Talk:Infinite Lotus (3.5e Martial Discipline)

Gaining Maneuvers
This discipline doesn't seem like it will be gaining a true focus, and instead feels like a hosh-posh of abilities based on flavor. Oh wait, it is. As such, I'm thinking we should do one of two things to it:


 * 1) Make it so that no class may increase its initiator level, and you have to use a feat to gain maneuvers.  We can make this choice at this time because no maneuver is higher than level 5 (which is the cut-off point for being able to do this.)
 * 2) Make it so that if you have a class that increases initiator level in any martial discipline available to the character, it also increases the initiator level for the Infinte Lotus discipline.  Still block classes from giving maneuvers, except for a prestige class that gives access to 3 or 5 (over 5 levels).

Axiom of Choice/Determinacy
I wish there to be two stances based on these optional set theory axioms. Specifically, I want Axiom of Choice for chaotic characters and the Axiom of Determinacy for lawful characters. Neutral characters may choose to take either. Not sure what effect would work for these though. --Havvy 07:23, 12 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The Axiom of Choice should resemble something like Shadow Blade Technique, except on multiple actions - in that you roll for it twice, and then pick the one you prefer, with possibly some added benefit for going with the first roll over the second one. It also needs to be more of a difficult choice than SBT is now, and probably apply to something broader than an attack roll - as you know, I always prefer that.


 * The Axiom of Determinacy is a bit trickier, as it implies that a perfect strategy wins no matter what, given a finite set of outcomes. While this has obvious applications, it is a very powerful stance as a result, and since we want these to level-match, it would be best if it were limited to a certain class of actions. The key point is that success will happen, but not immediately. Will think on this some more. - MisterSinister 21:07, 12 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Taking 10, taking 15, ect. ect.  Removing an attack at your lowest BAB to get an assured hit at your highest during a full round attack.  (Just ideas)  --Havvy 23:10, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Initial Rough Notes
This is a mathematical discipline, thought up in the IRC channel. Currently just an idea, but we spent 30 minutes discussing it. As such, this page is put up as an incentive to do this.

Proposed maneuver weapons:


 * Xena's disc, a sword that's a line.
 * Triangularly shaped daggers
 * The Mobious Whip and the Klein Sword
 * The Dodecahedron of Doom
 * Slide Ruler
 * The Graph Bow

It has been decided that Autohypnosis would be the maneuver skill, though Knowledge (nature, mathematics, engineering) and Appraise were also brought up.

IRC Log about discipline
06:00:45:  What, a ToB school based on crazy maths? 06:00:48:  I could totally dig that. 06:01:00:  Basically, the way you train is you meditate on unusual mathematical concepts. 06:01:03:  Yeah, well, I could totaly digit that. 06:01:06:  And your katas are based on geometric forms. 06:01:33:  In FF12, there are weapons that are mathematical tools. 06:02:01:  They don't do much damage, but they bypass defenses, and usually inflict some sort of status (beneficial or harmful) 06:02:13:  Nothing like hitting your teammate for regen. 06:02:24:  Lol. Negative Number Strike. 06:02:28:  Hit people for healing. 06:03:00:  Nah, I'd do like 150 damage, and then over 20 seconds, the teammate would heal that back, plus more from regen continuing. 06:03:35:  But honestly, a ToB school based on really unusual mathematical stuff would be pretty awesome. 06:04:53:  Not really obscure but a strike which deals damage following the fibonacci series 06:05:00:  over turns 06:05:25:  although to be relevant you'd need to start at like 8 06:05:26:  There are nine tiers of maneuvers...so let us make it so that each tier ties to a specific level of understanding. 06:05:41: <EntropicHavvy> Alex4: You'd have to start with the highest amount of damage I think. 06:05:42: <MisterSinister> Yeah. Start tier 1 with something like basic arithmetic. 06:05:51: <EntropicHavvy> Tier 2 can be geometry. 06:05:52: <MisterSinister> Finish with something really mind-breaking. 06:06:28: <EntropicHavvy> Tier 9 can be Grover's Algorithm. 06:07:06: <MisterSinister> Or stuff of similar madness. 06:07:25: <MisterSinister> Where would stuff relating to real analysis and set theory go? 06:07:37: <MisterSinister> And algebraic stuff? 06:08:01: <MisterSinister> We might want logic in there too - especially second-order logic. 06:08:21: <Alex4> Have a strike for different degrees 06:08:30: <EntropicHavvy> Algebra is tier 1; Geometry tier 2; Trig tier 3; Real analysis (calculus?) tier 4; set theory tier 5; mathematical logic tier 6? 06:08:32: <Alex4> I.E. : linear, quadratic, etc. 06:08:51: <EntropicHavvy> Karrius: We are discussing a mathematical ToB Discipline. 06:08:55: <Alex4> all the way to nithic 06:09:03: <Alex4> Wait 06:09:14: <Alex4> What do you call an equation that has x to the ninth 06:09:25: <MisterSinister> We also need to shove really advanced number theory in there somewhere. 06:09:32: <MisterSinister> Alex4: A fucking headache. 06:09:44: <Karrius> You guys are fucking weird 06:09:59: <Karrius> So who wants to be in a Maid: RPG one-shot? 06:10:11: <MisterSinister> Karrius: It wasn't immediately apparent? And no thanks, I'll pass. 06:10:12: <EntropicHavvy> Actually, I'm thinking of combining Algebra and Geometry into one tier actually. 06:10:17: <Alex4> nonic 06:10:24: <MisterSinister> Probably, although it depends what kind of geometry we're talking. 06:10:38: <MisterSinister> Are we talking Pythagoras or modular forms? 06:10:38: <EntropicHavvy> Highschool of course. 06:10:41: Alex4 still thinks we should have Linear Equation strike-Nonic equation strike. 06:10:55: <EntropicHavvy> So Euclidean Geometry. 06:11:01: <MisterSinister> Yeah, sure, that works for me. 06:11:09: <Alex4> Level 9: Strike of Non-Euclidean Geometry 06:11:13: <MisterSinister> Euclidean Geometry being in the same tier as basic algebra is OK. 06:11:18: <Alex4> Effect: Fuck up the world. 06:11:20: <MisterSinister> Alex4: Which non-Euclidean? 06:11:27: <Alex4> Your choice. 06:11:29: <MisterSinister> The world is actually non-Euclidean by nature. 06:11:44: <EntropicHavvy> DnD is very Euclidean. 06:11:44: <MisterSinister> CF: Our planet. 06:12:06: <Alex4> DnD follows euclidean geometry 06:12:23: <Alex4> What happens if 5-foot squares suddenly get screwed up? 06:12:37: <MisterSinister> Alex4: Magic happens. :D :P 06:12:48: <EntropicHavvy> MisterSinister: Even magic doesn't mess that up. 06:13:02: <MisterSinister> Also, Havvy: What should this hypothetical discipline's discipline skill be? 06:13:13: <MisterSinister> And discipline weapons, actually. 06:13:26: <Undead_Knave> One of the low levels could be statistics. 06:13:31: <EntropicHavvy> The discipline weapons should be homebrew. 06:13:39: <EntropicHavvy> Undead_Knave: That would go on the same tier as Calculus. 06:13:42: <Alex4> Discipline weapon should be something like Xena's disc, a sword that's a line. 06:13:56: <Undead_Knave> It could have the Stance of the Dungeon and the Strike of the Dragon. 06:13:57: <Alex4> Triangularly shaped daggers 06:14:13: <EntropicHavvy> Undead_Knave: That sounds more like a meta-discipline. :P 06:14:24: <Undead_Knave> Because recursion is fun. 06:14:46: <MisterSinister> What about the discipline skill? My first thought is Appraise. 06:14:49: <EntropicHavvy> Undead_Knave: If we design a meta-discipline, than sure, those can be added. 06:14:57: <MisterSinister> Since it seems that's the closest. 06:14:59: <EntropicHavvy> MisterSinister: My first thought was Autohypnosis. 06:15:04: <Alex4> How about knowledge: mathematics? 06:15:12: <EntropicHavvy> My second was Knowledge (Arcana/Mathematics) 06:15:13: <MisterSinister> Havvy: You win hands down. Alex4: That's not a real skill. 06:15:22: <MisterSinister> Havvy: Autohypnosis is MUCH better. 06:15:32: <Alex4> how does autohypnosis relate to math? 06:15:44: <MisterSinister> Since one of its aspects is that they learn to meditate and internalise very unusual mental processes related to their maths principles. 06:15:53: <Alex4> Knowledge (Engineering and Architecture) 06:16:03: <Alex4> I see 06:16:15: <EntropicHavvy> I'd like to avoid Knowledge skills for disciplines in any case. 06:16:20: <MisterSinister> Likewise. 06:16:32: <Alex4> Allright 06:16:35: <Alex4> So autohypnosis 06:16:46: <MisterSinister> Wis-based... trust swordsages to be best at it. :P 06:16:47: <EntropicHavvy> Knowlege Nature would be better than Arcana on second though. ;) 06:16:52: <Alex4> Now someone stat up Xena's disc, triangular daggers, and a square sword. 06:17:11: <MisterSinister> No Mobius strip-shaped weapon? 06:17:12: <EntropicHavvy> Alex4: I vote you, since I have no clue how those function. 06:17:29: <Alex4> How the fuck would that work MS? 06:17:30: <Alex4> :P 06:17:37: <EntropicHavvy> MisterSinister: The Mobious Whip and the Klein Sword 06:17:45: <Alex4> Mobius strips have 2 sides! 06:17:49: <MisterSinister> The Klein Sword being based on what? 06:17:54: <Alex4> Actually 3. 06:18:00: <EntropicHavvy> Alex4: 1 side actually. 06:18:24: <EntropicHavvy> MisterSinister: Klein bottles are the 3d versions of mobious strips. 06:18:24: <Alex4> Well, it'd be impossible to actually create a mobius strip 1with one side 06:18:32: <Alex4> Theoretically, it's supposed to. 06:18:33: <MisterSinister> Oh, yeah, that one. 06:18:46: <Alex4> But even if you do it with atoms, they'll still have 3 sides. 06:18:59: <Alex4> No matter how thin. 06:19:07: <Undead_Knave> "Xena's disc" is a chakrum. 06:19:11: <MisterSinister> Alex4: Creating a truly 2D or 1D object in 3D space is not actually possible. 06:19:18: <EntropicHavvy> Klein swords would affect the ethreal realm. 06:19:20: <MisterSinister> UK: I believe the spelling is 'chakram'. 06:19:21: <Alex4> exactly 06:19:24: <MisterSinister> Havvy: Yes. 06:19:28: <MisterSinister> We need one more. 06:19:38: <MisterSinister> Is there another really weird geometrical shape we could use? 06:19:40: <Undead_Knave> MS: So it is. 06:19:47: <Undead_Knave> I stand corrected. 06:19:53: Alex4 would use triangles 06:20:02: <Undead_Knave> The dodecahedron of doom? 06:20:06: <EntropicHavvy> :Þ@Sphere of Annihilation. 06:20:16: <Undead_Knave> The Dodecahedron of Doom* 06:20:29: <EntropicHavvy> The perfectly sharp sphere. :P 06:21:00: <MisterSinister> The only remaining thing we could use that I know would be the hypercube. 06:21:04: <MisterSinister> But... yeah... no. 06:21:15: <MisterSinister> Weapons bigger on the inside than on the outside pose... curious problems. 06:21:19: <EntropicHavvy> Too Google! 06:21:24: <EntropicHavvy> *To 06:21:36: <EntropicHavvy> Wait, I got it! Slide Ruler 06:21:48: <EntropicHavvy> A very fancy club. 06:21:51: <MisterSinister> Lol. 06:21:55: <MisterSinister> It's what you start with. 06:22:02: <MisterSinister> To indicate your need to master integers. 06:22:18: <Undead_Knave> The Graph Bow? 06:22:36: <MisterSinister> The Parabola Bow, rather. 06:22:58: <Undead_Knave> No, it's the graph. 06:23:06: <Alex4> hypercubes hurt my brain 06:23:19: <Undead_Knave> Just because it has a parabola *on* it, doesn;t mean that that's the important part. 06:23:20: <EntropicHavvy> Hypercube can be saved for a maneuver. 06:23:24: <Alex4> Absolute value dagger. 06:23:38: <Undead_Knave> The important part is mocking that it's just a normal crossbow. 06:23:58: <Undead_Knave> Alex4: It always deal 2.5+bonus damage? 06:24:02: <Undead_Knave> deals* 06:24:12: <Alex4> Maybe 06:24:15: <EntropicHavvy> Alex4: Think we can turn 'absolute value' into a weapon enhancement? 06:24:24: <Alex4> How though? 06:24:30: <MisterSinister> This is sounding less like a discipline and more like a sourcebook. 06:24:33: <Alex4> Switch between healing and damaging? 06:24:36: <MisterSinister> The Other Tome of Maths. 06:24:37: <EntropicHavvy> Hmm, maybe a weapon crystal even. :P 06:24:46: <MisterSinister> A weapon crystal is best of all. 06:25:12: <EntropicHavvy> Alright, I'm making the slide ruler a weapon. 06:25:14: <Alex4> Absolute Value: Whenever rolling for damage, you may decide whether to subtract the rolled value from your targets hit points, or add it as temporary hitpoints. 06:25:31: <Alex4> +1(+2) bonus? 06:25:36: <MisterSinister> EntropicHavvy: If someone's willing to maintain a sourcebook for this, I would love to contribute. 06:25:45: <Alex4> I honestly don't really care if it's infinite healing. 06:25:45: <EntropicHavvy> I don't think a sourcebook is needed. 06:26:08: <MisterSinister> Discipline + discipline weapons only? 06:26:18: <EntropicHavvy> I'd make Absolute Value do something special on critical hits; 06:26:22: <EntropicHavvy> MisterSinister: For now. 06:26:29: <MisterSinister> Havvy: Fair enough. 06:26:42: <MisterSinister> I'll take on writing up the discipline, but I'll need a LOT of help. 06:26:52: <MisterSinister> Given that I'm not really much of a maths guy. 06:26:54: <Alex4> Absolute Value: Whenever rolling for damage, you may decide whether to subtract the rolled value from your targets hit points, or add it as temporary hitpoints. Additionally, every turn after the hit, you deal or heal 1/2 damage. 06:27:10: <MisterSinister> Alex4: That needs to stop eventually. 06:27:10: <Alex4> It should be -1 damage every turn 06:27:13: <Alex4> But that would be wrong 06:27:16: <Alex4> Round down 06:27:28: <Alex4> So once it gets to 1 it stops. 06:27:41: <MisterSinister> I'd recommend limiting it to light weapons. 06:27:52: <Alex4> Why? 06:28:12: <EntropicHavvy> How about it can grant FH1 or 1 Wounding damage, non-stackable? 06:28:27: <Alex4> or it could be stackable? 06:28:37: <EntropicHavvy> FH1 stackable = FH(1/0) 06:28:39: <Alex4> Is that so bad? 06:28:53: <Undead_Knave> Yes. 06:28:55: <Alex4> It honestly takes forever to get it going 06:29:02: <Alex4> And won't actually be used in combat. 06:29:22: <EntropicHavvy> 600 rounds/hour 06:29:25: <Alex4> Or how about stackable to a max of character level? 06:29:39: <Alex4> or 1/2 character level? 06:29:53: <EntropicHavvy> o.0 Wounds or FH equal to [CL] would be interesting. 06:29:54: <Alex4> I mean, 1 would be pitiful for +2 06:30:20: <Undead_Knave> I think it might need to be a little more complex than that. 06:30:31: <Undead_Knave> Perhaps 5/9HD? 06:30:53: <MisterSinister> UK: Do you LIKE having a calculator at the gaming table? :P 06:30:54: <EntropicHavvy> For something of absolute damage? 06:31:03: <Alex4> So:Absolute Value: Whenever rolling for damage, you may decide whether to subtract the rolled value from your targets hit points, or add it as temporary hitpoints. Additionally, you may inflict one wounding damage, or grant fast healing 1, which is stackable to a max of character level. 06:31:09: <EntropicHavvy> Wait, is there an enhancement type that bypasses DR? 06:31:17: <MisterSinister> Shadowstriking from ToM/ 06:31:21: <MisterSinister> +3 equivalent. 06:31:23: <Alex4> And it last for Character level/3 06:31:40: <MisterSinister> Alrighty folks, have to close up the library now. 06:31:46: <MisterSinister> I'll be back to discuss this further tomorrow. 06:31:48: Alex4 needs to sleep too 06:31:50: <EntropicHavvy> kk 06:31:59: <Alex4> but you guys had to fucking pull me into this 06:32:00: <Alex4> :P 06:32:01: <EntropicHavvy> I'll get a discipline page up for it. 06:32:09: <EntropicHavvy> Just need a name. 06:33:51: Equation of the Geometrical Calculation 06:34:11: No, it doesn't mean anything, but it sounds reasonably cool 06:34:24: <EntropicHavvy> Which is all you really need. 06:35:34: Ja