Talk:Skandar (3.5e Race)

Room for Improvement
Reading this... there's just a lot missing. It feels empty and well, like there was an idea and it was just written up on the fly without mulling things over or letting thoughts incubate. I'll just go through and give my impressions about what's wrong here and a few ideas on how to fix it up. Let's get this goin':

Personality is currently blank. You mention that they are "hotheaded", but don't explain why this is. Moving on since I hope you plan to fill this out later. Though note for the future: Don't add unfinished articles. Work on them offlline first and think them through. Copying preloads over to a text file is a common way to work. I recommend it.

Physical Description mentions that they are humanoid in appearance... last. This is odd. It's an important detail. It should be mentioned right away. A good opening summary sentence to describe the gist of what they look like would be helpful (kinda like the Summary property, but well, in sentence structure). In addition, mention what their faces look like, how they stand or walk or carry themselves. Generalities of course, as stance varies among individuals.

Relations... is just bland and well, I have a tough time buying it. It just... needs explanations on why this is the case.

Alignment is an easy section to have pitfalls when an author is describing it. Really, it's very easy to accidentally write the flavor as character specific. The biggest problem with this section is the use of "never". PCs aren't bound by "never" when it comes to alignment. PCs are always the exception, and as this is written as a race for PCs, remove the use of absolutes such as "never". Also, combining Alignment and Religion into one section, you may want to rename it "Outlook" or some other such thing. Expand more on this if you can.

Lands is not thought out at all. Again, I hope you fill this out, because it simply isn't good enough as is.

Okay, this brings us to mechanics. With 2 LA, and a role for "big strong guy who makes a lot of attacks in melee to deal damage and contribute to the team". Now, what has this race to help it do that job? Strength and Dexterity with some dumps on Intelligence and Charisma. Large (you should mention space and reach here for clarity and completeness). Lots of attacks (via racial feats).

A few things of note here: Your notation on Energy Resistance is totally odd, being written like Damage Reduction instead. Try Energy Resistance 10 (cold). Also, explain/write out the fire vulnerability within the racial traits for clarity and completeness.

I'm not here to get into the balance or usefulness of mechanics at this point. Thunderstorm rolling in, no time. Do make changes, though. --Ganteka Future 02:43, April 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * Large size, powerful build, an extra set of arms, three bonus feats for free, +8 to abilities we care about, -6 to abilities we don't care about at all, increased base speed, darkvision, the Outsider type, and natural weapons... and all it merits is just +1 LA? Really?? --Ghostwheel 23:20, April 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Not just three bonus feats - that wouldn't even be a big deal if they were like "Weapon Focus, Alertness, and Stealthy". Bonus feats with requirements like "+8 BAB" and "+15 BAB" that give benefits like "your rogue now throws 10 acid flasks per round, with sneak attack on each". ;)
 * Really, this needs to have Racial Hit Dice up the wazoo to be vaguely appropriate. --Quantumboost 05:13, April 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * A few questions:
 * Does LA+2 seem more appropriate? Noting, only 2 bonus feats, +6 useful ability's(net +0), and no natural attacks.
 * Isn't 40ft average for a large beast?
 * Is the fur excessive?
 * Should I just delete the fluff sections that are greatly lacking
 * Is the heart beat increase/ decrease, over-powered?
 * Speak softly, and carry a big stick! --Franken Kesey 23:33, April 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Add the heart stuff into racial traits. IF they can haste or slow themselves, write it into the racial mechanics, not just mentioning it in fluff. also, does that mean they are adding str + 2x dex mod + bab to attack rolls, while hasted (gaining an additional +1 to hit)? --NameViolation 03:32, April 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * For speed can add Str and Dex modi again - will add to traits. Also are the slowed abilitys ok? It seams that its the lesser ability - any ideas on how to bring it up? Thanks --Franken Kesey 04:04, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Proofreading
This article needs it. Badly. I tried fixing some of the errors, but, man, it just needs so much. I had to stop, otherwise I'd probably just rewrite the whole article. There were three different spellings of the race! I assume skandars is correct as it's the page title, but skandards was found throughout and there was even a skanders in there. Seriously, just take a few minutes to read what you write. Read it outloud even. There's mechanics (not written in sentence form) in the middle of a paragraph of flavor. The flavor itself is sorta written in this odd, uncaring, not-quite sentence structure clinical notes feel. It's really distracting and makes me dislike the race in general. Is English not your native language? Do you really need someone to just rewrite everything? I'm not really sure where to begin for pointers to correct stuff. I'll just make a short list as follows: That's really about all I've got for now without going on a rant. --Ganteka Future 22:03, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Copy this entire article and past it into a text file to work on offline. Preferably a document editing program with spellcheck and grammar check.
 * 2) Make notes in a little footer section or whatever to keep your ideas (and possible ideas you might incorporate) organized and easy to reference.
 * 3) For mechanics of the race, reference other "fair and working races that attempt to achieve a similar goal" for comparison. As is, I would never allow this in a game I ran.
 * 4) Open up communication amongst people who do homebrew stuff (that's us) since we can help. Ask things like "What's the problem and how can I fix it?".


 * ...and now for a rant, granted, it only covers some of the mechanics and the first paragraph, so, if this is any indication, it should actually be much much longer.


 * Here's a rundown of some problems currently with this article:


 * "Hotheaded large four-armed hairy aliens from a rugged land." - This is a sentence fragment. It should read something like "They are hotheaded, large, four-armed hairy aliens from a rugged land."


 * "Skandars are from 7'9" to 10' tall, males being bigger than females." - Ugh, this one is awkward. While in descriptive text it is difficult to avoid using passive verbs (also called "being verbs", such as "is", "are", "was" and other verbs that don't express any action other than existing), make an effort to avoid them. Passive verbs are boring. You don't want to bore people. Also, avoid numbers (large numbers are fine) and abbreviations within sentences. This sentence should read something like "Skandars stand from seven foot nine inches tall to ten feet in height. Males grow taller than females." Even then, it's still rather boring with little spice.


 * "They are humanoid save the following features." - Another broken sentence that's inaccurate as well, as we don't want to confuse people about the humanoid shape and the humanoid type. Skandars are neither. They are monstrously humanoid in appearance, but not humanoid. Also, this sentence ends in a period, but reads like it should have a colon for the start of a list. This sentence should read something like "While they are outsiders, they appear much like monstrous humanoids."


 * "Covered in blue-gray hair, that darkens at the head, with orange eyes nails and teeth." - This appears to be both a fragment an a run-on. It lacks a subject and is two separate thoughts. This sentence should read something like "They are covered in blue-gray hair that darkens at the head. They have orange eyes, nails and teeth."


 * "1 extra pair of arms that connect to their body's about 2 feet inferior, and 6 inches posterior of shoulders; both arms are more muscular than normal humanoid arms (but otherwise the same)." - This one's a mess. I can hardly make sense of it. I'm also unsure why you're trying to be so specific about it, while missing a few key descriptors. Try something like "Skandars have another pair of arms that connect to the side of their torso about two feet below their first pair. This second pair is attached a bit closer to their back than their primary arms. A skandar's arms are powerfully muscular, ending in typically humanoid hands, with four fingers and a thumb."


 * "skandars' mouths very slightly protrude from head, (like a cats mouth), and have slightly elongated blunt eye-teeth." - Man, there are some weird errors in this one. There are errors with using apostrophes and odd choice of lingo for using "eye-teeth", which while accurate, feels as if it doesn't clarify the issue at hand. Try something like "Skandars have a short cat-like muzzle with slightly elongated, blunt-tipped upper canine teeth."


 * "Otherwise the head looks like a hairy Giants'." - More apostrophe trouble here. A mess in general. Try something like "Skandar facial features otherwise resemble those of hairy giants." That is, of course, if you insist upon their appearance being close to that of giants, which, from the previous description, sounds rather like they don't, even for hairy ones, whichever those are.


 * Anyways, this has taken enough time, and seeing how you've ignored my previous attempts to get you to update the flavor text, I feel as if I'd be wasting my time to continue further.


 * Moving on to mechanics. You still have the mechanics of the Heart Rate stuff listed on the page, but not under mechanics. Fix this. In general, Level Adjustment should be avoided as it easily can cripple characters. However, the basics of what you are going for are simply not able to be ECL 1. I highly recommend using (and learning about) Racial Hit Dice in the place of Level Adjustment. Now, Racial Hit Dice doesn't replace Level Adjustment on a 1:1 scale, nor any other easy to judge scale. Though, 2 Racial HD per point of LA is often close, varying mostly upon the granted abilities, how level appropriate those abilities are, and the granted HD of the creature type.


 * That said, this race is horribly lopsided, and if the author wasn't willing to work on it, I would lobby to have it deleted. Considering the time given since it has been added, I strongly feel it should already have been deleted. However, I also feel you that you're not going to learn anything if your stuff just gets deleted. This race should be moved to a sandbox until drastic changes are made, as described above, for example.


 * The race really just gets too much in the way of being a big brute for what you pay for it. Also, fix that "Reach" entry. There should be only one number there, probably 10' since they're practically huge in size, which is odd, because their weight and height are on the low end of being large. Powerful Build does not need to be in italics. "Multiweapon Fighting (Ex):" can probably just be removed as a header to that, since it's just a pair of feats, one of which is spelled wrong. Charisma is not a measure of not getting along with others. It is a sense of self and the ability to project one's self outwardly. Also, I kinda goofed before. While you removed it, the cold resistance might read better as Cold resistance 10. The other way works better for multiple energy types, but looks silly for singular energy resistances.


 * Really, to fix this up, just par back some of the biggest benefits a bit. It doesn't really need those free feats. +6 Strength is a bit high as well, when +4 is adequate. Heck, crank up the Intimidate bonus to +4 since they're already taking a -2 hit from the Charisma penalty. Still it lacks stuff other than mechanics to make it a fun option to play. Right now it's just generic four-armed strong thing without anything that really says "yeah, I recognize that ability as a skandar ability".


 * Anyways, there is a lot of work to be done here. --Ganteka Future 00:38, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * My life has been fulled of late, making me unable to work on the flavor - do not congure that I am ignoring your insight... just don't have the time right now (with school and all). Will sand box - but would still much appreciate any input while its sand boxed. (Note: this website is not my life!!! thus if it takes days or weeks before I respond consider that normal. But most input will be responded in a timely manner). Thanks for the help - grammer is not my forte! --Franken Kesey 20:57, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Mulled Thoughts and Tinkering
Okay, I made this race for fun. I would like you to take a look over it for guidance and ideas to see what you're missing and how to improve upon the skandars. I believe it holds true to what you were trying to accomplish with the skandar, and while still rather rough, is solid enough to help fill in a few gaps of things you have overlooked or ignored. I had to fill in a lot of gaps in the flavor text with information the skandar simply doesn't have, and what I wrote is still quite bare bones and missing some details. Things like how they relate to each other, what their civilization is like, how they raise their young and why they are how they are should be answered in the text of the skandar. --Ganteka Future 00:38, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the example. Would it be reasonable to remove the the following: Improved Multiweapon Fighting, +2 Str, -2Cha, and LA +2; but add: -2Int, -2Wis, and +1ECL? Thanks --Franken Kesey 20:57, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

You Broke it Harder
So, you broke the race's playability into totally unusable territory. I've sandboxed it for you for now. Please, do not move it back unless you get the say from an admin. Essentially, you went and added in a whole new slew of problems. There's even more mechanics in the flavor section now! None of that should be there... at all.

As for the power accuracy of the race... you made it more powerful. You made it much more powerful, from what I can judge anyhow, as some things just don't work at all. Sure, the ability scores are now in the negative overall, which really just limits what kind of characters anyone could play with this race. The Slow Heart Beat ability is broken. It says nothing about how often it could be used and is entirely inappropriate for such low-level characters. There is the same problem with Speed Heart Beat.

A note on using Racial Hit Dice and their function. Racial HD are a way to allow races with powers that are inappropriate at low levels to still be playable, much like Level Adjustment. However, unlike LA, a race with built-in HD is playable as is without taking any class levels. What you've created (barring the errors anyhow), looks to be a monstrous brute available at ECL 1, since it has 1 HD. Now, by the rules, races with 1 racial HD get to drop that HD in exchange for a class level since supposedly they don't get anything that is unbalancing at that level of play. However, this is not the case with the current skandar. You even still have it listed at 4d8 (which would be 4 HD, not the 1 you claim it gets)! Short, it needs at least 2 racial HD if you go that route, or just stick with LA if that is easier for you to understand. Also, your marked ECL is just wrong. As written, it's 1, which is also incorrect for what it should be.

If you would like me to completely rewrite the flavor text, let me know, because it needs it, and I will not allow this race to be placed back in with the other races until it is complete and reworked. Same goes for mechanics. Now that it is sandboxed, you can take your time as you please. --Ganteka Future 01:31, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * I would much appreciate, if you'd be so kind, as to rework the flavor text. Thanks --Franken Kesey 01:59, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Not to mention that the supposed drawbacks for the sped up heart beat (increased food/air) are basically irrelevant as written, since they don't actually affect the skandar during combat (not to mention that you can just slow your heart down when the combat is over and still not suffer any penalties because it only seems to apply while your heart rate is accelerated). So basically you have haste+rage without drawbacks that stacks with haste/rage for major awesome. Despite the fact that we already pointed out that this race was generous for +1 or +2 LA, you added more stuff to make it worse, reintroducing a concept that we previously shot down. Perhaps it would be be better if it said: "once in it's lifetime, the skandar may triple its heartbeat and thus commit suicide via cardiac arrest, pathetically ending its miserable life". Sarcasm aside, the idea of accelerating the heart rate in that fashion has been attempted twice, both times without success. I know you want this race to be unique and all, but four arms and effectively Huge size are just enough, even without anything else. Those alone are probably worth +2 LA and maybe even a couple racial HD. - TG Cid 02:48, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Removed heart beat stuff from this race (but added to the Ghayrogs (3.5e Race) - with drawbacks and cost), and most the other stuff (some other added to Ghayrogs). Now just a "large four armed beast". Is +1 LA now appropriate? What else needs to be fixed before it can be un-sandboxed? --Franken Kesey 23:10, April 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Now it looks like a LA+1 but now it just seems bland. its generic 4-armed Yeti. Booga Booga. Meh. Nothing Really makes them stand out in my mind now, add some fluff. DO they have a culture? are they traveling Barbarian tribes, or do they build small communities and hunt? add some more detail. OR make it a LA+2 and give it scaling cold resistance or shore up some ability scores. Makin it a +2 you couold probably make total stat mods "str +4, Con +2, Int-2, Cha -2. Give cold resist=Hd and maybe give them a hibernate ability, something like "when i n a state of hibernation a skandar heals at 5x the normal rate." if you want the fast heart ability make it something like "a number of times a day equal to the skandars Con mod the skandar can act as if it had the pounce special ability. if already in combat the skandar may alternatively take 1 additional attack at his highest bonus on a full round attack"--NameViolation 00:44, April 26, 2010 (UTC)