Talk:Veles Missile (3.5e Spell)

Balance
No save, no touch, ranged harm is probably Very High and might be a bit low level as a level 6 spell. --Foxwarrior (talk) 20:02, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * ...I had a sneaking suspicion of that... Thanks, I'll adjust it to level 7. --Luigifan18 (talk) 20:12, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
 * But as a side note, the Slavic Spells are all exclusive to followers of the Slavic pantheon. Therefore, because they're not something that any spellcaster can use, they should be exceptionally strong for their level. --Luigifan18 (talk) 03:09, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
 * That statement implies that following the Slavic pantheon is an investment. If Slavs get better spells, why not be a Slav? --Foxwarrior (talk) 03:15, 18 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Balance by "drawback" has a long and storied history of not working well. Balance by "restricted access without drawback" (as suggested here) has a slightly worse one. Like Fox suggests, why would you not just play a Slav? If they're the "bad guys" in your story and not available for play, why do they need better stuff for their level than everyone else? Why not give them different stuff at an appropriate for anyone level, and just have them be slightly stronger than you previously planned? - Tarkisflux Talk 03:41, 18 October 2012 (UTC)


 * ...They have a slight advantage, but they're not unbeatable. For instance, Veles missile still gets stopped by shield. And other religious organizations, like the Catholics, have their own advantages... I haven't worked out the details yet, but the Slavs lost the last time around. Basically, there's the spells everyone can cast, and then there are a few specialist spells that can provide a little something extra. (And speaking of the Slavic Spells, I want feedback on Rod's boon, axe of Perun, and Veles serpent.) --Luigifan18 (talk) 04:49, 18 October 2012 (UTC)


 * ...Blocked by shield is not an effective drawback for a spell that will do, on average, 12.5 damage per caster level to a single target. Nor is the expensive focus requirement, because it's cheap as free at that level. Broaches of shielding aren't effective either, as this just blows right through them and buys you an extra round. This is a die, no save, spell that makes the power word spells sad. Further, if everyone has the same sorts of advantages, albeit different ones, then there's no need to put anything restricted at a lower spell level than it actually deserves. I don't know why you don't just fluff harm up as a spell preferred by these clerics and then give them a boosted version of harm with range, i.e. this one, that they use exclusively.


 * It would also save you from needing to use a custom range progression, which is kind of annoying as one more thing to calculate. And also taking a wizard spell and putting it on the druid and cleric list, which is kind of weird from a class fluff separation stand. - Tarkisflux Talk 05:14, 18 October 2012 (UTC)


 * But this spell isn't meant to be buffed-up harm, it's meant to be buffed-up magic missile. Still, the damage is a little too hardcore, so I'll lower it back down to 4d4 per missile. And perhaps a stronger brooch of shielding can be made... I'll also raise the focus price a bit. (And btw, it's available to druids because Veles (and the entire Slavic pantheon, for that matter) is closely associated with nature.) --Luigifan18 (talk) 13:52, 18 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Harm deals 10 per caster level, but requires a successful melee touch attack and allows a save for half. Your revised missile now does an average of 10 per caster level (that you can spread around, but I don't know why you would do that) with no touch attack (melee or otherwise) and no save. Which looks a lot like a buffed version of harm because clerics already got that. Sure, it's fluffed like a buffed MM, but that's also weird. MM is an explicitly arcane only spell that you have now given to the divine classes because "it's the god of magic who does it". Which I'm sort of on-board with for domain spells, particularly when they get the non-buffed version on the spell, but not general list spells even with the restriction of "must worship this god". That restriction works for spells that are originally or primarily cleric or druid, but not cross theme spells IMO.


 * So while I'm sort of onboard with the effect now (it probably needs a ranged touch attack and a shorter range, or a save for half, or to be a higher level because none of the restrictions are much more than speed bumps), I really don't care for the fluff of it. I don't understand why you would go grab an arcane spell and buff it up and give it to the divine casters when you have an existing divine spell that is similar to your final result you could grab instead. Are there religious wizard things going on in the setting that would add context to this? - Tarkisflux Talk 18:17, 18 October 2012 (UTC)


 * To be honest, I never saw Veles Missile as similar to harm until you brought it up. However, it was originally level 6 for sorcerers and wizards - I intended for the spell to be easier for arcane spellcasters than divine ones. It's also easier for druids than for clerics, because Veles is closely associated with nature and the earth. (Nonetheless, I'm going to raise the spell level for druids and clerics once I'm done here.)


 * But there is context for why clerics and druids use it. The main antagonist of my campaign, (in case you're wondering, she's a Ukranian), is first and foremost a sorceress; however, as her primary goal is the restoration of the Slavic pantheon to its former glory, many of her followers are clerics or druids. Also, all of the Slavic spells are available to wizards, sorcerers, druids, and clerics because of the aforementioned links with nature. However, several of them weren't originally available to sorcerers and wizards - Mysto's just a genius, and managed to master the Slavic Spells despite being the wrong sort of spellcaster, then devised a way for other sorcerers and wizards to do the same. (Oh, and being a woman born in the late 15th century with a very sexist father, she's completely self-educated, for reasons that should be rather obvious. The campaign takes place in the present-day... as for how Mysto's still alive in the 21st century, despite being a human, I'll explain that shortly.)


 * Heck, the reason Mysto's the antagonist is that she's utterly convinced that she can't succeed in restoring her gods to power unless she utterly destroys the god who toppled them, Yawheh (aka the God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.) And she believes that to do that, she must completely and utterly purge the world of His followers - thus, her goal is to murder every single Jew, Christian, and Muslim in existence. The fact that her mother, Reneé Majora - an extremely skillful mage in her own right, and Mysto's primary role model - was murdered by a fanatical Catholic may have something to do with this. Never mind that Altair, the Catholic in question, was an utter asshat who'd kill anyone who he merely suspected of the tiniest bit of heresy, to the point that even Yawheh - who is very, very patient and forgiving, to an extent that mortal minds simply cannot fathom - got fed up with his antics and cast him out of Heaven. Mysto already disliked the Catholic church for mistreating her family, suppressing (or, in some cases, absorbing and distorting) her cultural traditions, and treating her gods like they were demons. Altair, however, took the Church's doctrine against witches (read: arcane spellcasters) way too far, and he actually was trying to wipe the Majora family out completely - not just Reneé, but Mysto and her brother Mysta as well! This display of the very worst the Catholic Church was capable of drove Mysto over the deep end, and she went and made 48 Horcruxes so she'd be able to avenge the losses her people had suffered and guide them to a new era of greatness. ...Yes, you read that right, she made 48 Horcruxes. If you read Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, you'd know that this act is way on the "evil" end of the alignment scale. So, basically, Mysto has become the anti-Altair - a fanatical pagan who wants to exterminate everyone who she sees as a threat to her church. The Catholic Church's champion, Anita Belnades (who, by the way, was Altair's rival and a descendant of pagan witches herself), had to seal Mysto away to stop her genocidal ambitions, and Mysto's only just managed to break out of the plane they imprisoned her in (which, by the way, is the Torn World - and, yes, Mysto spent roughly 400 years as Giratina's chew toy, which has made her even more violently enraged than she was before).


 * Anyways, as to how this is all relevant... Veles Missile is one of Mysto's primary spells, but it's also meant to be castable by his other close followers - namely the clerics and druids. Mysto's basically the head priest of a huge pagan church (even though she's not a cleric herself), and thus she employs a lot of clerics in her campaign to exterminate Anita's descendants. To help her followers wipe out her enemies, Mysto made a special deal with Veles to enable any cleric or druid who worships him to use Veles Missile, even though it's primarily an arcane spell. (Veles doesn't quite condone or agree with a lot of Mysto's actions, nor the fact that she constantly tries to establish peace between him and Perun, but since she's dedicated her eternal life to restoring him (and the rest of the Slavic gods) to a position of cosmic power, he still looks out for her interests.) --Luigifan18 (talk) 20:02, 18 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Ok. What, you wrote a wizard spell that divine casters also get (and can probably get at the same spell level) in a specific campaign setting with a particular history. Which makes sense, but that doesn't make it appropriate for a general list Cleric or Druid spell outside of that campaign setting, because it's an arcane spell without the extenuating circumstances. So I'd suggest pulling it from their lists, and just adding it back in the campaign setting specifically.


 * Which leaves us with a 7th level arcane spell that will likely be used to single target focus fire people to death. It's reasonably good against single target PCs, but less good against single target monsters because of the different hit dice setups. So it's a reasonable evocation for the level, and you could maybe boost the missiles back up for 5d4 (maybe, I'm kind of on the fence for that at this level). I'd probably boost it to Long range and leave it as a Wizard 7, making sure to tag it as Very High balance in the article. It's a bit better than finger of death in that setup, being longer range and dealing straight damage instead of allowing a save and being suppressed by different spells, but it's probably a reasonable single target evocation for the level (having the standard spreadable damage issues at this level). - Tarkisflux Talk 18:58, 19 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Another option is to make these spells available via a feat for non-arcane classes. --Havvy (talk) 20:24, 19 October 2012 (UTC)