Talk:Zatoichi (3.5e NPC)

Huh?
Are you making an NPC or a monster here? NPCs follow all the standard character creation rules. You don't get to just stick random stats in an NPC like you can do with a monster. He needs levels and all of the special abilities that they bring, and a full equipment list, and so on. And if anything is out of standard progression, it needs to be explained. Things like "He gets +4 to his dex and this bonus feat for having completed some god's quest" (and those then those probably count against his equipment ammount in some way) aren't forbidden, but they're uncommon and need to be pointed out. So how many levels of what class does this guy have? How did he get his stats to where they are? How is he qualifying for feats he has that he doesn't meet the prereqs for? Etc. - TarkisFlux 21:28, February 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm trying to make a NPC - but did not know the rules. Do NPC's really get that many skill points? How is the Dex increase explanation. Many of the feats had been removed - In my mass edit. Yet they were re-added a few minutes after words - would it be better if they were re-removed? As a side note: being non-standard is quit common for me, due to the fact that I don't know the standards. As seen in my Vroons (3.5e Race), [[Viveka Spectre (3.5e Prestige Class), and now this NPC. I think a better standards page, would greatly help me and other new users, along with minimising your personal editing. Just a suggestion, thanks --Franken Kesey 22:01, February 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * You make an NPC the same you make a regular character, and then if you add on anything outside of the standard rules you make notes of it. If you are uncertain how to make a regular character, I'm going to have to refer you to your PHB, since the closest I can find in our SRD is the multi-class characters section which doesn't give me quite what I want. - TarkisFlux 22:08, February 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I know how to make a regular character - don't worry. So the only difference bettween an NPC and a players character is that the DM controls it? Thanks --Franken Kesey 22:16, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

yes, npc's are basically dm characters. Once you know the system its easier. Npc's get as many skill points as anyone else of the class (havent currently checked to see if the numbers are right). a few good rules of thumb to remember are:
 * bab comes in 1 of 3 forms. equal to HD(fighter types), 3/4 your # of HD(rogue, monk, cleric, ect) or Half # of hd (wizard/sorcs)
 * Saves come in 2 forms, "good" and "poor". good starts at 2 ends at 12 (like a fighters fort save), poor starts at 0 and ends at 6 (like a fighters will save)
 * most numbers can be determined hy # of hd (gained from levels or monster race), for example at 13th level a Tenken has a 13 bab, and base saves of 4/8/4.
 * npc's, like pc's, get a stat point every 4th level and a feat every 3 levels (not counting bonus feats from classes and items).

hope i explained things ok. If you ever need a hand, just send me a message. i normally check the wiki every few hours, mainly the Recent changes. --NameViolation 22:24, February 21, 2010 (UTC)

Gear
what should he have? and why is the sword cane dealing 4d8 damage? exotic, one handed d8 18-20x2 (15-20 if he takes improved crit) sound good? since katana has a str 13 pre req we cant use that...(we could make it a +1 vorpal sword cane and i think he'd be broke :P)--NameViolation 01:58, February 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Is the dmg to low? improved crit is a great idea (will replace greater cleave).Noting that it would be his sole item of value, I think the vorpal sword is a good idea. What are its stats? But don't take my opinion, the voices have stopped. Thanks for the ideas --Franken Kesey 02:08, February 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * no, the 4d8 damage you have is rediculously too high much for base weapon damage. a greatsword does 2d6, a katana does 1d10, i reccomended 1d8 for damage --NameViolation 23:26, February 22, 2010 (UTC)

vorpal, Upon a roll of natural 20 (followed by a successful roll to confirm the critical hit), the weapon severs the opponent’s head (if it has one) from its body. but it would be ALL his money i think. not the *best* option, but interesting. Otherwise I think he just needs some stat boosters. i would love to say "he read some domes Of +2 dex or wisdom, but the blind thing... books on tape? :P --NameViolation 02:46, February 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Fixed dmg. If the blindness occurred 3 years ago - would the domes still be an option? Are there any domes in grail? The vorpal trait would be quit powerful and all, but what else is he going to use the money for? Also PRC's are usually only are around for 2 levels - so if he used the money for something else would it really be that beneficial? Thanks for your words of wisdom --Franken Kesey 00:31, February 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * ummm the vorpal sword cane cost 720,000 gp +cost of masterwork sword cane, not 7,500. I don't think you can quite get that yet...--NameViolation 02:26, February 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Didn't initially see the cost table - sorry about that. Will revamp to a better pricing, hows the rest doing? Thanks --Franken Kesey 02:32, February 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * his hp should be 13d8 (66 hp) with his low con. he still needs 1 point of wis to qualify for feats. its comin together nice--NameViolation 02:39, February 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Wis fixed. Can you have multiple additions to the same weapon (ie keen and thundering)? Better? Thanks for the help - do you want to be a co-author? May you grok in fullness --Franken Kesey 02:59, February 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * i wouldn't mind the co author title. now i wanna mayke an npc woth exotic weapon (flying guillotine) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQmEXYCJtoA :P. but yeah, you can put multiple enchants on aweapon. not sure about flaming and frost on the same weapon. no WoTC material has a weapon with both, but thats a whole different, non relevant, topic. I might make a version of this and have you check it out. i was thinkin about makin a couple versions of this. a psy-warrior build, an exalted build, maybe something else too.--NameViolation 03:29, February 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Your now a co-author. The flying guillotine is pretty amazing, I'd love to help you with it. My Vroons (3.5e Race), might be good for such a NPC (telekinesis and multiple arms especially). I'll work on anything you give me mate - how helpful I might be is another question. I can riddle you a poem - but spel out a conondrum is another question. Finally! Someone else who appreciates old Japanese films. Have you ever seen Seven Sammuri? Always a pleasure --Franken Kesey 05:04, February 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry couldn't get you in the box. I have a few questions on your most resent edit that follow. Why did you greatly raise the weapon hit chance and dmg? and how did it go from +7 to +11? With Merciful all dmg is non=lethal - right? How did the AC stuff go up 2, when insight only went up one?
 * But my main concern and praise is for the blind flaw (yes they can occur at the same time). Thankyou for putting it together into a flaw, I appreciate and find reason behind it all but the following. "All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. Characters who remain blinded for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them."
 * 1. If within the blind sight they shouldn't have any conselment - blind sight is better than darkvision when finding foes. Do you mean when his enemys are beyond 20ft? If so that would make more sense, and is a great idea - but needs to be specified.
 * 2. What do you mean by "grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them. --Franken Kesey 05:50, February 25, 2010 (UTC)

i made the numbers all add up. BAB 13 + 7 dex mod +1 magic weapon= +21/+16/+12. damage is d8 + 10(dex mod +1/2dex mod two handed) +1 magic weapon= 11. stat wise I'm using the stats for an elven thinblade. and treating it with the sheath on like a club. AC went up because Wis mod went up. changing a stat changes everything attached to it. skill checks, saves, whatever. I'm just correcting numbers. and the blind is cut and pasted from the blind status condition in the srd. forgot to delete that line. i figured he overcame the permanent -2 ac and always flatfooted over time.--NameViolation 00:38, February 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for explaining that - didn't know that the magic weapon effected that much. But the wisdom only went up one point, or half a modifier, meaning it shouln't effect anything. So where did the extra point of AC come from? 10+2+4+7 = 23 not 24. --Franken Kesey 04:55, February 26, 2010 (UTC)

problem
i noticed you had a keen thundering weapon listed at 4k price. heres the thing, thats not how it works. first it has to be +1. then you can add thundering, a +1 enchantment. then keen, another +1 enchantment. that makes the weapon a "+3" cost wise, or 18,000 + cost of weapon. then the sheath is another 8k for +1 merciful. so far thats 26k. Zatoichi has about 1/3rd of that (a 13th level npc's budget i believe). When determining item cost Its not "2k"per +1 ability, its "+1 ability" + "+1 ability" = +2 weapon. I'll work over gear later. give him cool stuff thats not to flashy.--NameViolation 02:32, February 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Wow major difference, thanks. Defiantly drop the merciful, and keep the keen, thanks for clearing that up. Should I just sell the fog horn? It would make all his opponents have reduced visibility - making thing alot harder for them. But if sold could have thundering and keen. Do you have a better idea? --Franken Kesey 04:41, February 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * keep the merciful. i ment to say he should have about 75,000 worth of gear total. the fog horn could work in is favor. I'd possibly beef up the sword f possible. and personally i'd do like a +2 wounding weapon. also, he doesn't meet the pre reqs of deflect arows. so i swapped it with imp.crit. and dropped keen since they don't stack.--NameViolation 07:08, February 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes I love the fog horn - a seriously lucky roll! Why do you keep adding extra attacks to the sheathed and knife weapons? He gets 5 attacks with a slashing weapon (only slashing weapon) from his class - not applicable to bludgeoning or piercing, limited supply see stores for details. Thanks for fixing the feats. He still has an extra feat, which should I delete? Do you have an extra zero? Making the weapon Vaporal is only 72,000 gp, along with wounding and shocking burst, or finally wounding and shocking, and then sheathed merciful. Why settle for just wounding? SRD:Manual of Quickness in Action +1 may be another option If you had an extra zero disregard. Thanks again, how your flying gulloten thing going? --Franken Kesey 15:51, February 26, 2010 (UTC)--


 * my bad on the cane. but daggers deal slashing or piercing. are you including his 3 bonus feats from class? if you gotta ditch 1 i'd say hold the line can go--NameViolation 16:04, February 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Will fix the daggar, when Shukuching (the vehicle behind his multiple attacks) he also gets a negative 2 on attack rolls - will fix (my fault forgot about this. He gets feats as follows: 2 from flaws, 1 each 4 levels, 1 for being a human, and 2 from class; making the total 8 sorry miscounted - I also don't know how many he would get at first level. What are your thoughts on revaming his items? see above. Hows the flying gulloten hanging? --Franken Kesey 16:44, February 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * also he gets +1 to hit, +1 ac and +1 reflex saves and a bonus to speed and extra attack with during his 3 rounds of haste a day--NameViolation 02:55, February 27, 2010 (UTC)

Inspiration
This might give ya some inspiration--just wanted to point out a few things if you wanted to make NPCs "by the rules" of NPC character creation; first, they don't use bogeys or rolled equipment. Next, if you want to have the NPC at the same CR as their level (and not higher), you'll want to use the elite array for stats (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). Lastly, you'll want to stick to NPC wealth by level (35k for level 13 characters) if you want to stick with what NPCs are "supposed to have" at that level. --Ghostwheel 02:24, February 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * I was planning to overhaul all those numbers at some point. i thought the npc wealth was higher for a lvl 13. I've just been cleanin up numbers and pitchin ideas and bein all seig heil on pre reqs. i'll wok on it later --NameViolation 02:53, February 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the inspiration, and working through all my ignorance. Bogeys and quitment deleted. I have no DnD books or references so I have been using Gayr Sagol (3.5e NPC) for reference (fighting NPC and similar CR); your din NPC is much appreciated.
 * If elite ability scores are 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, and 10 was appreciated to be zero, the the net score is 12 at first level. Zatoichis' net score (with the same appreciation) is 13, and gets an additionl 3 from ChLvl - I will take away the extra 1. thanks for the help --Franken Kesey 21:31, February 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * but its not about "net score", its about using the scores 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 and 3 stat points from level. the current scores of 4, 26, 8, 5, 19, 12 are weird and crippeling. 5 con? 4 str? those are horrible stats. --NameViolation 01:01, March 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Fixed the ability scores, and revamped equipment. Yet he still has 6000gp to use - any ideas? --Franken Kesey 02:11, March 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * he cant afford his weapon. he should only have a total of 35,000 worth of gear. gloves of dex +4 are 16,000 not 4,000, he doesn't meet the pre reqs for deflect arrows. replace it with improved crit and remove keen from the weapon. now he can afford to make the sword +1 thundering, or +2. Screw the sheath, leave it mundane. so far thats 24,000. Grab a SRD:Periapt of Wisdom + 2 were up to 28k, bracers of armor +2 32k. 3k left. you can make the sheath +1 or get a ring of protection +1 and pick up a healing belt for 750. healing belt gives +5 t oheal checks and basically lets you heal 2d8 3/day. and if you include the cost of the maserwork canesword, he's exactly broke. flavor wise, describe the bracers as "rags". that should help keep his stats up to necessary level for feats.


 * Sounds good except for the armor part, he looses most of his class features when wearing armor. All of the rest I'll keep - any ideas with the extra green? thanks


 * bracers of armor are ok, like on monks and wizards.--NameViolation 06:45, March 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * If he's automatically overcome the miss chance from Blind, why is it a flaw and not a trait? Is it written out anywhere at all?
 * That said, NPCs in general don't get flaws or traits (though I could see an exception for Blind since it's vital for the concept unless you get the Blindfold that gives you blindsight in MIC); also, how does he get Underestimated and Scent? --Ghostwheel 18:27, March 1, 2010 (UTC)

I think i got'em all right
i got the numbers all adding up in the right places. so it looks like he's done. or atleast damn close. lemme know if you change numbers i got everything added up just right. (i think)--NameViolation 06:56, March 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Why do you keep changing the skills? he doesn't nee 1 rank in heal or jump or balance. the 1 rank doesn't really make a difference and its more stuff to keep track of.--NameViolation 14:48, March 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Name: doesn't he need at least 1 rank to use the skills? Why did you take away wounding? Isn't that what the +2 is suppose to be?
 * Wheel: at the top of his class features it states "Ichi gains everything from the Tenken (3.5e Class), with the exception of movement bonuses (i.e. unarmored speed bonus, and sprinter only)" - keeping his speed at 15. Is that unreasonable? Should it be increased to 30'? To make it the same as is hear the unseen feat. Thanks --Franken Kesey 18:34, March 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * Why shouldn't he get it if it's a class feature? It sounds like you're just making rules and exceptions up :-/
 * This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but if you're going to break conventions you might want to put a disclaimer at the top that the NPC doesn't follow the NPC creation rules --Ghostwheel 18:40, March 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * If he had a 60ft speed he would only be able to see the first half! So unless he was able to use his hear the unseen feat multiple times during his turn, he would be completely blind and worthless. If he can do it repetitively, I see no reason why he shouldn't get all the class features. Let me know if he can


 * and that means the underestemated ability has to go. scent too. but without the slow trait and improved toughness he just lost 26 hp. and his to-hit with the sword goes down by 1.--NameViolation 20:10, March 1, 2010 (UTC)

i believe hear the unseen takes a move action. i don't have my complete adventurer handy to double check.--NameViolation 20:18, March 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * fixed the unseen - does he get blindsight or sense? So, why doesn't he get wounding on the blade? --Franken Kesey 20:46, March 1, 2010 (UTC)--Franken Kesey 20:46, March 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * he cant afford wounding. a +2 weapon costs 8,000 gp, adding wounding makes it cost 32,000 gp. he only has 35,000 to start with. thats just not gonna work. he didn't save every single penny to upgrade 1 item. he has blindsight in a 5' radius, like the feat says. hear the unseen effectively gives him blindsense. also, leave blind as a flaw and let him get a bonus feat. traits give a bonus and a negative, blind gives no real benefit so its a flaw.--NameViolation 04:44, March 2, 2010 (UTC)