them with their deliberations. Every judge automatically detect magic and detect poison  as well as one other least detection of their choice. They gain additional detections as described below.


 * A judge learns a new least detection at levels 1, 2, and 4.
 * A judge learns a new lesser detection at levels 5, 7, and 9. Instead of learning a new lesser detection, they may learn two least detections.
 * A judge learns a new greater detection at levels 10, 12, and 14. Instead of learning a new greater detection, they may learn two lesser detections.
 * A judge learns a new subpena detection at levels 15, 17, and 19. Instead of learning a new subpena detection, they may learn two greater detections.

A judge may use any detection ability that they know without preparing it ahead of time, but may use no more detection abilities in one day than their Feature Limit. Their options for detection abilities appear below.


 * Least Detections: 
 * Lesser Detections: 
 * Greater Detections: 
 * Subpena Detections: 


 * On spell choices
 * Read magic doesn't really do anything for them, and could be removed.
 * Greater status is weird, since it does the same thing as status but allows you to cast spells through the link (that you don't really have). It could be removed.
 * No SRD:Detect Thoughts as a least or lesser and SRD:Brain Spider as an epic?
 * Could also do SRD:Arcane Sight as a lesser or greater and SRD:Greater Arcane Sight as an epic if you think they fit.
 * Did you see Eye of the Gods (3.5e Spell) for another epic possibility? And maybe Cid's version of Foresight (3.5e Spell)? You don't have any other 9th level spells in here though, and that might be the reason you excluded them.
 * Otherwise I like your selections and think they're at reasonable levels. You seem to have leaned towards keeping things less crazy on the high end, and that's fine. You need a couple more epic selections though, hence my suggestions for new things. As is they get 3 chances to pick from the 2 that you have on offer. - Tarkisflux Talk 04:02, 10 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Response: Language and mind divinations (Comprehend Language, Tongues, Detect Thoughts, Discern Lies, etc.) are not in the selection becouse I did not want this class to be diplomatic – instead a bit apart from party politics. For similar reasons seer spells and abilities are also not listed, to keep it from dealing with gods or the future. The judge only deal with the present and what can be explained. Was looking into high level divinations that are not of either of the four categories (language, mind, future or gods), and their does not appear to be much of a selection – even in homebrew. If you know of any good spells from other books will add, then post the rules of the spells (from other books) in a subpage. Thank you.

Shape
Rational: The standardizations are to reduce calculations: duration/permanency, range, area of effect and Save. However, most shapes could follow a progression like detect (least, lesser, etc.) – and retain the standardization. There are a few shapes that expand older articles (chill/heat, density, enlarge/reduce) which would need separate consideration. Wood, metal, glass, and gems simplify the more normal shapes (warp wood, shape wood, etc.), and also reduce number of shapes listed. --Franken Kesey (talk) 15:25, 10 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't know that it makes sense to insert that progression here because they're not picking from a list, just getting defined class features. So I'd probably skip it, but go ahead if you want to see how it works out. I don't know that I'll be able to get to a complete going over and text update until tomorrow anyway. - Tarkisflux Talk 20:45, 10 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Made a couple spells to fill get what was wanted from shape. Now it is much more simplified. Skipping this feature is fine, transmutation has been the real issue of this class from the beginning, and needs to be completely redone.--Franken Kesey (talk) 17:27, 11 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Given that you have a bunch of "select X from Y list" abilities in here now, the detection format makes more sense. I think it might be more clear to do it that way instead after looking it over again. It's somewhat odd since no other class has two selection mechanics like that, but I don't see another way to make it clearer. - Tarkisflux Talk 05:00, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * [Edit] Getting to trans. Offered rewording advice, and rewording advice or actual text is what I'm going to do. Trans is at the bottom, and I'm happy to save the biggest problem for last ;-) - Tarkisflux Talk 05:09, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Shape altered, only one part of it now has a selection. It would be a lot of abilities to automatically give to players if selection was removed. But, if a major issue, can see removing half and changing it back to the older version. --Franken Kesey (talk) 06:29, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The new format of shape seems fine. - Tarkisflux Talk 04:18, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Telekinesis
This is a weird form of the ability. Since you can use objects as weapons, and you can use the ability as a move action, you get move action attacks with this in addition to whatever cool judge stuff you're doing with your standard actions. That probably needs to go. The carrying capacity thing is also weird. Normally carrying too much causes you to get weighed down and suffer slowness and armor check penalties and the like... but I don't see why those things would apply in this case. Some of your use cases are poorly defined as well.

So I'm going to suggest instead a simple call to the SRD Telekinesis, with a DC and range change (because the range was a good call). Something like:

 : Beginning at 2nd level, a judge can order the laws of reality in such a way as to make objects move without manipulating them directly. They may use telekinesis at-will with a caster level equal to their judge level, though only out to medium range (100' + 10'/class level). When used against a creature, the save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 the judge's class level + the judge's intelligence modifier.

The spell covers the sustained force case you wanted, the combat maneuver case you wanted, and adds a violent thrust to hit people with heavy things or fling them back for approaching the bench. It also covers weight scaling already, though you could probably do you own weight scaling if you wanted them using heavier things earlier (I'm not sure it's a good idea though).

Master of Matter
The skill bonuses seem entirely unnecessary to me, but it may just be a case of me not seeing the fluff tie for them. It's a skill bonus so I mostly don't care about it, but still, why are they there?

The save bonus is slightly more relevant and not particularly troublesome, but it should probably be on a different attribute. They're going to be stacking Int to the heavens anyway, giving them save bonuses on top of class effectiveness for their trouble seems a bit gauche. I'd prefer if it had some sort of fluff explanation as well, because I don't know why you think it belongs there and it feels off despite being useful. Even something like "As a judge better learns the laws of reality, they gain the ability to exert their will against them to maintain their own integrity. They may add half of their Charisma modifier to all of their saves" would sort of fill the fluff void and sell it better. And I prefer Cha to Wis for this ability, but that may just be a preference for an attribute that isn't doing save boosting duty already. - Tarkisflux Talk 04:18, 20 August 2013 (UTC)


 * If you're going to stick with Wisdom and add the full modifier to all of their saves, you may want to give them a poor Will save progression instead of the good one. They care about wisdom and get double of it, so the change only means that they have a solid will save instead of a really really great one.


 * Would it be better if all judge saves were good, but the added ability bonus was removed? --Franken Kesey (talk) 17:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)


 * You mean the bonus Wis modifier to everything? You could do that I guess, it certainly makes boosting saves harder to pull off. Is there a reason why they should have all good saves though? - Tarkisflux Talk 20:18, 22 August 2013 (UTC)


 * With their control over things, Fort seams the most fitting with Will coming in to resist persuasions. Reflex has a use here in understanding timing and positioning. And certainly a non-ability boost (i.e., +1 to all saves every 5 levels), would be worse. --Franken Kesey (talk) 20:27, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Transmutation
Ok, I agree wholeheartedly that this is a huge mess. So we're going full rewrite / reorganization here, and hopefully that works out alright.

Also, some ability modifying, because basically infinite selectable gems / adamantine at 4 is crazy. And transmuting magic items is sunder levels of dumb when you can just turn them off by modifying the magic in the area. And maintaining the tier thing is kind of asking for tiers for every element (in addition to being weird to begin with). And immediate action transmutations don't need to be a thing. And s

 : At 3rd level, a judge may issue corrections on the current form of reality, effectively transforming what is into something else. Transmuting requires a standard action, affects a sphere with a radius up to that indicated on the class table above (though the judge may elect to transmute a smaller area), and has a range of up to 400' + 40' / class level. Transmutations of physical objects are instantaneous and may not be dispelled or reversed. These transmutations only affects natural or worked material; they may not directly transmute creatures or magically enchanted material. Transmutations of properties have a duration of 1 minute per class level, and may be resisted with either a Fortitude or Will save (as specified by the category) of DC 10 + 1/2 class level + intelligence modifier. These are also not subject to dispel or reversal, but may be countered by certain spell effects.

A judge may transmute in this way a number of times per day up to their Feature Limit. Initially each step counts as one use against this limit. At 12th level, a judge may transmute two steps as part of the same transmute use, though doing so requires 2 consecutive rounds of standard actions as both transmutations are completed. If the second standard action does not follow on the next round, it is treated as a separate use.

The options available for the transmutation results depends entirely on what is present initially. There are 7 basic categories that a judge can work with: earth, water, air, fire, gravity, time, and magic. If multiple types of material are in the area, only the category selected is affected.

Earth includes dirt/sand, stone, metal, gemstones, and non-living organic material (wood, food, etc.).
 * At 3rd level, a judge may transmute any type of earth into another type of earth (dirt to stone, dirt to metal, metal to wood, etc.), but may not change any earth into gemstones yet. They have no control over the specific form of the result, and transmuting a large pile of sand into metal may provide a large mix of materials.
 * At 3rd level, a judge may transmute any type of earth into liquid water or standard fire.
 * At 5th level, a judge may specify the type of dirt/sand, stone, or non-living organic material that they create as a result of their transmutation. Thus they could turn pine into cedar, sandstone into marble, or deceased creatures into a delicious feast. Attempting to create or purify food with this ability results in sufficient food for 3d4 meals for a medium creature, +1d4 meals per 2 levels above 5; the excess material is unfit to eat.
 * At 5th level, a judge may elect to exclude some types of earth from a transmutation area. They could elect to only transmute the wood in an area to water rather than all of the earth in an area, for example.
 * At 9th level, a judge may combine both earth and fire to transmute earth into lava. Exposure to this lava functions as indicated in the SRD. Under typical conditions, a thin shell of igneous rock will form over the cooling lava after 2 hours. This shell supports no more than 5 pounds of force, which doubles every hour until the lava is fully cooled after 48 hours. Particularly cold conditions may hurry this process, while particularly hot conditions may extend it indefinitely.
 * At 11th level, a judge may specify the metal that they create as a result of their transmutation. No more than 1/100th of their transmutation area may be transmuted into adamantine, mithral, or similar rare metals.
 * At 11th level, a judge may transmute metal into gemstones, though the gemstones created may not be specified and are often of poor quality.
 * At 15th level, a judge may specify the gemstones that they create as a result of their transmutation,

Water includes steam, thin and thick liquids (water, oil, acid, jellies), and ice.
 * At 3rd level, a judge may transmute any type of water into another type of earth (ice to steam, oil to water, etc.), but may not change any water into jelly, oil, or acid yet.
 * At 3rd level, a judge may transmute any type of water into calm air or dirt.
 * At 5th level, a judge may transmute water into jelly. This substance grants a +5 bonus to jump checks, but is treated as difficult terrain for the purposes of movement and balance.
 * At 7th level, a judge may transmute water into oil. Oil created by this effect functions as that created by the grease spell, except that it has no duration.
 * At 9th level, a judge may transmute water into acid. Exposure to this acid function as indicated in the SRD. Unless contained in a metal or glass container, this acid will be absorbed into its surroundings (damaging them significantly) or evaporate, reducing it's size by 1 foot in radius per hour after creation.

Air Set
 * At some levels, gets gust of wind / control winds references (this is instead of the pushing creatures thing, which is weird).

Fire Set
 * At some level, gets glass.

And so on.

Sorry that's not complete, it's taking longer than I thought to write those out and I need to get to other things. But the format and ideas behind them should be clear. I'll give you a bit to think on it and make some changes before I come back to talk about the levels that you're giving things out at. - Tarkisflux Talk 06:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Fix to, with minor alterations, and reduction in wording. Yes, progression shall be next after transmutation. Originally had it: A) 2, 6, 10, 14 normal transmutations; B) 4, 8, 12 gravity transmutations; C) 10, 14, 16, 18 alignment/magic/time-space transmutations. With odd levels taking one the lesser shape, detect, and other minor abilities. But can see this being changed. However, would like transmutation progression to be separate from all other feature progression in this class. Thank you so much, looks almost complete. Will apologies before-hand for the other two works.--Franken Kesey (talk) 22:13, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Awesome, love the new changes you have made. Keep it up. What would clean up the magic type?


 * This class has little ability progression after 12th level. (Abet, what it does get is spectacular.) Should there be a new feature at 16th or 20th level?--Franken Kesey (talk) 01:26, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Misc
After the class feature header and before the actual class features you have a note about CL and range.... and it's really really weird. The placement I mean. I'm so used to reading classes that I don't even read that line anymore, because no one puts actual mechanical information there. So the part where you did that is weird.

The range override is also a bit odd, and needs to go. When you're referencing a spell, the CL line is enough since it will affect the range already. When referencing anything else, you want the range with the ability for ease of lookup. But really, there's no reason to override spell ranges in the first place; detect magic does not need that sort of range, for example. I'd skip it entirely and just do range lines in abilities as needed. - Tarkisflux Talk 05:09, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * CL and range fixed. Now, only transmute and telekinesis have a range mentioned on this page.--Franken Kesey (talk) 06:29, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Another misc thing - the save recommendations under 'abilities' at the top are unnecessary. Pretty much every class needs to buy a cloak of resistance to keep up with caster DCs because of attribute scaling. And getting Con and Wis for saves is similarly standard advice, though the Wis advice is weird given that they already have a good will progression. In general, that section is used only for attributes that are particularly important for the class. And that's mostly Int here, with maybe Cha if the save change goes through (above). The physical attributes don't really do anything because they don't melee or arrow people it seems (except with TK, which doesn't count), so they don't need to get added in. And Wis doesn't do anything special for them... so it doesn't need to be there either. - Tarkisflux Talk 04:29, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Nolan's Comments
This class is much more powerful than ones that I'm used to seeing. You give this class twice the skill points per level (4x at first level), compared to what I thought was normal until now. After looking at your example of a lv-10 character, it seems that he can do whatever he wants as a free action every round, plus casting his devastatingly powerful spells on his turn. This is a little too much for my taste. From a technical standpoint, everything in this class seems to work well enough. In fact, I really like the way you organized the transmutations: earth->water->air->fire->earth, etc. You could call it "The Circle of Alchemy." Now that I think about it, you hinted at this circle a little bit, but I think you should make it explicit from the outset. Your description of this should be right near the top of the section on Transmutations. Also, don't use '=' signs between words. Use arrows '->'. This will make a lot more sense to the technical-minded people reading this. So, other than those little complaints, I can tell that you put a crap-ton of work into this class and I, for one, would be proud of it. --Nolanf (talk) 21:31, 16 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the review. Comments and questions:
 * 1) 4x at first level is standard, and 8+Int is high, but the same as a rogue. The class being about knowledge and moment, being at the high end fits.
 * 2) Judge cannot do any judge ability as a free action, and can only do two immediate transmutations each day. As far as doing whatever they want: this is the flavor of the class to an extent. The extent being: a) judge cannot alter living-things (i.e., heal, directly kill, enlarge monster etc.); b) judge cannot alter, speak to, or do any divine actions; c) judge cannot create objects (only transmute and shape them); and d) judge have no social altering abilities (charm person, intimidate, calm emotions, etc.). However, a larger enumeration of what exactly is too much for your taste would help in solving the problems.
 * 3) Drafting a diagram now which will show the base types, and what can be transmuted - but this will take some time. It is a marvelous idea. Until then, was using the equal sign instead of arrow to signify that a transmutation can go in both directions. Pride is only a comfort to be used when all else fails, and the creator has become stubborn of change. As always, every comment makes you a part of the creation. --Franken Kesey (not logged in)


 * I guess what I really felt was too powerful was the Judge's ability to change matter from a long long long distance away. I think that it should be limited to touch or to a short radius. --Nolanf (talk) 00:46, 21 August 2013 (UTC)


 * You do not have issue with the range of telekinesis or shape? (Entangle, Pyrotechnics, Control Water, Control Winds, Diminish Plants, Move Earth, Plant Growth, Silent Image, and Control Weather have a range of Long or greater.)


 * What about the range bothers you? The fact that they can attack while still being safe? Ability to control initiative? Is it an issue with flavor (having to transfer the matter between - thus a chain, not simple equation)? --Franken Kesey (talk) 18:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)


 * That never really occurred to me before. I'm learning new things about this game all the time. For instance, in practice, characters are very rarely 400 feet away from the center of the area of their spell, so the "long" range is more or less moot anyway.
 * As for flavor, I've been conditioned that when I see the word "Transmutation," I automatically think of the anime Full Metal Alchemist (I think there's a homebrew class for that already - but don't worry, it's nothing like this). In that cartoon, the alchemists can only transmute by touch. In the months since the last time I posted here, I've changed my position on the whole range issue because I've had more experience with magic users in this game. Now, I think that if a level-4 druid can throw a fireball over 100 feet as a ranged touch attack (pretty powerful, in my opinion), then it's perfectly reasonable that one of your judges should be able to do the things he can do.
 * Speaking of things I like, I noticed the changes you've made to the functionality of Transmutation and I think they're great. It seems complicated at first glance, but it really makes a lot of sense when you get into it. The gravity stuff, especially, would be fun to play around with.
 * I wonder, have you ever had the chance to test this character out in a real game? See how he functions after a few level-ups and how he fares in different environments and conditions? I'm only asking because the engineer in me is a stickler for testing things thoroughly. --Nolanf (talk) 06:01, 18 October 2013 (UTC)


 * The balance ranges on this wiki, low, moderate, high and very high, attempt to correct the inherent imbalance of most dnd games. A monk is really fun to play in combat, but for most of the town and character creation their options are highly limited. Thus the idea here is for people to play classes of similar power (for example, a Tenken, or variant, works better when playing with spellcasters).
 * As far as testing this class, I have attempted to bring it into two different campaigns. Both failed due to reasons outside of this class (both GMs had to cut the game short). I will let you know if I get a proper testing of this class - and any other of my material. What is more probable to happen is I will GM a campaign and use mostly all my own material. Then see how a vivika, judge, and dream lord interact. Let me know how the dream lord has worked for you when you get a chance.--24.156.121.36 20:22, 20 October 2013 (UTC)