Talk:Cattine (3.5e Race)

There's a reason why most LA 0 classes limit to +2/-2
I can tell you now that you're gonna run into problems with your +6 Dex, -2 Str, -4 Con. Also, I added your author box.

May I suggest, if you really want more than a +2, +4 Dex, -4 Str, -2 Con? -- Eiji-kun 02:13, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

(Race Redone) Looks much, much better. Before I go rating, here is two things I feel need a bit of polish.

''This dose NOT change the number of attacks the character gets from their class. If the class only grants the character 1 attack for their level then they only get 1 attack.''

Not sure what this means. Attacks granted by BAB?

And the other is just specifying if Feline Form is Extraordinary, Supernatural, or Spell-Like. From what I can tell, it is either Ex or Su. If you need explanations of the differences feel free to ask. Otherwise, good job on the redeux. -- Eiji-kun 04:36, 17 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I added that line about attacks as people seamed to assume that having claws which 'can' be used as an armed attack means the character gets extra attacks per round. Not sure what BAB is.


 * In the player's handbook the number of attacks a character can make per round is specified by the character's level and class. Most 1st level character start with only 1 attack per round. People assume that since they have a 2 sets of claws which can be used instead of a drawn weapon they gain 2 "extra" attacks which is not the case. The have 2 extra weapons on them at all times. But a characters attacks aren't determined by how many weapons they are wielding. A 1st level character can hold a sword in 2 hands but that doesn't automatically give him 2 attacks per round at 1st level. He can still only make 1 attack. Krahazik 15:12, 17 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, but natural attacks are a monster thing, so for some reason this means they have special rules: Natural Weapon. --Foxwarrior 15:16, 17 August 2012 (UTC)


 * BAB is short hand for Base Attack Bonus, the thing that you get from class and level that determines how many iterative attacks you get to make. It is not true that holding 2 swords in your hand doesn't give you two attacks, as can be seen in the Two-Weapon fighting rules (those attacks have rather large penalties though). Further, natural weapons are a special monster thing (as pointed out by Foxwarrior) with their own rules. If you want them to be able to use their claws to deal damage but not have them treated as bonus attacks, you want an ability like this one instead:


 * Always Armed: Cattine have retractable claws on their hands which can be used with an unarmed strike to deal lethal damage. Extending and retracting their claws is a free action. While their claws are extended, their unarmed strikes deal 1d4 slashing damage and have a critical range of 19-20, x2. These remain unarmed strikes, however, and provoke attacks of opportunity as normal. These may be enhanced as a natural weapon would.


 * Or, if you don't want to go the "provokes AoO" route, you can go with something like this:


 * Always Armed: Cattine have retractable claws on their hands which can be used to deal lethal damage. Extending and retracting their claws is a free action. While their claws are extended they are considered armed. The claws deal 1d4 slashing damage and have a critical range of 19-20, x2. These may be enhanced as a natural weapon would.


 * Either way they get the claw attacks, but it's tied in with existing weapon rules and you don't have to worry about edge cases or rules exceptions. Note that the bite is basically unsalvageable if you don't want it as a bonus attack, and does not appear above as a result. I have also cut the feet claws because they don't fit the "attacking like a weapon" design idea you have, and don't need to be here as a result.


 * What 1d4/5 levels? The larges SRD weapon damage is 1d10 for a small creature (with greatsword or greataxe), or 5.5 average damage; whereas this deals 7.5 at 10th level, then deals 12.5 at 20th – more than a Disruption Cannon (3.5e Equipment)! A flat score is best. Also are they bludgeoning when retracted? Still think crit score should be higher. --Franken Kesey 18:52, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Picture
Is about what you were going for? --Foxwarrior 02:36, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Updates - 08/16/2012
I have made some updates to some of the mechanics will be looking into how I might be able to adjust some of the paragraphs to read better.

For thier physical appearance, the character Merle from Escaflowne TV was the inspiration.


 * Alright, let's take a look and discuss some things. See if we can make some progress here. For starters, I want this to be clear: Not liking an article doesn't mean we have anything against the author, it just means that the article isn't up to the quality standards we aim to uphold. Getting feedback is awesome and it will only (hopefully) make you a better author and game designer. That said, on with the show!
 * You picked subject matter that's been done before... a lot. This is gonna make you're job as an author a lot more difficult since anyone reading it has likely read at least one other catfolk race before. Sadly for me (because I like variety), I've probably read well over a dozen. They're that common, it's nuts. Anyways, this also gives you an opportunity to really do some awesome things. Research is key here. Find out what other catfolk races do and do something different. When designing a race, it's really all about filling a niche and filling it well. The less your race messes with the status quo of the world you toss it into, the easier, but at the same time, a race that does include world-altering flavor adds a new touch to the campaign. Just something to consider. About filling that niche, work on a concept that defines what the race contributes to the world at hand and keep in mind that no race is a "single-class" race, that is, every well-designed race (typically) has enough diversity to maintain a variety of lifestyles and roles to function properly. Let's look at the flavor.
 * Argh, that first sentence! Spelling error! furies Also, our subject is missing!
 * "A race of humanoid cats or furies who are more cat than human."
 * Your first sentence, and by extension, your first paragraph, set the tone for the rest of the article and what the reader is to expect. Now, writing isn't easy and I'm certainly not the best at it, but here are a few tips on the subject. Punctuation is your friend. Avoid using "being verbs" (is, was, are, being) when possible because they're boring. Sometimes you have to use them, and this is okay, especially when you're telling the reader what something is. Look, I just did. The problem with "being verbs" is that they aren't exciting, but they can be used for effect. Here's a revised first sentence:
 * The rarely-seen cattine are a race of small-sized anthropomorphic cats that worship the spirits of nature.
 * Really, the goal there was to get in enough information to inform the reader about what's coming up in the rest of the article. If this ends up being too much of a problem for your authoring skills, start by reading it out loud to yourself to find weird errors and then get a proofreader. Anyways, moving on. It's always good that whenever you explain a racial detail to explain why that's the case.
 * "Cattine are distrustful of any person who is not cattine."
 * Why is that the case? Probably because they once got hunted down to near extinction and thus make sure to teach their young to be on the edge around outsiders. Problem is, it doesn't say that. Make sure you give the reader the information they want instead of them asking questions.
 * Looks like we've got some specific regional information. That's fine, though I personally find it a bit off-putting when trying to introduce such races into a game that doesn't have those regions. So, you can have it, just make sure you explain why they might not be in that region anymore. While a user can always ignore flavor text, it's also useful as a selling point to get them interested in using the race.
 * Since this is getting really long already, I'm trying to skip through some stuff and just head on to the Racial Traits, since that's the core which determines their usability. A well-designed race should really provide at least these four things for a player: A) It doesn't cramp up the kind of character he wants to make, it only lends to it. B) It provides things that are useful for several kinds of characters. C) The things that it does provide scale well with usage at all levels of play. D) It gets things that are fun to use both inside and out of combat.
 * Let's start out with the ability score adjustments. Races don't get odd-numbered ability score adjustments. Why you ask? Well, they're abusable in point-buy system games. Also, even-numbered ability scores always provide a mechanical adjustment to the function of a character. Races have even-numbered modifiers because then we always notice them. It's like, the point of mechanical granularity dude. Recommendation: Go with -2 Str, +2 Dex. If you really think you want to cram in more racial traits to compensate for a -2 Con penalty, go for it, but it's not gonna make would-be players happy (and also is a discouragement to casters). Since they're small anyways, they probably will be avoiding Strength-based stuff as much as possible, so Strength is likely to just be a dump stat.
 * On to the other traits. 40 feet base land speed is pretty darn good. Having that instead of 30 is really gonna limit the number of other things we can have as bonuses. Low-light Vision is fine, but I can't help feeling they might benefit from Superior Low-light Vision. It's hardly a power boost and adds a bit of allure to playing the race, since it's less common.
 * That's a lot of +2 skill bonuses. My recommendation here is this: Make all those skills into "they're always class skills" skills. If they're really good at those skills, they'll have the opportunity to continue being good at those skills. Tack on a "they gain X amount of skill points per level (x4 at their first level) allot-able to only those skills" where X is a number you like. 4 is reasonable. With that, they're more likely to have ranks and more likely to succeed on the things they're racially good at throughout their careers, while at the same time, staying within the expected range of capability.
 * The +1 Reflex save thing is boring and only serves to add power where you'll want it for other places that actually do something fun. I recommend dumping it.
 * For Cat's Fall (notice how I added an apostrophe in there), don't ever use wording like "her or himself". Pick a single gender and go with it in your racial descriptions. For the ability itself, it's really clunky and something I wouldn't want to have to write in shorthand on my character sheet or continually have to look up. Something like "She takes half damage from falling" or "She ignores the first 30 feet of falling damage. When jumping down with a successful Jump check, she can extend that to the first 40 feet of falling damage." Bam, easy to remember.
 * So, we're at the bottom of the exciting stuff, and something is still missing from the race. Something fun and enticing that's usable for a lot of different characters, usable at a lot of levels and really speaks to the flavor of the race. Rough suggestion off the top of my head: Cat Flip: So like, she can wiggle and maneuver, allowing her to get up from a prone position as a swift action without provoking attacks of opportunity (useful perhaps, but not particularly fun since it's situational).
 * Getting to the end here, I gotta bring up a couple last things. The name "cattine", really, that's the best you could come up with? I know that sounds mean, and it does serve the purpose of saying "hey, we got a cat race here", but it just feels uninspired. Feel free to defend your choice. Also, reading the description, they don't sound like Merle from Escaflowne to me at all. Anyways, that was far too much text. Hope this provides some help though. --Ganteka Future 20:05, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Lots of good suggestions in there and I did use some of them. Merle was the original inspiration for the species but they have evolved into their own thing as I was writing them up. Was never my intention to try and recreate Merle's race.


 * As to the name, yes I kind of royally flubbed on that one. Still drawing a blank as to a better one though I wonder if it would be too late to change them since the species has been on the net for a number of years now.Krahazik 21:16, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The Pantheren (3.5e Race) may be a good inspiration. Scent is not a skill, it is an ability that can be gained by spells, powers or feats. What kept jump and spot from your racial skill list? Abilities must be in incumbents of two (2 or 4). Natural weapon is only a boon for the first few levels, and then it fails. Perhaps something that ranks with level (even though I abhor the ability – let us see if we can get it to work); a possible alternative would be: they gain a 1d4 ranking bonus to all natural attacks. Cats fall is unclear; one could amend it by mixing the ability with leap of the cat – by giving a bonus to all jump or tumble checks (which would make it much cleaner). Fluff needs a lot of work. (A side request would ask in what manner do they not look feline?)


 * I will patiently wait for you figure out why feline form fails.--Franken Kesey 22:01, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * I am not sold on cats having a good sense of smell. I almost would consider giving them a hindrance to smell. The region is not particularly exquisite in cats. Now hearing and sight are more their forte and I ponder why there is not a strong ability related to either. The leap of the cat is much better! Cats Fall: 1) how does it interact with other forms of Slow Fall; 2) tumble check sounds more appropriate; and 3) ‘then’ would be a better modifier to replace ‘and’ in the final sentence – ‘then takes only half of the unbuffed falling damage. Natural Weapons: 1) the second, third and fourth sentences are unnecessary (it is assumed); 2) shouldn’t the bite attack do slightly higher damage than the claw? 3) Are the paws bludgeoning when retracted? 4) noting the dexterity common in cats, is the critical chance low? --Franken Kesey 00:16, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

A Note on Ratings
Don't delete them. If you've made significant changes to the article, we can modify the template so that the ratings aren't counted, but they stay there and remain visible. --Ganteka Future 20:17, 16 August 2012 (UTC)


 * It looks like you're deleted your article info. While I can delete this page for you, I must ask: are you sure?  Cause from looking at the talk page it looks like you were well on your way of making it a better article. -- Eiji-kun 01:11, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Since The Update
First off, again, you need a proofreader. Either get a friend or someone here from the wiki to give it a thorough scrubbing to pick out all those weird errors and fill in gaps (when intent can be inferred from the text). Heck, I'd do it personally if you'd ask. It is shaping up though. The race is starting to kinda remind me of Puss In Boots (as voiced by Antonio "I'm also the Nasonex bee" Banderas), and that's not a bad thing at all. Anyways, let's look at the mechanics and hopefully keep this short today.

We're gonna skip right down to "Cats Grace". First off, I suspect that should read "Cat's Grace", which is just an example of why you need a proofreader. They already get a Dexterity bonus, so why tack on an extra bonus to Reflex saves?

"Leap of the Cat" is awkward, clunky and poorly worded. The +10 bonus seems kinda silly but whatever, it's the wording that's problematic. Let's say I roll a natural 5 on my check and add my ranks, bonuses from spells, masterwork tools and magic items to get a 4 bajillion modifier to make a High Jump as per the Jump skill. Whoop, reading that cattine rule, I'm limited to just five times the character's height as my maximum (the problem here being that what may have been intended as flavor text gets caught up in the mechanics. The Hop Up part is fine for flavor (since it's not particularly commonly used).

"Always Armed" suffers some problems brought up elsewhere as well. I'm just gonna write out what you should do to try and save some time, though not using the silly example name:
 * I'm an Animal, Baby!: Cattine gain the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. While unarmed attacks may be made with any part of creature's body, a cattine can deal different damage by extending his retractable claws (as a free action) or by baring his fangs against an opponent. With his extended claws, he deals 1d6 slashing damage (19-20/×2) on an unarmed strike. With his teeth, he deals 1d4 slashing, bludgeoning and piercing (19-20/×2). These attacks count as masterwork weapons and may be enchanted as manufactured weapons.

There, easy on players as possible. Bites deal slightly less damage but deal all your basic weapon damage types (as per natural attack bites), plus since a character's hands might be full, it always leaves the bite as a back-up option. You may want to add a clause about disallowing certain weapon enchantments (like throwing, returning, dancing...) that might result in weirdness.

"Feline Form" really should work off of SRD:Alternate Form with a "these are the modifications" clause. Why make it take 1 minute? What would be the advantage in combat to suddenly shift as a standard action that you otherwise wouldn't just walk around in cat form all the time?

Lastly, why do you want it to be Level Adjustment +1? Answer: You don't. Don't make it LA+1. You also need to put ECL on the bottom there. ECL is the LA plus racial HD (and is a minimum of 1, since that's the minimum level of playability since you need to have HD and stuff). Since you don't have racial HD, and if you drop that LA, it would just be ECL 1. --Ganteka Future 00:27, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Subtype Issues
Shouldn't this get the Anthro subtype...? It seems strange to me that it doesn't. --Luigifan18 (talk) 23:17, 26 October 2012 (UTC)