Talk:Viveka Spectre (3.5e Prestige Class)/Archive

=Old Wiki=

Focus! (Eiji Hyrules' Mass edit)
Phew, ok, so I fixed your BAB, your saves, and cleaned up the language, but... but... no matter how much I pretty up this class, it won't just word. Power aside (and there are many things which I will say are overpowered), your biggest problem here is lack of focus. What is this class? A wizard? A psion? It gets these strange extraordinary spells, but it's also elementally attuned to nature, but suddenly we're also a ghost and possessing people, and then something else here now and...

While I've fixed many of your mechanics to the closest thing I could think of, quite a few is still unworkable or untranslatable. I'd like to help you, but first I need to figure out just exactly what this class does. The arcane archer shoots spells through his bow. The archmage gives special effects to his castings. The abjurant champion is amaster of the defensive spell and gishery. And this?

Well, I frankly haven't a clue. If you can summerize your purpose in a single phrase, then we'll get somewhere. Unfortunately it will be my suggestion that a whole lot of the things be cut once you decide precisely what you are here, be it ghost-master, elemental expert, or whatever else. So, what is the situation? -- Eiji Hyrule 19:59, February 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * Your right, swallowed more than I should. Focus will be altered to the following: wizard focus, deletion of the melds, and a greater interest with the "ghost master and possessor" side of things. Give me a day to revamp the class.


 * I have a few questions, praise, and alterations on your tremendous editing project (see below).
 * Alterations
 * Just realised that there are very few counters to extraordinary ability's. Shall depreciate greatly.
 * 50 pts of dmg before you have to roll! I found that to be way to much has been reduced to 35. But thank you for simplifying it. Maby It can be raised to 50 at a higher level.
 * Added what happens if save fails.
 * Not all nahlasit are evil. The effects of possession can be that of an "angel", or be used to assist someone in a craft skill. Thus Protect form evil does not always apply (removed); yet I like Break enchantment. (thanks)
 * Praise
 * Yeh, incorporeal is way better than ethereal!
 * Thanks for revamping the guardian, much more coherent.
 * Questions
 * Do you know of a lesser soul entrapment than SRD:Trap the Soul? Its just a 9th level (costly) spell, and a nahlasit gets body guardian at level 4. Also if from a willing creature, then many of the saves and such from trap soul would not be necessary. Thus could a lower levelled spell be used?
 * Noting that it was my intent to be able to posses people as well as monsters, should charm person be added in with charm monster?
 * Do you think possession could be done while incorporeal? Or is that just to much?
 * If expelled from possessed, and during the possession the creature just happened to walk away from your helpless body. Does your body teleport to were you are? does the guardian have to follow? Would it be better, when removed, to come back in an incorporeal state (and have to find your body)?
 * Thanks mate, I'll be jammin' to make this more coherent. Its been more than a drop in a bucket from you. --Franken Kesey 00:31, February 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Cool, lesse. Good good... the 50 pts thing was basing it off massive damage kickin, but lowering it is all fine and good.  Yada yada.  Ah, Protection from Evil.  I wasn't actually implying that possessing is evil, Protection from Evil (and Good and Chaos and Law) state they suppress compulsions, including possessions.  You aren't expelled but so long as they have it up, you can't affect them (it's a very good spell).  That and amusingly enough the no-compulsion effect isn't alignment specific so a PoG actually works on a demon possession as well as an angel.


 * I do have a suggestion for reference. Incorporeality is a powerful trait, but it's been done before, in psionics.  Look up the Psion Uncarnate.  It's on the SRD (and thus probably on this Wikia).  You can figure out the earliest you can enter that class (looking at it, it's 6th level earliest), meaning it's capstone comes at level 16.  Compare this to your own class when handling incorporeality issues.  Of course, Psion Uncarnates don't possess, you'll have to figure how much that is worth on your own.


 * For soul trapping the easiest way is Thinaun, a material in complete warrior. The sparkling metal absorbs souls, can be made into weapons, etc.  One soul per chunk of thinaun.  Also, Magic Jar may or may not work.  Thinaun, just off memory, is a bit more expensive than adamantium, something like 10k or so.  Possessing while incorporeal is probably the most likely event.  Perhaps you'd get help if you'd think this as Magic Jar: The Class.  Where you're basically doing Magic Jar + Ghostform, in new and interesting ways.


 * Not too clear what you're saying on the last bit. If a monster moves your body, do you still teleport to your body?  I'd say yes.  If your body is inhabited by your body guardian it should be a nonissue since your body can now run away.


 * Anyway, glad I could be of aid. -- Eiji Hyrule 04:00, February 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * For inspiration: Magic Jar - the class. --Ghostwheel 04:26, February 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * That's quit intriguing about the Protect From Evil, will be replaced. Minimum level increased to 5 - and some of the requirements have been increased. I have been looking at the wrong PrC for relativity and balancing - this is so much more powerful than a SRD:Psion Uncarnate. I do a complete spell makeover (again); hopefully reducing the difference. I'll check out magic jar - whats the volume and wieght is of a "chunk" of thinaun? With the last bit I was referencing "If expelled, you appear in the next closest space to the target." Are you referring to the mind or body? A character could just walk of with the nahlasit mind - does the helpless body follow? Or is the guardian inclined to follow?


 * Checked out the Stranger_with_the_Burning_Eyes_(3.5e_Prestige_Class) - I though I was being original! Dam! some one already has a possessing prestige class. Yet on closer inspection, the above PrC appears to be purely possession based; while this class has only 1 possession class feature, and an improvement to it (greater). There are a few similarity grant it - but you never completely take over the target just parts. While the for-mentioned can completely take over at first level! The class alters in a weaker fashion (in relative terms). But I'll take a gander. The trick is not to completely control - its to make others think they're in control, and channel their actions. Thanks --Franken Kesey 05:13, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

The SgtLion Discussion
I'm in need of an editor for the Nahlasit (3.5e Prestige Class) - would you be interested? I'd be some good practice for you. Though I like edits to have a twist of insanity in them. Can that be done. A good editor should never go unnoticed - but an insane one, is something to kill for! --Franken Kesey 16:19, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Aha, a most admirable style of speech and attitude to things. I only tend to edit for grammatical and lingual purposes, simple punctuation, sentence structure, e.t.c. which I can do. If you're looking for edits of a different kind, don't search me. The enthusiasm and faith is most appreciated. --SgtLion 16:26, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * The insanity part is just bull-shiting and making a pun at GD - coherence is more what I'm looking for. You will find a little bull-shit in most of my pages - its purely to open the mind. But if it makes it incoherent - edit responsibly. Sorry for the confusion --Franken Kesey 16:33, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for clearing a few things up, hows the concept hanging? --Franken Kesey 16:58, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, that was just a small check-over. And I hate to be so slow-minded, but I'm still not entirely sure what you're looking for from me at the moment. If you could reiterate once more, it'd be most appreciated. My apologies. --SgtLion 17:05, February 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * This class will be deleted in 2 days - unless it is made "complete". I have come to understand this to mean; making "not understandable, unplayable" no longer applicable. I'd hate to loose all the work that me and other users have put in. I do not know you very well, but from what I took form your comment on Surgos' talk page, it seemed your input would be helpful. I just need to clear up all confusion on this page - and greatly appreciate any concept stuff. "By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth." - George Carlin; thanks --Franken Kesey 17:21, February 18, 2010 (UTC)

Name
Noting that this class no longer melds stuff, I was thinking of changing its name. Does anyone have suggestions?


 * I know I'm answering my own question. Would "Ghost (or spectre) Yatrī" be a better name? Yātrī means traveller in Hindu - moving from mind to mind and back again. Other alternatives are "Viveka" meaning conscience, or "Akarsaka Ghost" meaning charming ghost. Vote below, If no votes will change to "Ghost (or spectre) Yatrī".


 * Name will be changed to Viveka Spectre (may take a few days)

Incomplete Template
I'd hate to loss all the work that so many users have done to this class. Noting that this class will be deleted in 2 days - unless the template is removed (or its put in a sand box). I was wondering if it could be removed, and the status be replaced with "in construction". Please place any and all reasons that the template should remain here - I'll jam them through. If their is no significant issues after the revamp could the template be removed? If there are significant problems (after the revamp) I'll move it to a sand box - does anyone have any sand? Thank you for your contributions. --Franken Kesey 18:15, February 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * In construction is still incomplete, and we don't want it in the main navigation for a number of reasons. If it's all better after the revamp, it'll get pulled and you'll be fine. It doesn't have to be perfect, just complete and playable and make sense; there are plenty of mechanically complete things on the wiki that still get minor changes afterwards when issues come up. Otherwise we can sandbox it and stick it with the Help Wanted template if you still want active user input on it even though it's in your sandbox (where other user editting is otherwise frowned upon). - TarkisFlux 18:43, February 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * That makes sense, what issues do you have with this PrC? --Franken Kesey 18:53, February 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * I've got a few minutes, so here's a more current list:
 * Groks - You still get them at level 1 yes? It's not clear again since you removed it from the class ability table.
 * Groks per day - The wording of your formulas should be cleaned up. I can parse it, but you have references to spells per day that don't belong and change the wording style between levels. This needs a consistent phrasing for every grok level that references groks instead of spells.
 * Body Guardian - Is the spirit limited in your body at all, or could they walk you off a cliff if you made them mad? You should probably say that they gain your hp, saves, skills, bab, etc. instead of "the body's". When they use a 1st level grok, does it count against your daily total?
 * Alien Hand - This needs an action type. What do I have to do to take over an appendage? Can you also provide some examples of what I could do with it in combat (like you do for possession)? Do I have to pay any additional action cost after I take it over, or is making it attack itself / stand still / drink acid / whatever a free action on my part?
 * Possession - If there's no duration for that ability, please say so explicitly. What about creatures with multiple sets of arms / legs? If I say arms do I get all of them? And if I say legs on an animal can I just make them stand still until I feel like leaving or they make their low DC save? Also, can I do this while I'm mind out of bodied, or do I have to use my physical body for it?
 * Greater Possession - While I think that requiring someone do something for X levels is an unworkable requirement, its inclussion doesn't make the ability incomplete. It does make this ability ridiculously vague though, since I have to gain two levels while in the body of something else to even use it. Do I have to spend that time entirely within them? Can I take quick breaks? Can I hop back and forth across 5 guys and gain two levels and then drop 5 zoyks? Can I start a guy when I'm level 9 and drop a zoyk immediately at level 11 when I get the ability, or do I have ot have two levels with the ability on top of two levels in them? There's too much room for interpretation here, and it leads to very very different outlooks for the ability.
 * That should do it for things that are vague to the point on incompleteness, or otherwise just missing. There's lots of other things here that I'm concerned about or have issues with, but they'll have to wait for now. - TarkisFlux 19:46, February 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Responses
 * Groks - put back onto table
 * Groks per day - rephrased groks (I had been trying to keep it from getting repetitive - but order is better)
 * Body Guardian - I already had stuff on saves BAB etc. Re-did the guardian, giving it limits. But it could still walk of a cliff - so friendly is very important! In the interest of keeping this organised, the guardians groks count against the daily total; but you can get 12 at a very early level so this should not greatly effect anything.
 * Alien Hand - Revampt check it out
 * Possession - fixed duration problem. See on limbs. Yes you could just make them stand still. I thought I had already added that you could do them in mind out of body (fixed) thank for letting me now, added limit.
 * Greater Possession - Deleted the X levels. You could "drop 5 at 11th level" but you would need an amazing wisdom score: noting: can only have (nahlásit level + Wis mod)/7, zoyks at one time. Meaning your Wis score would have to be at least 34 due to the fact that you lose at least 1 wis each. Have you ever heard of such a high wisdom? I will be doing some more edits to the greater possession section - but have to go. Thanks for your time --Franken Kesey 21:05, February 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * How are the alternatives? What are your thoughts on the zoyk removal?


 * Are you implying that once the above is fixed the template could be removed? I will be removing the template, if there are no more questions that are major issues for this PrC, in 4 hours. Please let me know if I should not. Also I am always open to suggestions - even after the template if removed. Thanks --Franken Kesey 02:18, February 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Why it's still incomplete:
 * Number of groks per day isn't mentioned. (Why are they extraordinary and not spell-likes?)
 * Mind out of Body - Doesn't say what stats your mind has, etc.
 * Alien Hand - can you act normally while using this ability? Do you possess the limb? Etc.
 * Greater Possession - opposed check--what check? How often can it be used?
 * Might be some other things I missed, but that's what I saw at a glance. --Ghostwheel 09:17, February 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * The number of groks per day is mentioned right after each level of groks. A nahlasit casts the groks by saying their true names, possessing and charming the spells (and pisonics) themselves. Thus I thought it  would be better for them to be Ex, is this two powerful?
 * gain all mental stats (noting its only the mind)
 * Minus the movement penalty, you can act normally, while using alien hand. (see changes)
 * The check is in the middle of the first paragraph. You can use it as often as you want, main limiting factor is "can only have (nahlásit level + Wis mod)/7" (see above) - have you seriously ever heard of wisdom score in the fourtys? This can only be done once every twelve days. (was already there). I also increased Wisdom lost by 1
 * Keep the questions coming - cannot fix unless I know its broken. Thanks again --Franken Kesey 17:18, February 19, 2010 (UTC)

Reviewers Remarks
This class is fun, as it brings to mind playing another persons Shadow in OWOD Wraith. It is a highly invasive class that would be terrible for most D&D games played "true", but I never gave half a shit about playing a game true anyway.

The names for abilities are a bit weird- are they in reference to something? Also, given that these guys theoretically spend alot of time in other worlds and other heads, notes on how these abilities interact with near planes (ether, shadow, astral, dream, etc.) would be helpful. Otherwise, good class.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 22:39, 16 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Groking is a concept coined by Robert A. Heinlein, in Stranger in a Strange Land (a science fiction book juxtaposing two different bionomes). I have guised 3 different meanings of the term, and multiple different definitions to each. 1) The literal translation mean "to drink"; or to understand a thing to a point that the observer becomes the observed. 2) Asking a thing to change its molecular structure, or purpose. 3) Or, to share ideas and thoughts directly with another (or incept a new thought). The second meaning has been largely removed from this page (others thought it was to powerful, and not focused enough with all 3). This class was mostly inspired by a character in the book, mind out of body, groking, and the philosophies are similar; alien hand is a medical/physiological condition (with minor differences here); while the body guardian, and possession abilities are my own creation.


 * If you can think of a better name than zoyks, I am listening. (Are there any other weird names besides those two?) I will add an ability with plane links (most likely dream). Any other ideas or suggestions?


 * Not really... mostly out of fear of subtlely changing the flavor/intent. I hate when people try to do that to me, I refuse to subject anyone else to it.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 04:26, 18 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Have added a number of unique dream abilities that retain the flavor (and make it even more game breaking). Do not worry, you did change the intent; I simply had not thought to add the other abilities. I only replaced less flavorful features (foresight, moral enlightenment), with more flavorful ones (like Lady of the Isle of Sleep, King of Dreams)


 * (It would be nice, if it could somehow be dulled down (without losing many abilities). Perhaps giving them a curse. Yet, this class when into game breaking long ago.) --Franken Kesey 21:53, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Groking
One of the major issues that needs fixing, before taking out of the junkdrawer, is spell groks. Most of the spells are sleep related, or madness related; and I am having trouble finding their psionic counterparts. Are there any powers that would be good replacements? The following list states all spell groks:
 * 1) Sleep,
 * 2) Hypnotism,
 * 3) Lullaby,
 * 4) Hideous Laughter,
 * 5) Deep Slumber,
 * 6) Symbol of Sleep,
 * 7) Song of Discord,
 * 8) Maddening Scream,
 * 9) Irresistible Dance,

Thank you --Franken Kesey 21:53, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Redundancy
Why does this still exist, in the main nav of all places, when you have a base class with the same theme and just about all of the same class features? Especially when both have been pretty heavily criticized for inconsistencies in theme and execution? - TG Cid 19:55, 28 March 2012 (UTC)


 * While the viveka and yatri have similarities in flavor, one should note the vast differences in mechanics and use. Lacerations from original:
 * Body Guardian features (Body Guardian, Guardians' Tattoo, Improved Body Guardian, Greater Body Guardian, Unfinished Business): removed
 * Groks: removed
 * Mysticism: removed
 * Mind out of Body: removed
 * Changes and Additions:
 * Secret features (Chameleon, Janni, Sorcerer, Gods): added
 * Spells: prepared spells
 * Healing Spells: added
 * Mechanics of dreams and nightmares (not finnished, yet much more compleate)
 * Possession features (alien hand, possession, and greater possession): more organized and simpler
 * 3 dead levels (where one only gains spells)
 * simplified what spells may be done in dreams and nightmares


 * Which is the reason for me not simply replacing one with the other. --Franken Kesey 20:08, 29 March 2012 (UTC)