Talk:Kisalli (3.5e Race)

The Problems of Tiny
You would be better off being Small with Slight Build, like Kobolds. It captures what it looks like you're going for, and is far less clunky and troublesome for PCs. The rest I only glanced at, I'll give it a full look-over later. -- Eiji-kun 03:48, 12 April 2011 (UTC)


 * What are some feats that reduce a character's size? --Franken Kesey (talk) 16:28, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Comments
Check out the Mousa (3.5e Race), they are:

1)Tiny 2)+4 attribute gain 3)-4 attribute loss 4) Mousa gain 1) Dream, 2) Nightmare and 3) Guidance as at will abilities at first level; and 4) Charm Person, 5) Detect Thought, 6) Heroism and 7) Lesser Geas are learned at later levels. 5)Mousa have one LA
 * kisalli are small with slight build
 * +2 attribute gain
 * -4 attribute loss
 * The kisalli gain only 1) know direction and location, 2) sensitivity to psychic impressions, 3) telempathic projection, all of which are 3/day abilities.
 * Kisalli have one LA

I am confused as to why the consensus is that this race is the most abusable, to a point of being broken. --Franken Kesey 19:42, 17 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Another race to check out: (Eijilund Plushie (3.5e Race))
 * 1)Plushie are small with slight build
 * small with slight build
 * 2)+4 attribute gain
 * +2 attribute gain
 * 3)-8 attribute loss
 * -4 attribute loss
 * 4)Light Fortification
 * no defensive bonuses
 * 5)immune to fire damage
 * no defensive bonuses
 * 5)can add ranking fire damage to attacks
 * no attack modifiers
 * 6)ECL of 1
 * ECL of 1


 * There are no races in the SRD with a similar size that we may compare. Yet here are two races with fewer restrictions that are far more powerful. --Franken Kesey (talk) 18:41, 29 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Just because no one commented on them doesn't mean they don't have the same issues. In the case of the plushie, however, it gets screwed to the wall by all of its weaknesses to dispel magic and the like; I don't think that necessarily excuses it since giving a weakness to such a commonly used spell seems dreadfully limiting IMO, but it still is a weakness to make up for the fact that it is kinda boss. I'm not saying you should write such things in, since I don't approve of LA on those races either, but that doesn't change the fact that it existing on this race is something I don't approve of.


 * It's also erroneous for even the Moussa description to say those SLA's can be used at will initially; it can only use it while asleep, and once per target, until level 9, at which point I don't really think anyone cares about your racial traits unless they're still as good as they were initially. Which, in the case of things like dream and nightmare, is not the case. - TG Cid (talk) 04:25, 1 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I didn't know you had issue with Plushies Cid. Huh.


 * Well since these are both my races, let me handle the critique. The Mousa was a (IMO successful) experiment at a tiny race.  The reason tiny doesn't work for PCs is all in the reach... they have none.  This basically nerfs them from being anything but spellcasters.  However, Mousa have this: Extended Reach (Ex): The mousa's body is flexible, allowing it to whip it's limbs out longer than they appear. The mousa has a 5 ft. reach in spite of being tiny. which solves that.  Mind you, that means its size has gone from pidgeonholing to pure buff, but this is one of the main draws of the race, being tiny as all get out.


 * I'm not seeing where you see a +4 gain in ability scores. It's Str -2, +2 Dex, -2 Wis, +2 Cha.  That's a gain of 0.  Your race has a gain of -2 total.  ...ah, I see what you did, you separated gain and loss for... some reason.  Not sure why.  Anyway, gain if 0 is normal and gain of -2 is usually on races which make up for it elsewhere (warforged, elans).


 * As Cid said, the SLAs aren't quite at will, and they aren't of any good spells. Though high level, neither dream nor nightmare really deserve the spot.  So giving it to them under limited circumstances, and then more often later, seems perfectly acceptable.  If you wish to debate the merits and follies of those spells, feel free, but I stand by that they are not worth their slots.


 * Oh, and of course, Mousa are LA 1, for what its worth. Mostly due to Tiny size and its (scaling) SLAs it gains.


 * As for plushies, fun fact there. The dispel weakness, while potent, was put there more for being consistent with their fluff (fluff, get it, ha ha!) which happened to also be a very effective nerfbat.  I knew from the beginning that by making plushies living constructs they were already going to be on the high end of LA 0, as warforged are, so my goal was to match or be weaker than a warforged.  To that end, I have some of their standard boilerplate (immunities, fortification), and a -4 total gain in ability scores, making them slightly worse than warforged there since their strength is trashed.  However, as small with slight build creatures they are pidgeonholed a bit into small-friendly classes.


 * Fire subtype is a mixed bag. Though I find it to be overall a benefit, it's a benefit and a boon; cold vulnerability hurts.  At low level, before Cones of Cold show up to ruin the day, this should be a benefit but they soon loose it until they cover their glaring weakness.  For this end I consider the Fire and Cold subtypes to be slight benefits rather than the large benefit of outright immunity.


 * Go Boom is a simple and poorly scaling power of no value. It is a cantrip, a 4e's wizard's magic missile, a PF sorcerer's energy ray... it's a thing to ping at creatures and really only serves as a good weapon at 1st level, unless you build around explosions.  (Note to self, finish that class about building around explosions).  Bouncy is also a situational non-power.


 * All in all these are small slight built warforged with worse physical stats, explosions instead of slams, the benefit of fire type but the loss in Magical Lifeforce and Soggy When Wet. I'll leave it up to debate it I succeeded, but I've been told that plushies are actually a fun if suboptimal choice.  With that in mind, I seem to have come under the wire with my goal of "as or weaker than warforged".


 * Oh, no particular comments on your race right now, just explaining myself. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 04:46, 1 October 2012 (UTC)


 * It only would have come up when I talked about any revisions I would have made for the planned one I was going to do. It also isn't a universally applicable complaint, since only the world MS and I live in has greater dispel magic at level 1 and is thus capable of screwing over plushies everywhere. More generally, I just am not sure gimping a race with an ability like that is worth giving it all these other things, when I would prefer a race with less buffing and less gimping for a less extreme but more reliable final product. Given the situational nature of the complaint, however, I didn't find it worth leaving a comment on the page. - TG Cid (talk) 04:55, 1 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Fair nuff. If you ever think it needs denerfering but should retain the flavor, might I recommend a lesser penalty as a result of magical doom?  Sickening, or the like, bypassing usual immunity. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 04:58, 1 October 2012 (UTC)