Talk:Hyperjump (3.5e Creature Ability)

30 tentacles
You know how you escape from a black hole? Throw a bucketful of pennies at it. It'll be so busy collecting the money it won't be able to grab you. Also, 45 seconds is a terrible number, and you should feel bad about writing it down. I also note that Hyperjump is the strongest weapon in the arsenal of any large craft: with accurate scrying, a Gun Ship can destroy any spaceship by arriving near it. Time isn't slightly altered if the amount of time it takes to get from point A to point B is the same from the pilot's perspective and that of an outside observer. --Foxwarrior 02:54, 11 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Changed both black hole and burst. You bring up a good way to use it in the military; yet there is a buffer for the defending parties, Nausea for 3min. --Franken Kesey 03:33, 11 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, Nausea for 3 minutes so you can vomit while you celebrate your swift victory. I notice that now the arriving burst also hits the arriver, which is possibly a good thing. The quasi black hole "rules", on the other hand, are not. There's no way to determine how fast you have to be in order to escape the black hole if you're near the edge, for one thing.
 * Here's my new Hyperjump-based attack: sneak a Large Usafiri within 10 miles of the enemy fleet, while simultaneously emptying several thousand pounds of doorknobs, boots, or kittens on the other side of the fleet. Then Hyperjump away. The fleet gets sucked up, and then smashed with several thousand 20d6 damage hits as kittens smash through the walls and bludgeon everyone to death. Technically this strategy is based more on WotC's failings than yours, but whatever. --Foxwarrior 04:03, 11 November 2011 (UTC)


 * You took out both of the time effects? Making it travel at a speed of 200,000 times that of light, but feel instantaneous from the perspective of the spaceship and its crew, would be amusingly reminiscent of relativity, you know. Also, you do realize that Escape Artist checks have basically nothing to do with either the speed or the strength of the craft: a beaten up old frigate piloted by Space Houdini could escape from the center of a black hole, despite the black hole pulling them an average of 1 mile per round, and the frigate having a maximum speed (according to your admittedly stupid spaceship stats) of maybe 800 feet per round if it runs. Speedster McSpeed, the man with a fly speed of 50000', on the other hand, is likely to be sucked in despite being able to fly away from the hole in a single round, because he doesn't know how to remove his hands from handcuffs. --Foxwarrior 20:41, 12 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Toned it down a bit. I still states that hyperjumping vehicles cannot move more then 10 miles away, cannot hyperjump within 100 miles of a planet, and cannot be damaged for 2min, thus: 1) one could not get within range of a planet to fire at a city (not even a Guzurren could make the distance); 2) if the city was mobile (not on a planet, it would also get sucked into the black hole with its allies; and 3) the ship vanishes after two minutes - not sticking around for the 30min (which I need to make more clear in the article). --Franken Kesey 23:57, 14 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I had the time effects so as invoke travelling - not teleporting. With most players able to do this from level 8 onwards - it seamed somewhat weak, and unuseful - which is in addition to the calculation needed by the DM for relative distances unknown (there has yet to be a galactic map for any galaxy or universe - thus relativity has no use).


 * Would grapple be better? Speed on earth has to do with mitigating traction, or falling. While speed in space you need something to push-off-of. Thus a fast, sail boat would not move at all; yet its counterpart steam engine will. --Franken Kesey 21:48, 12 November 2011 (UTC)


 * It's true that distances are hard to determine if you have no map or vague idea of relative positioning, but Hyperjump would still not be inherently worse than Greater Teleport, since Greater Teleport can't be used to transport things that big unless you have someone strong enough to carry them.
 * Grapple is, in a way, worse; it means that a big slow ship can escape from a black hole more easily than a small fast ship. I have no idea why you're talking about speed on earth: all fly speeds I mentioned should be assumed to be fly speeds that work in space, since anything else would be stupid and irrelevant. --Foxwarrior 02:02, 13 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I see. Grapple and escape artist are the only related checks cannon that I know of. Are you suggesting to create a new skill check? How would you do it? --Franken Kesey 03:56, 13 November 2011 (UTC)


 * I would suggest having the black hole pull you at a speed or an acceleration, as though by gravity --Foxwarrior 03:58, 13 November 2011 (UTC)


 * That's a bit better, but you have played enough D&D to know that a creature with a 300' speed can move up to 1200' in a round, right? --Foxwarrior 20:19, 14 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Yes, will fix. --Franken Kesey 20:40, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Combat Usefulness
So, you really hate space fleets then. All large craft in your setting are armed with a weapon that lets them disable and mildly damage any ships in a 50 mile radius for 30 minutes, almost automatically. Since ships in your setting can only move at about 1200 feet per round, keeping your fleet separated by 50 miles will mean that no ship in the fleet can come to the aid of any other ship, completely negating any numeric advantages you could get from the arrangement. --Foxwarrior 21:08, 14 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Though it would be fun for there to be effect from jumping. 50 miles gives a lot of elbow room, for anything over 250 speed (8 different ships are), it would take 165 rounds to get to the center. You can in fact still move in a black hole, simply not out; thus other ships could come to each others aid. Perhaps it would be best for there to be a zone in the center that functions much like the eye of a hurricane; one that gets hit by the debris of the outer sector, and cannot be escaped from, yet crafts may move freely. --Franken Kesey 21:34, 14 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Your enemies in the black hole can't come to each others' aid unless for some unfathomable reason you chose to leave ships of your own within the radius of the black hole. My point is that once your enemy's fleet is in a black hole, you have 28 minutes to bombard all of their capital buildings before you teleport away, and if the enemy spreads their fleet out in order to avoid that catastrophe, they'll be so far apart that you can pick them off one by one without fear of reinforcements. You could even just destroy the one ship protecting their capital city, and bombard that city to nothingness while charging your hyperdrive for an attack that's over before reinforcements can arrive.
 * My point is that actual space fleet battles can't happen unless both sides are idiots. --Foxwarrior 22:06, 14 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Toned it down a bit. I still states that hyperjumping vehicles cannot move more then 2 miles away, cannot hyperjump within 100 miles of a planet, and cannot be damaged for 2min, thus: 1) one could not get within range of a planet to fire at a city (not even a Guzurren could make the distance); 2) if the city was mobile (not on a planet, it would also get sucked into the black hole with its allies; and 3) the ship vanishes after two minutes - not sticking around for the 30min (which I need to make more clear in the article). --Franken Kesey 23:57, 14 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Only 25 miles and 5 minutes? So puny and short-lived. A Guzurren might not be able to make the distance, but you just have to drop things into a rapidly decaying orbit. Also, have you explained anywhere why weapons have range limits and spaceships have maximum speeds in your setting? --Foxwarrior 00:34, 15 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Increased powers. The outward burst damage would only effect individual creatures, and very small ships (with so many star ships having shields or self repair). I see what you are getting at with maximum range. Space is not a total vacuum - thus things do slow down, and get displaced by gravity. Having a thing with limitless range does not sound right, yet the ranges should defiantly be increased - numeral suggestions would be most appreciated. While maximum speeds seems to sound more logical. Having the same thrust behind you five miles ago, will not increase it now - only its force (due to momentum).


 * What are your thoughts on these rooms? --Franken Kesey 01:25, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * It's too bad your abilities at detecting sarcasm over the internet are exceptionally bad.
 * It's possible to throw a rock from one galaxy to another, without putting engines on it, in real life.
 * Are you going to make The Secret into a variant rule for space travel, or is the Law of Attraction not the law you meant by "law of attraction"?
 * Are you saying that at some point ships should stop speeding up when they run their engines, and instead just increase their momentum? If so, Einstein had some formulas for integrating a seamless method to achieve that goal. As a game design choice, though, this means that you'd be taking out "flying from one star to another without teleporting, and getting there before the elf crew dies of old age" without taking out "flying from the edge of the solar system into the enemy planet, blowing a hole in it and making everyone die". --Foxwarrior 01:44, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Do not disagree, yet there still would be a maximum speed.
 * Mixed this discussion with another, meant gravitational pull.
 * Being in a low gravity environment only decreases exterior drag, not force (i.e. speed). I do not disagree with you on range. Only see limitless range to be game breaking. Perhaps after a certain distance weapons would loss all accuracy? Or one must roll for effects?
 * Here here on the sarcasm. I hope that at least my ignorance and stupidity amuse you. Thank you --Franken Kesey 02:12, 28 November 2011 (UTC)