User talk:Snafusam/Purifier (3.5e Prestige Class)

=Organizations=

Much needed cleaning/organizing was performed, some things may appear incomplete. --Snafusam (talk) 13:30, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Balance
after removing one ability entirely im now stuck with the question is it balanced (yes i realize it's massive superiority vs undead)... Snafusam (talk) May 19, 2013 09:01(PDT)


 * I can do a review if you wish so, I did not read the class yet but I can point any issues (and potential issues) as well as providing ways to fix them. --Leziad (talk) 14:34, 21 May 2013 (UTC)


 * how do you do a review? i was just about to make a pair of level 20's and have them fight each-other. Snafusam (talk) May 21, 2013 04:42(PDT)


 * Might not be the best way, i`l just look at it in an objective and critical way, compare it to similar classes and just post the result. --Leziad (talk) 05:26, 22 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Not to mention that pitting it against a True Necromancer puts it in a situation where, to me, it has an obvious advantage. But yeah, the idea of having it fight other things to see what happened was kind of abandoned with the Same Game Test. - TG Cid (talk) 17:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)


 * your right, this would have an obvious advantage... The limitations of 'hydrokinesis' are implied and stated in some places however, left vaguely open so as X-DM can limit it themselves to better fit X-campaign/player. the source which i have based this hydrokinesis never used it to 'potential' because of self-restraint which though some players have, most dont... as for "drown the whole world" I already made this impossible with rates of generation the world has countless ways of dealing with excess water without magic (rivers, lakes, oceans) adding magic into the equation makes this increasingly impossible however flooding a tunnel or water-way would be possible, if the dm doesn't create a water-drain (most tunnles do, its just another one of those little things the DM will have to think about when making his campaign or adding it in on the fly once said character gains X power.)

please give it a run-through and let me know what your thoughts are, hope it's not too much. Snafusam (talk) May 23, 2013 02:40(PDT)

Divine Metamagic
for this class, the biggest concern for me right off the bat is how extra turning attempts relate to Divine Metamagic and the cheesy things that the Cleric gets access to. - TG Cid (talk) 17:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I have taken a look at the Divine Metamagic and either 1. Don't understand it enough or 2. believe it's limited enough the double turning won't effect it enough.


 * Divine Metamagic (hereafter abbreviated as DMM) allows you to use turning attempts as metamagic levels. This allows you to add levels past level 9, provided you have enough turning attempts, and thus do all the cheesy things that clerics do (like persist divine power every day). So more turning attempts equals more metamagic abuse, which the cleric already gets plenty and does not need more of. That's at least the general gist of it, I believe. For the whole class in general, I am in favor of Prestige Classes being as short as possible. If it works effectively in five levels, there is no reason to extend it to ten, especially when in my experience most "high level" games are around level 14 or so and every level becomes precious. Having to throw more than five levels into any one PrC doesn't sit well with me. For more on this, I made a specific section below - TG Cid (talk) 00:29, 25 May 2013 (UTC)


 * just looked up this trick and it's the first I've heard of it, though i agree it is very powerful, there are many (VERY MANY) ways for a DM to counteract such things. however i agree with the worry and am currently trying to find a nice way to word a limitation. however these bonus turnings cannot be used for Divine Metamagic.?? i agree that shorter classes are easier for DM/players, do you think i should compress this class into a 5-level prestige? (do you really have an average "high level" of 14? my campaign went from level 1 to 55+ before i recently HAD to kill the entire campaign for a restart (level 3).) Snafusam (talk) May 24, 2013 19:28(PDT)

Oh no you don't. Don't even try and Oberoni this argument. A GM can shut down anything - this is no indication of whether it is balanced or not. - MisterSinister (talk) 02:16, 1 June 2013 (UTC)


 * I just had to look up "oberoni"... many (VERY MANY) ways for a DM to counteract such things are all legal without "Rule 0". Snafusam (talk) May 31, 2013 19:23(PDT)

Hydrokinesis
As for this class, Limitations on hydrokinesis would probably also be good (they seem to be implied, but not specifically stated) to prevent the purifier from drowning the whole world instantaneously (which, ironically, would not kill all the undead in the world). - TG Cid (talk) 17:18, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

flooding1
I have Mydia that I know right off the bat would never think of attempting to flood a dungeon (simply unable... not unwilling.) and Dargon that are capable wouldn't hesitate for a second to try, another Roscoe that actually wouldn't do it out of principle, unless required, and if any of said players were to try I would make my player try and reason it (for alignment purposes at least), otherwise it it flow's into the ocean/lake/river and nothing changes, flash flood maybe, but not drown the world. if they were to keep trying it >>Link<<, then Pelor might take offense and demand the incompetent fool be decapitated DOWN COMES THE ANGELS! Snafusam (talk) May 23, 2013 02:40(PDT)


 * That's a terrible way to try to justify sharing this ability with potential parties everywhere.
 * Well, assuming that they can only create one 30-ft radius sphere's-worth of water per round, that's only 0.0000001 cubic kilometers per round. Doubling the volume of the Earth's oceans would take 2,399,100,000 years.
 * Filling a dungeon, however, would take a couple of minutes unless it had a Peter Jackson LotR-style interior. If that's not using the ability as intended, I don't know what is. --Foxwarrior (talk) 16:29, 23 May 2013 (UTC)


 * keep in mind, flooding dungeons has always been an option for adventurers, it simply needs the right spells or situation this is no different.
 * keep in mind the DND oceans usually connect to the elemental plane of water (in a variety of ways) meaning that they can't really "overflow"...
 * (I don't get the Peter Jackson LotR-style reference. If its to the drain in the helms deep wall, then yes that's exactly what this means.) the method I'm wanting to use to avoid having a dungeon flooded is having a natural cavern beneath it, connected to the underdark you say? Snafusam (talk) May 23, 2013 15:06(PDT)

new edits make flooding much longer to achieve. Snafusam (talk) June 03, 2013 08:20(PDT)

Flood attempt experiment
Lets see how long it would take to flood an Water-tight dungeon with - water per 6 seconds (1 round). This would effectively force any air-breathing creature to drown (no fight experience) or be forced out of the dungeons nearest entrance (que fight) destroying any fire/water weak items(scrolls/books/important documents)

1. for my first dungeon I had my level 1 players(playing Adnd) go into a small cave which turned out to be much bigger than expected (as an inexperienced DM at the time I wound up having divine intervention save them many times) the cave was drawn out on a grid sheet and measured by 10 square feet per block, making my first dungeon cave 20x40 blocks x10 square feet. so that's 8,000 square feet.

2. an later dungeon was called the "sunder canyon" it was more or less a thin yet long canyon with many small holes in the sides which monsters made their homes, the players job was to stand in the center, draw out all the monsters and survive while the local town guard rained down arrows/spells. it's size was 400 feet across and 25000 feet long at a depth of 5000 feet. - (not including evaporation/creatures drinking or time to sleep/live so you might as well double that, and continue to laugh when they die of old age)...

3. an laberynth, this was a simple maze which took 1 sheet of grid paper giving each square 5 feet. how long did it take to flood? irrelevant, it was already set-up for water-drainage to the ocean.

so, though an adventurer could potentially flood many dungeons (if water-tight...) it doesn't kill things that don't breath and there are places (sealed/hidden doors) that won't be simply flash flooded and there are many spells (wall of fire!) which would prevent water-flooding... Snafusam (talk) May 23, 2013 19:10(PDT)

Suggestions

 * I have a suggestion for the turning. Remove turning attempts per day entirely; essentially, let them do it at will. Compared to the abuse of DMM spamming, turn undead unlimited times per day is no big deal, since the level that you really need to be to destroy things is very, very much above what most players will achieve unless the enemies are so much weaker that the PC's would crap on them anyway. It completely nullifies DMM as an option, too, which is a good thing. - TG Cid (talk) 13:00, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Moves
All sorted. No worries on the weirdness, it takes time to get this wiki stuff down. - Tarkisflux Talk 04:23, 1 June 2013 (UTC)