Talk:Sith/Jedi (3.5e Class)

Class
Wouldn't something like "Force User" be a base class, and then Sith and Jedi as Prestige Classes that go off of that? (Or even just flavorful titles, depending on what alignment you are and whether you're evil or neutral--like most level 10 force users are jedi/sith?) --Ghostwheel 03:50, March 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sounds like a good idea - yet for it to be beneficial, the prestige classes would need to stack. Also noting the "force user" (or whatever I decide to call it), would be utterly necessary to get the prestige class; and the class would have exponentially less flair without the prestige class. Would it be better to just keep them together? Keep the prestige and class separation and lower the base class - but have them both on the same page. Or would it be better to have a 10 level base class, and the sith/ jedi on trees that link to base class, but not to the prestige main page? Do you have a better alternative? Also are the class features clear? Thanks again --Franken Kesey 04:03, March 8, 2010 (UTC)

Taint
Fixed with prestige class suggestion. Need ideas on the taint, Sith and Jedi should stack, but you gain 1 and a half negative levels. --Franken Kesey 02:56, March 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Is taint, dark side points, or whatever, strickly needed? I see a pretty clear paralell to Jedi = good, Sith = evil, so you can just have it be alignment based, and whenever an alignment-shifting event(s) occur, thats when you qualify, or lose, your Jedi/Sithnessity.


 * And the neutrals? They have to choose light or dark, like a cleric, and stick with it.  In fact, isn't Mace Windu supposed to be a Jedi with a few Sithy powers in his arsenal or something, I heard such once. -- Eiji Hyrule 01:51, March 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * I had wanted the sith/ jedi class to not be alignment pure - sometimes desperate times call for desperate measures. As seen when Windu attepted to kill Palpitein - saber now, have a trial later. So I used taint to allow for alternate alignment dabbling; along with making the switch more reasonable - such that a 15 level jedi would not get corruption after virtue, or get force lightning at a very low level. The taint mechanics also deters most from feature selecting (i.e. skipping jedi level 16 because the sith feature is better). Do you have a better vehicle? are these problems nominal?
 * Ah, Master Windu, another reason why I liked the taint (although I was basing it of of Anakin). I wanted to make sure that a character would still be able to saber-fight someone of their level - but gaining force lightning seemed unreasonable. So all physical ability mirror each other (so Anakin can still fight Obi-Wan), but features like force lightning or corruption are not gained until a later date. Let me know if any of this sounds unreasonable, or down-right repugnant - thanks for the time --Franken Kesey 04:52, March 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well on the subject of that scene, I'd call that law vs chaos (especially since the council as a whole was seen to be, presumably, LG, it was a smack in the face of the council, but not the jedi per se). That and one act does not alignment make, your mileage may vary.  But actually it works out.  Assume it was an alignment shifting event, and you were LG.... welcome to TN, or something.  Still a Jedi, just got to be non-evil.  The rest I can't really comment on, since they involve class features I have not looked deeply into, but just my two copper. -- Eiji Hyrule 05:42, March 23, 2010 (UTC)

Use standard progressions
no BAB of 2 at 1st level. use a standard progression like fighter or rogues BAB. and skill points should be INt based, not wis. and use standard saves. looks like you want 3 good saves.--NameViolation 05:39, March 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for catching, has the same bab and saves as a SRD:Monk. Most of the classes and prestige classes that i've made use wisdom as the skill modifier - if its skills are found from intuition or critical thinking does it have to be Int based? --Franken Kesey 06:51, March 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * dowesnt matter. skill points are int based. if they could be int based then monks and clerics would already be using wis for skill points--NameViolation 15:33, March 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Skill points are always int based unless you're using some variant rule (and using wis would be a bad variant btw, as it demotes yet another stat to dump levels), but even then you shouldn't write your variant into a generic class as the standard rule. Classes should be playable using standard rules, with references to suggested variants at best, or they should be listed in the variant itself so people don't confuse it for a regular class.


 * Anyway, Int based skills, all the time, forever and ever, or don't put it up as a standard class in the standard class places. Same thing if you want alternate progressions for attack or saves, though in those cases you can just use a base progression and then give them bonuses to those numbers as a class ability. - TarkisFlux 16:39, March 9, 2010 (UTC)

Incomplete Template
Other than the Campaign Info, Is their anything missing or not understandable? Do the taint mechanics work? I was thinking of deleting the "Faith in the Force" feature - with what should I substitute it? Other than the Campaign Info, is there any reason to keep the incomplete template? Thanks for the help --Franken Kesey 21:34, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

Damage
the only real problem i see with this as a whole is overall lack of damage potential. I've seen jedi's done before where the add extra d8's every 2nd or 3rd level to damage with a light saber. everyone does light sabers a little different, some people make them touch attacks, some people give them unbalancing damage, some make them worthwhile exotic weapons and let levels of jedi (or whatever force user) add to damage. I'd say adding an extra dice of damage (not sure if it should multiply on crits) every few levels will make this able to hold its own in toe-to-toe combat. --NameViolation 22:34, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

AC and Attack
Hey. I'm also into playing a jedi/sith class in campaigns. I've often played a soul-knife/sword-sage/ exotic weapon masters build though. With it I have succeded on most of the light-saber stuff but have never got very far with either the force push or lightning abilities. I like your class but you should correct a couple problems. 1. There are no rules saying jedis should be able to wear armor, consider giving them proficiency with light armor and expand their abilities so they function while wearing atleast light armor. 2. Provide a 2-handed lightsaber option, most-likely simillar to the bastard sword/katana. 3. It deals a little too much damage with the lighsaber. 4. Jedi or sith should not be paths. It should just be padawan with 20 max levels and seperate prestige classes. One would be the sith master which would require an evil alignment and some force abilities and the second class would be the jedi which would require a good alignment and possibly grant smite-evil abilities. Other prestige classes could also be created, including ones that provide "jedi-mind-tricks" or improved force abilities. 4. Its not necessary but it would also work if you gave the padawan a low BAB but gave the class a kensai-like ability that gave him/her a enchantment bonus and/or special abilities with the brilliant energy ability highly advised or maybe mandatory. Please consider. I like the idea but you should work on it. -


 * Speaking from both a flavor perspective and a mechanical one, I don't think the Jedi should be able to wear armor. The insight bonus to AC combined with a belt of the monk (which is still legit because it's not armor) gives it its Wisdom mod to AC twice (they may not stack, but even if they don't the precedent that it can handle itself without armor is still set.


 * Any one-handed weapon can also be wielded in two hands, dealing 1.5 times your Strength mod in damage instead of just your regular bonus, so that particular contingency is already in place. A bastard sword is normally a martial weapon when wielded in two hands but requires EWP to use in one hand.


 * I also think you may be underestimating the Rogue Balance Point that this class is marked at. Aside from the lightsaber, the Jedi doesn't really have a means of dealing a lot of damage, so I think the lightsaber damage is fine as is. Same with the full BAB, for the same reasons (at least that way the Jedi's sole contribution is a dependable one). Plus, since the Sith and Jedi really are extensions of the Padawan as stated in the class, I think making them paths instead of prestige classes is the right call. Making them prestige classes might insinuate that they were accessible via some other means, which they really aren't nor should they be.


 * Lastly, brilliant energy is kind of bad. Sure it goes through armor and stuff, but it doesn't harm non-living materials. D&D-wise, that's really bad because it means undead are the bane of every Jedi ever. Then, Star Wars-wise, there would be no cutting through droids or anything equally awesome. - TG Cid 04:28, August 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm back! almost forgot about this website. Sorry for any inconveniences, and thank you both for the advice and council. I, as of late, have had far more important thing bevelling my mind (blasphemy I know).


 * A few quick points:
 * 1. You both refer to the armor proficiency, but have fail to read it. It states in padawan "they cannot wear shields or armor of any kind". Originality I did this for flavour reasons, but I also second ThunderGods' eloquent logic. And only request his advice on if the monk belt (and similar items) should stack.
 * 2. Two handed damage would be the same as any other weapon - I don't see any reason otherwise. When one considers that the lightsaber forcelightning and energy absorb, are the only ways of dealing large dmg, the rouge level seems both sound and balanced.
 * 3. As ThunderGod pointed out Brilliant Energy would not work. Yet do not want to denounce your idea of a "kensai-like ability". What alternative special abilities did you have in mind?


 * Thankyou again. Please let me know of any other monstrosity's. Good Night and Good Luck --Franken Kesey 16:55, September 30, 2010 (UTC)

In defence of this class
This is not mean to have any effect on the above rating - only following ratings.

Direct responses to Ghost:
 * 1) will remove all <> pointers. filling in were need be.
 * 2) Due to a few long discussions (as seen above) I kept them together to maintain symmetry. I wanted a 12th level sith to be compatible with a 12th level jedi. This could not occur if they were on separate pages. While the padiwan could be put on another page, it might also separate itself to much. There are certainly different ranks of the rouge level of balance. So I find no reason to separate this class!
 * 3) Will fix the name if its that important to you.
 * 4) A page is not incomplete just because its "stupid". It needs an explanation for why its stupid.

To all others:

I am certainly not knowledgeable with starwars DnD (have never even looked at it). But, here is a list of some unique quality's that cannot be found elsewhere: If this list is incorrect in any way let me know.
 * 1) capacity to change prestige classes with limited drawback's
 * 2) Force Lightning
 * 3) Sith Corruption
 * 4) Energy Absorb
 * 5) Jedi Virtue

This class also melds the soul-knife and sword-sage builds with monk-like builds. Allowing one to be in the center of battle, as well as on the sidelines. Something that few classes do. Then again, an author usually makes for a terrible reporter. All I ask for is a non-superficial approach to this class. Live what you love --Franken Kesey 22:41, 28 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Even if they are strongly associated, the Padawan and Sith/Jedi *are* two different classes and should be on different class pages. No other classes on the wiki are coupled with exclusive Prestige Classes for exactly that reason. If you want to make a D&D-Star Wars Sourcebook, then in that sourcebook you can have them next to each other - but this page isn't a sourcebook, it's a class page, and should have only one class on it. You should put the Padawan in its own class page and add something in the flavor sections of each class saying that most Padawans become Sith/Jedi, and most Sith/Jedi come from former Padawans (respectively). --Quantumboost 20:08, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't know about that. I actually prefer the formatting here. What I might suggest is splitting it into Padawan (3.5e Class), Padawan (3.5e Class)/Sith, and Padawan (3.5e Class)/Jedi. Then he can just transclude the others onto this page (which can allow each to be found in search results, but also keeps them formatted the way he likes it). I don't think our formatting conventions should be a noose. --Aarnott 20:34, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Alternatively, just make the base class 20 levels long and have a "dark path" or "light path" chosen at level 11 that gives you different abilities for each level of the class thereafter. --Aarnott 20:40, 29 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, a 20 level long jedi class with an ACF for sith would work really nicely. If FK really is gone, I may try to adopt it myself and do something along those lines. - Tarkisflux 20:48, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Campaign Info Help
When I first noticed this class on here, I had to put it into my game. I am doing a sword and sorcery style game though, so I couldn't use the tech like a true lightsaber. What I did with this was I had it to where they were a rare kind of people and when they picked up their weapons, their energy (I had tweek them a little bit in my house rule to fit, so please bear with me here) would alter their weapon, causing the blade of the sword to glow, and function exactly as you have the lightsaber in the class. I would say you have it as well as you can without taking away from the class, so the GMs have to find a way to adept them to the world, or just not use them. I hope this helps, if not, sorry for wasting your time.


 * I'm glad that it worked so well for you. Thankyou for the aknowledgements, but it is not very lucid to me exactly what asstance you needed. Care to explain? Live what you love --Franken Kesey 06:14, 15 January 2011 (UTC)


 * How have the Sith Corruption, and Jedi Virtue abilities been working out? Are there any abilities that are giving you problems? --Franken Kesey 06:19, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Before I start, I'd like to point out that no one (amazingly) has made a PC of this class, so I can't say exactly how it would work, but I would think that the Jedi Virtue ability would work out fine, the Sith Corruption, however, when it comes to its robotic limbs, would be a bit of a problem. However, golems are almost robots to me. So the Sith have a secret temple or some-such that only they can get to where they have learned how to manipulate the art of golem-crafting to where it uses the electrical signals from our nerves to power a mechanical limb. Just a suggestion. --Dukelzan

Problems and solutions
Split up into 3 different pages. What other issues does this page still posses? --Franken Kesey 07:29, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Reviewers Remarks
Very flavorful with abilities to match flavor. There are issues:
 * 1) As a 10 level class that forces a choice between good and evil, I would like to see two subclasses for Sith and Jedi, especially since there were separate degrees of both.
 * 2) Not sure if this was intentional, but throw lightsaber does not specify if it counts as a returning weapon. It would be helpful to make that distinction.
 * 3) Finally, it would be great to have more background info on this class. Jedi and Sith both have a very rich background that should be detailed, if maybe a bit more vague to allow cross campaign use.

--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 22:25, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Questions:
 * How do you imagine the sub-paths should be done? By lawful/chaotic (no sith or jedi was only one)? By demeanor, or focus (fighter, or range (making electric shock into one path; while maneuvers would be in the other))?
 * It was not meant to be a return weapon, Force Hand is used to get them back.
 * Here, here. Please pardon the poor fluff - I will work on it indeed. If you would like to help with this habitual error of mine you are welcome to. I can also add you as a co-author if you would like. --Franken Kesey 01:30, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The subpaths should be written up as focusing on life v death. From what I can tell, Jedi are all about good and neutrality, but most importantly about peace and health across the galaxy. The Sith are selfish by comparison, dealing out death and judgement as it suits them. As far as powers... stick to the cannon.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 01:41, 17 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I disagree with SC. I'd go with the SW D20 idea and for both the Sith and Jedi sides have a lightsaber brawler sub-path, and then a more mentally powerful battlefield controller sub-path. I also have a second idea, though: What if you made the Sith/Jedi powers as more along the lines of Warlock-style invocations? That seems flavor-wise more consistent with growing stronger in the force. I'm thinking of the Force Unleashed games where you could learn force choke, then later could Force choke more quickly, then learn a mass force choke, etc.. IMO, most of the non-passive Jedi powers are all at-will SLA's. To me that seems to grant the most freedom to your budding Jedi/Sith. By this I mean you can pick and choose what focus trees of Jedi powers appeal most to you rather than being locked into the tighter regimen of a sub-path. You just need three categories of force power invocations: Jedi, Sith, and Universal. Just an idea I just had.-- Spanambula 04:11, 17 October 2011 (UTC)


 * ... And how is this different from "stick to the cannon?" Sometimes I wonder if people on here can even read...--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 04:23, 18 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Mechanically and philosophically speaking I am a bit confused, Spaz. I was under the impression that you wanted me to have 4 paths, did I grok wrongly? Also the sith and jedi, in cannon, are not very clean cut. I would argue that the first 3 (4-6), and the second 3 (1-3), have many conflicting philosophical definitions. Perhaps an underlying message of the saga is that dichotomies are falsies. That there are degrees of each, and the galaxy must have balance.


 * I like the idea of invocations, yet am not fully sold. I have never made an invocation class, and have no books, what do they entail? What is a SLA? If I transfer, into new formating, should I keep the padawan untouched? --Franken Kesey 04:28, 18 October 2011 (UTC)