Talk:Sharpshooter (3.5e Class)

Comments
wow. 200 extra damage at 20th level. wow. --NameViolation 11:59, October 31, 2009 (UTC)


 * Have you seen some of the damage meleers put out at level 20? 200 damage is decent but not anything to write home about at that level. Plus, it requires an additional defense to be passed (Fort save). --Ghostwheel 12:01, October 31, 2009 (UTC)


 * See also: Harm. --Andrew Arnott (talk, email) 19:55, October 31, 2009 (UTC)


 * yeah, but this can hit from a half mile away. lets see a melle do that. and harm cant bring you below 1 hp, and is touch. ranged should be weaker than melee since it has the advantage of not gettin hit. also, how often do aim points refres? i didn't see taht. and shouldn't the stuff be based off class level not character level?--NameViolation 23:41, October 31, 2009 (UTC)


 * Alrighty, one at a time.
 * Please learn to indent?
 * A mile is 5280 feet, right? Remember that you take -1 to spot things for every 10' they are away from you. That means at half a mile you're taking a penalty to spot of 264. How are you going to target things, much less shoot at them? And what you're calling "weaker" ends up being "just plain useless".
 * Aim Points refresh as explained under Aim pool.
 * Anything else? --Ghostwheel 23:47, October 31, 2009 (UTC)


 * Note that harm is much weaker than, say, finger of death. It is just more comparable. Note that it is also a 6th level spell (maxing out at 15th level). This ability is 20th. It should be at least 4 times the power (given the exponential factor of spells and abilities) and I would argue given the range that it totally is balanced correctly. --Andrew Arnott (talk, email) 00:33, November 1, 2009 (UTC)

Balance Level
This class should be at Wizard balance point, because it's much, much stronger than the Rogue. His sneak attack (sneaky shot) can actually be applied to anything, even opponents immune to critical hits, and be used from tripple range (of course, as you gain levels, but still). It also have a lot of features at least as awesome as the sneak attack, and the sneak attack is arguably the main feature of the rogue (in combat, of course). A class that has not only an improved version, but also lots of other features is not on the same level as a rogue. (I acutally playtested it, made them fight under various circumstances at different levels and the rogue only chances are when he surprises and gets a round of sneak attacks...)


 * Compare to something like a warblade prepping up with Avalanche of Blades + Combat Rhythm followed up by Raging Mongoose + Time Stands Still--you'll see that the damage on this one is nothing. Alternatively, to a basic combat rogue... Plus, even 1% concealment will shut down sneak attack. --Ghostwheel 04:46, February 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Not to mention rogues are only at the eponymous level of balance because of UMD, so yeah. -- Jota 06:30, February 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * I actually think this class is great, and will be suggesting it to my players as the ranged character of the party. My point is that it's above the rogue level. My comparison wasn't with the warblade, but with the rogue itself, since it's the "rogue" level of balance as stated by Jota. The only thing that the rogues get is the UMD, and even though it's a good ability, it's only very effective if you don't have a wizard in the group, or else the wizard's magical abilities and Magic Devices usage shades the rogue's ones. That said, the Sharpshooter is much, much more powerful than the rogue in combat. It can sneak attack anything, add it's Dexterity bonus in damage and even do extra attacks with Countershot. Other than that, it has AoE Hail of Arrows, which gets to be an excellent ability in late levels, doing massive damage to all enemies around.--ElfsMaster 18:19, February 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * You seem to forget a number of important points: the sharpshooter needs to accumulate aim points against an enemy to activate those abilities, and might not gain enough to activate all those abilities, and should he switch targets he loses the aim points he's gathered so far. Furthermore, specifically for sneak attack, it's fairly hard to sneak attack often and consistently from range, which means that you'll need 2 other characters flanking the target. And then there's the fact that a combat rogue can pull off more than a sharpshooter--against a single target, which is where they excel, while a sharpshooter is better at debuffing targets and AoE damage.
 * As for UMD not being effective if there's a wizard in the group... gravestrike/vinestrike/golemstrike UMD'ed can let you freely sneak attack monsters that are usually immune. Wraithstrike turns all your attacks into touch attacks, make it so that you virtually always hit. Divine Power gives you the BAB of a fighter. Need I go on? Adding dex to damage is easy--pick up a level of swordsage and the Shadow Blade feat. Same for many ranged combatants, with the Dead Eye feat in Dragon Compendium.
 * One thing that I don't think that I'm expressing well is that in truth, rogues aren't a really good example the rogue-balance level, especially when you ignore UMD and take it out of the equation. See the combat rogue for a build that focuses on actual damage, rather than a fairly dedicated skill monkey. Alternatively, take a look at the swordsage or warblade--both are classes that are very firmly in the rogue category of balance, while being able to use their abilities all day long. If you want to compare it to a per-day character, duskblades are a good representation of what a rogue-level class can do.
 * In short, when you compare to other rogue-level classes, the sharpshooter's damage isn't all that impressive--and damage-via-attacks isn't that impressive anyway, since you need to bypass so many defenses (AC, illusions, concealment, cover, etc), especially when compared to relevent examples from the rogue-level balance point.
 * All that said, if you still feel strongly that this class would be better rated at the wizard level, you could always post here and if your arguments are cogent and relevant, you can get the rating changed against the creator's will. And feel free to do so--I won't be offended if you do :-) --Ghostwheel 19:00, February 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * I would normally surmise the wizard level as being able to do things outside of combat (fly, teleport, etc.) or save-or-die effects as well as abilties like color spray or glitterdust than can end a whole encounter in one round. The sharpshooter lacks these for the most part (you may be able to clear a room with Grim Shot + Deadly Shower but that's about it) and does not gain them directly as a result of is class features, so I would not deem it Wizard level despite its combat superiority to the standard rogue. - TG Cid 19:36, February 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * You actually couldn't combine those two at the same time, since Grim Shot is a standard action while Deadly Shower is a Full-Round action ;-) --Ghostwheel 19:46, February 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * At level fourteen, the sharpshooter may spend seven Aim Points to force the target of his next attack to make a Fortitude saving throw if the attack is successful, or take an extra 1d6 damage per character level of the sharpshooter (DC 10 + Dexterity modifier + 1/2 character level). Well, it doesn't say anything about the time it takes, I just assumed it that spending Aim Points is a free action. Since it power "the next attack" and the Hail of Arrows specifies it's a single attack, I can't see why (with the current wording) you can't combine both of them. That would make a 60ft area of two attacks + 10*level + 1d6 per level on a failed save (and the save probably will have a high DC, since it's 1/2 level + dex modifier). I can't see a rogue killing an entire army in one round (while a wizard could pull that off). Of course, it would have to be level 22 to use the 11 points, but it's still wizard like amazing. As for the uses of UMD: you already can sneak attack anything, you already have fighter BAB... And you can always have brilliant energy arrows/bolts for the CA. --ElfsMaster 10:54, February 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Clarified the ability--that said, like you said before, you'd need to be level 22 in order to effectively use them both together if they worked that way, and SoDs would still be more powerful, which a rogue could UMD with ease, or even something like Crushing Fist of Spite might be comparable--and that one's usable every round of combat, where Grim Shot is usable only once. The DC of 10 + 1/2 level + ability mod is pretty standard--not going to be higher or lower than most other characters out there who use their highest-level abilities. As for a rogue killing an army... like I said before, UMD a scroll of meteor shower (a fighter-level spell), or crushing fist of spite, or any of the other dozen spells that deal damage en masse. Then again, the warmage could probably do the same thing, and that's a fighter-level class, so the ability to kill an army of very weak foes is a feat that most nigh-epic characters should be able to do, IMO. I'm not sure what the point of your last statement is... I could just as easily have the combat rogue before have brilliant weapons, and do more damage against a single target if their AC weren't too high. Which is a tradeoff--the sharpshooter will be good at taking down multiple weaker foes, while the rogue better at bringing down a single big guy quickly, as well as have more tricks up his sleeve via UMD. It's a tradeoff, but doesn't necessarily mean that one's better than the other. --Ghostwheel 18:03, February 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well... I still think it's wizard level, but that's really just a matter of opinion. I know that that's the standard, but they're mostly a secondary ability or come from PrC classes... Anyway, this class's power is not only about the amount of damage it does (which is pretty high), but also about it's other abilities. Even when the enemy succeeds his saves, he still takes a penalty. A level 18 character can pretty much keep an enemy pinned using called shots to the leg if the enemy has speed of 30 (most two legged monsters that don't get class bonus speed), no matter how good the opponents fortitude is, and still accumulate Aim Points. In the worst case, he would slow them down and hit and run to the enemie's death. Against a ranged character, he can blind, no escape from that either. He can also disrupt magic, no escape from that, and with 5 points cost, past level 15, the Aim Pool would be refreshing at a rate similar to the spending (move action aiming). So, I think it's probably better than the wizard when you fight the villain (powerful) and it's vessels (not so much), or against a single enemy (i.e. a dragon or other loners)... Of course, wizards still own against a large amount of enemies... Also, about the disrupt magic, just to make sure about the wording, a Prismatic Ray (5th level spell from Complete Arcane) would have a concentration DC of 20 + 1/2 level + dex modifier?
 * Btw, I've just talked to one of my players and he also loved the class, so he'll be playing it on my next campaign... Maybe then I'll have a better point of view to this class's balance level (since everyone wanted what we call powerful classes (so I can make proper challenges rather than either the wizard owns, or you all die), if the Sharpshooter doesn't get outshined it's most likely wizard level...). For now, I've stated my point, as I think the balance level is more like a guideline to the DMs and players...--ElfsMaster 20:50, February 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * If you honestly think that, why not bring it up on the forum? If the correct balance level for it as it currently is, is wizard, then I'll happily change things to make it rogue-level, or assign it to the wizard class level. But first one needs to establish that it is wizard-level. --Ghostwheel 22:21, February 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, forgot to answer--the DC on the concentration check would be 10 (base) + 10 (twice spell level) + 1/2 sharpshooter's class level + the sharpshooter's dexterity modifier. So if hit by a level 10 sharpshooter with a Dexterity of 24, the DC would be 32. --Ghostwheel 06:44, February 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure that a forum vote to get it changed against your consent it really necessary here, since discussion hasn't actually broken down here. Before it gets to that, I think ElfsMaster should make his case a bit more explicitly. So far he's (not a gender assumption, just a standard pronoun) only really been concerned by it's damage output. I haven't done the numbers, but I'm not sure that this greatly exceeds a spirited charger in that respect, and he's just Fighter level. This can deal a substantial amount of damage and it has some very solid single target status effects, but nothing fight ending on it's own or even particularly above a standard rogue. These things aren't wizard level on their own. That it takes time to build up to them doesn't really matter in the balance assessment, since it's just a method of allowing them the use their powers all day long. So it's a great combatant, and it's got some solid utility skills (for all that they matter), but it doesn't have the campaign derailing utility or instant fight ending abilities common to wizard level. It can deal with the HD bloat common at higher CRs, but it doesn't do much in excess of that.


 * So I'm pretty much with your assessment of the class. It's a solid rogue level class that trades out single target damage for single target non-fight ending status effects once in a while. And when he decides to multi-target, he's likely burning a whole round in setup for it, which is a completely worthwhile and legitimate trade-off at that balance level given that he might has to make sure that his target lives through the round against the rest of his friends or he loses the setup round (with whatever aim points he got against the target that he needs to initiate the hail against). Some of the combat stuff might be high rogue level (maybe...), but the out of combat class stuff is a lot more limited.


 * 1st of all, I don't want that kind of discussion... Like "I'm saying it's wizard so change that damn thing already!!" Forcefully make this change it's balance level is REALLY not what I'm looking for, so a forum poll isn't really an option. If Ghostwheel thinks it's rogue level, and after my arguments he didn't change his mind, he's the author of it and surely understands the balance system better than me, so it will be rogue level. Thanks for the good discussion, I guess I'm understanding the balance system slightly better now.--ElfsMaster 18:19, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

Team Fortress Sniper?
After all, the longer you aim at someone the more damage you do... --Ghostwheel 07:17, December 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * Be polite. Be efficient.  And most of all, have a plan to kill everybody you meet. -- Eiji Hyrule 07:23, December 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * BOOM. Headshot. --Ghostwheel 07:25, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

Aim points
Hey just wondering with the aim points, so the page says...

1d4 Aim Points, plus his Wisdom modifier divided by four and rounded up, plus his class level divided by five (minimum 0)

Does this mean, (I'll give some random numbers to make estimates easier for myself)

i roll a 2 on the d4. + my wis mod of 6, divided by 4, giving me a total of 2. Plus my class level of 8, giving me 10 divided by 5, so i end with a total aim pool of 2?

or does it mean,

2+6, divided by 4 giving me 2 (aim points) Separate equation Class level divided by 5, so 1. Giving me 3 aim points in total?

Would be much appreciated if you could include some type of math formula (just to make it easier on my brain) xD thanks Balthuras 16:34, September 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * I believe it means the latter. The first part is (1d4 + Wisdom mod)/4, and then the second part is your class level divided by 5. Those two are calculated separately and then added together for your Aim Pool. Of course, Ghost is the leading authority, but I think the latter result is what you're looking for. - TG Cid 16:47, September 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Cid is correct; the only thing that should really be variable that isn't determined before combat (usually) is the roll. I'm also considering adding a bonus to damage based on the number of AP you have against a target at first level, something like a bonus equal to half the number of AP you have. Thoughts? --Ghostwheel 21:08, September 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sounds good, as at 1st level you seem to have aim points but nothing really to use them on until a lot later Balthuras 06:05, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Anchor
The anchor linking to the Sharpshooter ability instead links to the page header. --DanielDraco (talk) 21:44, 22 September 2012 (UTC)

Feats
Why don't you add a feat that lets it take archery related feat as if you had a fighter level and BAB equal to your class level?


 * Mostly because there are no good feats that are both archery-related and require levels of fighter. --Ghostwheel (talk) 00:09, 1 December 2012 (UTC)


 * But many have BAB requirements. With low BAB we may be 2 or 3 levels behind a fighter of the same level for feats purposes.  Of course we don't have as many feats, so we are not really stepping on there toes.  A sharpshooter should be able to preform all the fancy tricks that a fighter can with a bow, even if they don't consistently hit as hard or as often.--173.242.124.71 00:51, 1 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I'd argue that just because of their base class abilities (Hunter's Eye, Precise Aim, Sneaky Shot, for example) that the Sharpshooter hits just as hard and just as often as the fighter with ranged weaponry. That said, what "fancy tricks" do you think the sharpshooter should get that he doesn't from WotC due to his medium BAB that aren't really trap feats in any way (ugh) or straight up vertical bonuses (double ugh)? --Ghostwheel (talk) 14:41, 1 December 2012 (UTC)


 * They should be able to get feats like Woodland Archer or homebrew feats like Ranged Threat at the same level that fighters do, if they spend the feats.--173.242.124.71 15:53, 1 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Why? They're not as trained in the martial arts as fighters and know a couple of tricks that others don't while sacrificing their overall training (though maintaining the same accuracy with ranged weaponry) compared to fighters.
 * And by the same rationale, rogues should be able to get Elusive Target, Giantbane, and monks should be able to get Raptor School as fast or faster than fighters do, but this isn't the case either. You may just want to remove BAB requirements completely (or instead make them level requirements) in your games if it's something that causes a considerable amount of cognitive dissonance for you. --Ghostwheel (talk) 16:36, 1 December 2012 (UTC)