Talk:Grey Guardian (3.5e Class)

Talk
Under development, subject to change at any time. A more martial take on a paladin, I guess. --Jay Freedman 04:09, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

Working to up the power to Rogue Tier. --Jay Freedman 19:56, September 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * Specialist Change: can gain deflection bonus or weapon bonus.
 * Perception Change: allows for AoO's when in stance.
 * Bastion Change: can increase threatening reach when in stance.
 * Healing Change: up'd to 25%.
 * Add Hope: When using the Hope feature and Fight defensively option, you gain +2 deflection armor, +2 damage, and suffer only a -2 to attacks.  Nice.

Still trying to figure out how to pass SGT. Work in progress. --Jay Freedman 05:18, September 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * Combining is fun:
 * Ranger Spells
 * Bard's Good Hope
 * Paladin's Courage and Smite
 * Monk's saves
 * Fighters Bab and Hp
 * Barbarian's DR
 * Only missing heavy spell-casting. haha.  --Jay Freedman 06:31, September 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * I love this pic. Its rare for me to find a pic and design a class just for it.  But she deserves it.  Anyway, I've hit a creative wall with this class.  It will take me awhile to make it perfect.  Peace.  --129.123.251.236 23:56, September 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * I just noticed that a lot of the class features here require taking the total defense action. Trading a full-round action to 1) buff your friends a small amount, 2) hope that something provokes and AoO from you with your extended threat range, and 3) basically neuter your offence is probably a poor way to build a class that's supposed to be cutting things down. It might be better to build those actions around the Fight Defensively option or even Combat Expertise (granted as a bonus feat early on so you could build off of it). You need to remain a credible threat or severe annoyance (super healer comes to mind) as a 3.x defender if you don't want monsters to just give up on you and go beat on your squishier friends, and that action requirement doesn't really do help. - TarkisFlux 00:36, September 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Oh right, a total defense should be a move action. Added it to Specialist.  Thanks for catching that.  --Jay Freedman 04:30, September 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Perception Change: Now gains a readied status.


 * Wait, what? So now it's a move action, but you can't actually use half of the abilities you gain when you take a full defense action, except as a reactionary thing? And if you use your readied attack or your AoO you break your total defense? And you can't use a move action to get better positioning while also defending your party? So what do you do? Full Defensive mediocre spellcasting? Full Defensive stationary potion / wand guy? Full Defense for the buffs so you can go play a video game while still contributing to the party? I think it sorta works as a buffer who doesn't do anything else, but it's not really working as a Defender. It has to stand there and do very little to give it's bonuses, but even with those bonuses it would be easier for me to beat up his friends because they likely have a lower AC and, if the GG is covering them, are an easier way to drop the GG and his buff effects than attacking the GG directly.
 * Random thought on that note, you should probably edit Cover so that the GG doesn't take damage multiple times from the same source, like if your covered guys got fireballed or whatever. Unless you want him to fall over extra fast against AoEs.
 * Back to ranting. Total Defense is not the action of a defender, and I don't think you're going to be able to make it one. It is the action of a squishy guy who didn't invest in Tumble or movement spells and has been backed into a corner and desperately wants to buy a round or two for one of his friends to come help him. Seriously, I think you'd be better off dropping it from the writeup entirely and basing it around Fighting Defensively or Combat Expertise, those don't anti-synergize with the other class features here quite as strongly.
 * Rant over. Hope it's helpful in some way. - TarkisFlux 06:24, September 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Dear goodness man! Get a hold of yourself!  Feedback is always welcome but ranting like a mad-man is certainly not!  Sheesh.  (Don't worry people, its all under control.)  Now, thank you for commenting.  I will look into it.  --Jay Freedman 17:13, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

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 * Changes,
 * Specialist: -4 to attacks during a Total Defense.
 * Cover: only subject to area damage once.
 * Perception: readied against any enemy movement within reach.

Ok, so this puppy pretty much turned into a zone controller. Switch on TD and you own the ground you walk on. This should make it hard for any baddies to just ignore you and walk away. You can pretty much just camp the enemy too. --Jay Freedman September 16+, 2009


 * Time for playtesting. This class is close to complete it just requires time on the grid to work out any tweaks.  I'm labeling it complete for players to use.  Any noticable changes that should be made, stuff that comes up during play, will be fixed later.  Laterz Haterz.  Peace.  --Jay Freedman 04:00, September 30, 2009 (UTC)

Spellcasting
Just curious, why did you go with the Ranger spell list instead of the Paladin spell list for your martial take on the paladin? The later seems like it would have more that would assist the character on the melee lines. Also, if you wanted to boost melee casting without actually boosting spells you could allow the class to swift cast any personal or touch range spell that was targeting yourself. It lets you do combat heals more easily on yourself, do combat buffs in the thick of things, last second protections, that sort of thing. - TarkisFlux 00:18, September 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * The spells where an after-thought. Something to use out of combat.  Of course, they have combat use too.  But, I didn't want to cramp a Paladin's style if they where in a party together.  The Ranger's spells are more neutral aligned too.  A Paladin's spells are all Goody-goody and that would be annoying for any evil characters.  --Jay Freedman 04:35, September 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * True enough, though most of them can just be reversed if that's the only issue. I think you may just want to write a custom spell list though, or alter your stated goal of making a more martial paladin (who would sorta step on the toes of an actual paladin by definition), because the ranger list feels tacked on rather than an integral, thought out part of the class. It's not a big deal right now though. - TarkisFlux 06:30, September 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Understood. I will look into it.  --Jay Freedman 17:14, September 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Made a spell list. Dropped the Ranger stuff.  Should work well.  --Jay Freedman 02:01, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Those look much better. Slow feels better than entangle or spike growth, and align weapon is a welcome addition. Greater Magic Weapon might also be helpful and not out of place. I'd consider dropping Freedom of Movement to a 3rd level spell on the list (still gained after the full casters so it's not a big deal) so that they can more easily get in the way of people trying to take advantage of effects that slow or block the party. - TarkisFlux 18:50, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Good idea on Freedom. I'll skip magic weapon.  --Jay Freedman 00:38, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

SGT'd
I'm glad the comments have been helpful :-). Let's SGT what you've got and see how it stacks up.


 * A hallway filled with magical runes.
 * Doesn't have detect magic or any way to deal with the runes direectly (dispel, disable, etc.). Can summon some minor creatures to sacrifice, and make a dent in it, and can try to run the rest with your saves and healing surge... but that's pretty chancy.
 * - Likely loss


 * A Fire Giant.
 * - It has more hp, more attacks, better attacks, reach, and does more damage (though only slightly more if you can smite it). None of your defensive abilities help you defeat it, so your best bet is to trade full attacks with it, use your healing surge, and hope for the best... It doesn't look good for you in melee. You can maybe entangle it or slow it with spike growth, and plink at it with a bow, forcing it to chuck rocks at you instead. Damage is still similar, but he's worse at hitting you now and has fewer attacks. Defensive abilities don't add much because you're keeping him at range, but you have a much better chance this way.
 * - Toss up if you can keep him at range, likely loss otherwise.


 * A Young Blue Dragon.
 * - You could probably take it toe-to-toe if you can smite it, but since you have no means of keeping him on the ground and engaged with you the dragon just kites you with it's breath weapon. Your saves are fairly good (especially if you didn't dump dex), but they don't keep you up forever. Your ability to heal up while it's away recharging is more helpful than any other ability you have here, and if you brought a decent bow you have a chance.
 * - Toss up


 * A Bebilith.
 * - If you took spot and see it, you might be able to keep it at range (same tricks as the Fire Giant) long enough to wear it down before smiting it to end things. Since it has no ranged abilities, this is your best chance. If you don't see it, or you can't slow it down, it swallows you and you die.
 * - Toss up


 * A Vrock.
 * - Between it's at will mirror image, DR, high DC stun, solid attack routine, and free action ongoing spores, he likely wipes the floor with you. You can attempt to turtle up, trading a full attack action for an extra standard attack if he moves, but it doesn't improve your odds much as it doesn't stop him from retreating (since you can't AoO, and after he leaves your threat range your 'readied for additional movement' ability is moot) to do other nasty things.
 * - Likely loss


 * A tag team of Mind Flayers.
 * - You probably save against any ability they throw at you, and they have to get adjacent to you to eat your brains. You defend and cut them down as they approach, they don't have the hp to take more than a couple of hits. You're potentially hosed if you fail a save though.
 * - Likely win


 * An Evil Necromancer.
 * - He has ranged SODs and you don't. He doesn't care about your hp or your AC. Your saves help, and you can cut through any minions he sends at you, but you can't deal with him before he's dealt with you.
 * - Sure loss.


 * 6 Trolls.
 * - Their AC is low, their attacks aren't great, but they have reach and regeneration. You can defend and try to catch them on move, shifting yourself as appropriate, but they can probably just ring you and pick you off, limiting your attacks without limiting themselves. If they were stronger, you'd be doomed, but as it is...
 * - Likely loss.


 * A horde of Shadows.
 * - You turtle up and drop them when they try to attack you from the walls with your infinite readied actions against movement. If you can smite them it goes even faster. They have almost no chance of hitting you. You have a magic sword from your crafting ability, and aren't especially put out by their incorporeal-ness.
 * - Sure win.

Totals: Sure Win - 1 / Likely Win - 1 / Toss Up - 2.5 / Likely Loss - 3.5 / Sure Loss - 1

Which doesn't look too bad, but isn't quite there yet. It does much better against groups lesser of creatures than against individuals, but really suffers from the lack of reach that the opponents often have. I think dropping the "10' reach while defending" to level 8 or so would be helpful, as it would allow you to get the drop on the melee monsters in this CR range. Sprucing up the spell list might help in other places. Other SGTs later if I'm feeling up to it. - TarkisFlux 22:06, September 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Gold Star Award: For over-acheivement in feedback. --Jay Freedman 23:17, September 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * In response: Its very easy to see I need to make a unique spell-list. Not for the SGT but for this class in general.  Something that synergizes with the classes role.  The only thing that really surprised me was the Bebilith Encounter.  I mean, can this class really not spot it?  I guess that all depends on skill, don't it.


 * No worries Jay. I find it much easier to critique classes than to actually write them, so I wind up doing more of that. The Bebilith has +16 hide (because of natural bonuses that cancel out it's size penalty) and a climb speed, so if you didn't take spot as a class skill (13 ranks at this level) and boost it like mad you probably don't see it hanging out above you. If you didn't take spot at all with your few skill points, you almost certainly don't see it. Anyway, it gets a surprise drop on you, makes you cry with it's DC 24 con poison (yay, harder to save against the next time :-, improved grapples you, rips your armor off with that stupid rend ability, and eats you. It probably nets you if you survive the surprise round and try to escape. They are nasty, nasty buggers in an ambush. Though, I did say above that it swallows you and you die, and I think after writing this that it actually happens in reverse order... boo being wrong slightly :-( - TarkisFlux 23:33, September 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * So, with the change to presence, is your range extended all of the time, or just while holding a total defense? Same question for the immune to flanking ability, and does it behave like Imp Uncanny Dodge (without the regular Uncanny Dodge bits) in that he can still be SAed by someone 4 levels higher? - TarkisFlux 18:40, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Range always, no +2 when flanked. Still sneak attack-able.  --Jay Freedman 00:36, September 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * Update - Spells help you pick your battles in the hallway, but it's still a likely loss because all you've got to deal with it are saves and some limited heals. Between your increased reach and revised spells you can likely take the Fire Giant (assuming you can slow him, so full toss up now) and the Vrock (align weapon + reach = probably dead before you) now. The rest is generally unchanged, but that's enough to bring you to...


 * Totals: Sure Win - 1 / Likely Win - 2 / Toss Up - 3 / Likely Loss - 2 / Sure Loss - 1. Which is pretty solid for an interdicting defender class I'd say.


 * So, SGT met, on to nitpicks. Bastion still has a 5' reach increase, is that intentional? Can you explain the intent behind Combat Specialty to me, cause I can't see what it's supposed to be doing and don't know if it's meeting it. Lastly, this is intended to be a melee class, but it's written in a way (readied action against movement) that leaves open a bow user. Who would then shoot anyone who moved at all on the battlefield, ending their movement, and keeping them held down forever. Which is nice, in that it allows them to deal with fliers and kiters, but it's a bit open ended and probably more than you wanted. I ignored it in the SGT (though I was probably too generous with the dragon anyway) because I don't know which way you want it to go. You could probably limit smite to melee weapons and put a cap on readied attacks and fix it without eliminating the option, but I don't know if you want that or not. - TarkisFlux 05:14, September 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * Updates. --Jay Freedman 20:17, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * Bastion: readied against movement withing 10 feet. Increase in reach was intentional should you not have a reach weapon handy. This will hinder the archers.  I'm not capping the readied attacks either.  If I did, they would have to be Dex based, and I don't like that idea.
 * Smite: stays the same. I like the damage with a bow.
 * Speciality: Offense changed to reach weapons. Defense still armor bonus.

Version 2.0
Introducing some new elements. Should have done this awhile ago. --Jay Freedman 20:35, September 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * Taunt: Useful for any melee defender.
 * Guardian Stance: A mix of all the defensive ideas I had in mind. Totally ignores total defense and fighting defensively.  Still uses movement attacks but can no longer stop a moving opponent.


 * Me likey Taunt. Reminds me of Mindless Rage from SC. You should probably specify that they will spend all of their actions attempting to hurt or actually hurting you in melee, since that's where you shine with your stance and it would be lame to taunt a wizard who then disintegrates you from across the map for your troubles. I wouldn't mind an increased duration on it so you could use it for more than 1 round control, and a caveat that you can only use it against someone once per day regardless of save should keep it out of abuse land even with a decent duration.
 * Guardian stance is much cleaner, and lets you hit people several times on their way towards or past you now. I kinda miss the lockdown component, but since you have reach and can AoO them and follow with a readied strike when try to leave your first threatened square it's probably not a big deal. - TarkisFlux 22:48, September 30, 2009 (UTC)