Talk:This is Your Brain on Magic (3.5e Maneuver)

So, this is a very high balance skill, available at a minimum level of 17, which requires that you move into melee range of an enemy, take a standard action, succeed on an attack roll, cause an enemy to fail a save, and then they might be permanently harmed- if they don't have contingencies, greater restoration, or electric immunity.Fluffykittens (talk) 06:04, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep. What's so great about contingency, anyhow? It can't be paired with a spell of greater than 6th level. And wizards, sorcerers, clerics, druids, and bards all tend to be rather bad at Fortitude saves (in fact, I picked Fortitude instead of Will for precisely that reason). --Luigifan18 (talk) 06:15, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I think Fluffykittens's point is that this isn't significantly better than phantasmal killer. --Foxwarrior (talk) 06:19, 8 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Not sure that greater restoration is really appropriate here. It's a spell 2 levels lower than this maneuver, and something that you could expect would be on hand to counter it pretty quickly. Same with electric immunity, though that's a bit more niche. You could probably drop them both if you wanted to keep it a VH maneuver.


 * That said, Eiji is more of a regular H guy. The only other maneuver in the discipline with a listed BP (bad Eiji) is H, so toning this down a bit to fit might be a good plan. If you wanted to go that way, it might work to remove the permanent aspect of it and go with a less than absolute prohibition. Something like a flat spell failure chance for X rounds instead, maybe 75% for 1 minute or something, with none of the recover spells available as quick fixes. - Tarkisflux Talk 06:26, 8 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Still looking over the maneuver so no comment yet, the others have mostly brought up my concerns. That said, definitely aim for H.  Not just personal preference, but Complete Sublime preference.  I'm thinking drop level, make non-permanent.  Something that can be cured in battle but probably won't.  That would make this into a potent save or lose.  Alternatively Tarkis' idea of spell failure chance.  75% fail is just as much discouragement as 100%.


 * I'm missing balance levels Tark? I'll need to look them over later.  Must be an old preload. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 06:32, 8 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The first two spells in the discipline, unless my eyes were stolen by toast and I was temporarily blind and thus missed them. It's possible you know... - Tarkisflux Talk 06:48, 8 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The point here is that it is a level 17 effect that requires you to get into melee with a caster (bypassing any guards, traps, body doubles and illusions he's laid down, and hoping he doesn't contingent teleport away), take a standard action (so your probably not going to get any other attacks in on this turn), succeed on a melee attack against some of the highest- ac classes (cleric, wizard, druid, sorcerer), bypass any miss chance from stuff like displacement and greater blink, get them to fail on a save (clerics, wizards, and druids are great at buffing their saves into the stratosphere), and even then you've only accomplished something if they don't get a greater restoration effect within the next turn (a very common spell many characters may have ready in some form or another at that level to deal with status effects) and they don't have electric immunity (which is not common, but not uncommon either). At least you can use phantasmal killer at range.Fluffykittens (talk) 07:00, 8 November 2012 (UTC)


 * At the time that I'm writing this, this ability is still completely stopped by an object in the way, total cover, shooting at the wrong target (such as illusions or body doubles), out of turn effects that grant teleportation or remove line of effect (such as using contingencies and greater celerity to cast out of turn), missing (against classes that can stack multiple AC bonuses, displacement, greater blink, and greater mirror image), and electric immunity (not common, but not uncommon either). All of these abilities can be gained in some form or another a long time before level 17.Fluffykittens (talk) 01:20, 9 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I kinda want this to potentially be the discipline's ultimate maneuver, but I really don't know how to make it any stronger than it already is without violating its flavor - it's meant to ruin the target's spellcasting capabilities by using an electrical surge to shut down that aspect of its brain (there's only 48 pages with the electricity descriptor at the time I'm writing this, including SRD and OGL stuff, so I think electricity needs a lot more love). And as a martial maneuver, it needs to involve using a weapon in some way. I already gave it a huge buff by letting it be used as a ranged attack and making it take some spellcasting capacity away on a successful save - what else am I supposed to do?!? I don't want to make this overpowered! --Luigifan18 (talk) 01:43, 9 November 2012 (UTC)


 * A single, 17th level attack that may or may not disable an enemy and can't be used at will is more monk-level (see: quivering palm).Fluffykittens (talk) 02:07, 9 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, concerns addressed. (I might have made it too hardcore.) --Luigifan18 (talk) 03:07, 9 November 2012 (UTC)


 * It's a little better now, but it's turning into one of those "i counter your counter of my counter of your counter of my counter of your counter..." abilities. This might be better as a boost, that doesn't require an attack roll and isn't an attack, and simply forces them to save or lose all ability to use spells, SLA, SUs, etc. for 1 round/level (sort of like antimagic ward, but only inhibits their ability to use magic, and doesn't stop magic from being used on them.)Fluffykittens (talk) 03:54, 9 November 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you mean by that. Counter of counter of counter of counter? I basically tweaked it to (partially) override the most common defenses of the typical spellcaster (I'm not sure, but I think total cover still thwarts it - then again, total cover thwarts damn near everything). And anti-resistance is a completely separate ability. --Luigifan18 (talk) 16:44, 9 November 2012 (UTC)


 * The thing is, it still requires an attack roll. This means that you'll have to overcome greater mirror image, which decreases your chances of hitting by anywhere from 1/2 to 7/8; on top of that, this can be stacked with displacement and greater blink to cut someones chances of hitting by 1/2 each. Your chances of even getting to make an attack roll on such a character range from 12.5% to little over 3%. If an enemy teleports away, even if you've drained their spell slots, they can still rest up and then launch a scry and die assault. You've still got, as a capstone ability, an attack that may or may not cripple an enemy enough to stop them from killing you the very next round.Fluffykittens (talk) 18:12, 9 November 2012 (UTC)


 * At High balance, where this sits post change, this is likely a much smaller problem than you are making it out to be Fluffy. That sort of defense stacking shouldn't happen. And "must connect with an attack roll" is a standard limitation in a lot of ToB and derivative stuff. So while it might be problematic, it's not a problem that needs to be solved here. It does suggest a lower level stance in the discipline where you get to ignore illusion based defenses like mirror image and displacement though, which seems like it would be a welcome addition. - Tarkisflux Talk 18:42, 9 November 2012 (UTC)


 * You took the words right out of my mouth, Tarkis. Beating illusions isn't really in a strike's job description. A stance or boost, on the other hand... --Luigifan18 (talk) 18:48, 9 November 2012 (UTC)