Talk:Griffon Rider (3.5e Prestige Class)

Prerequisites and Notes
you can qualify for this class at 17th level. that alone makes it not so good. i think the pre reqs needs to be nerfed--NameViolation 22:03, April 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, the skill rank prerequisites are silly, unless it just means the skill modifier, which would be sillier. Also, note that the page title is correct and all reference to the DnD magical beast should be spelled griffon within the article (as is currently not the case, mysteriously). --Ganteka Future 23:20, April 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hehe, i will fix the error with griffon its just my computer for some odd reason is registering it as an incorrect spelling and is auto-correcting it, which i will fix now. I also made the requirements somewhat lessened, and I added in one more bit of detail for paladins or blackguards who become griffin riders as well. - Vestrione Seshione 00:14, April 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * all done with everything, let me know the verdict. - Vestrione Seshione 00:39, April 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * I had a little talk with some of my friends and found a couple of small edits. First the momentous cleave attack should gain damage for extra height on the attack instead of a bonus to the attack, as it would hit the enemy harder but it wouldn't improve the chances of a hit. Second, the Griffon Rider's Griffon requires more dexterity for its combat maneuvers, so the Strength adjustment was changed to a dexterity adjustment. The last edit was clarification on the Griffon's feat progression, because the griffon can gain feats as well, which allows for more flexibility in the griffon for the player to mess with. Vestrione Seshione 23:00, April 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * The Momentous Cleave ability is a little messy as written. You might want to separate it into two abilities, Cleave and Charge, so you can make clear what rules go where. In addition, there is no weapon I'm aware of, including natural attacks, with a critical multiplier of less then x2, so the line about critical multipliers is unnecessary. You might also have it require a DC 20 ride check, where failure negates the attack and failure by 5 or more causes a fall for the griffon. Aerial Sneak Attack, as written, is EXACTLY like rogue sneak-attack - is this intentional, or is some aerial component meant to apply? I don't know if a rider and his mount automatically flank, but you might want to just replace this ability with a synergistic damage bonus when both creatures attack the same target in a round. Hive Mind is an odd name; you might try something with Bond in it instead. - Viatos 03:19, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

why does the momentus cleave do 6d6 +20? where does the arbitrary + 20 come from? does the weapon figue in at all? if i have a +4 vorpal sword of DM bribing, does the +4 and vorpal apply (even without the DM bribing :P). WHat about str mod? does my str mod apply? is it supposed to add 6d6+20? thats weird. nothing really adds static damage. --NameViolation 03:24, April 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * now that you note it, I picked 20 because I figured anyone hit by an attack like that would be dealt some serious damage, regardless of a bad roll. But then again, its dice because when you hit you could have messed up in some way or other making it less lethal. I suppose i should make it a static +5 to keep a better minimum and replace the 15 with a combined strength mod, or if you have weapon finesse you can use your dex mod. + the griffons strength mod. Also, for the damage being the 6d6, that is added on top of the weapon damage since it is from from the momentum the griffon is putting into your attack on that enemy(since it is giving up all of its other attacks as well). The +4 mod from your weapon applies as does any extra effects you have that coincide with your weapon(such as vorpal in your case, but also poisons or other such fun things) or any other miscellaneous bonuses(like true strike or cleave, however if using cleave the next enemy you hit must be directly in front of you and if the momentous strike had bonus damage from starting the charge at a farther distance, that bonus damage is lost.)Vestrione Seshione 21:26, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Balance
What makes this fit the rogue-level of balance? Could you provide an SGT? Say, level 15, since the first level you could take this class is level 10? --Ghostwheel 03:46, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Okay, for the balance I chose rogue because during the discussions i had on the class with my friends it turns out that when placed in combination with a class like paladin, the griffon rider excels in attack capability and can even surpass monsters of equivalent CR due to the power stacking capabilities for his mount. It can be difficult to pull off, but when used with appropriate tactics the griffon rider can be quite devastating. Tactically, the griffon rider also has great advantage over fighters and other land-based classes. A fully developed griffon rider will eventually be able to strike a fighter type character of equivalent CR without him even having a chance of fighting back, which definitively makes the class stronger than fighter type. (EXAMPLE: A griffon rider using a bow can have on his turn the griffon do a spring attack just into range for him to shoot the fighter and then spring out again so the fighter cannot even take a shot. Also, the ability to fly also puts it at an advantage above any classes of fighter level or lower.) As for the clarifications, I will get those in order right now. I understand the confusion on it, and I will also clarify aerial sneak attacks.


 * By the level that one can enter this class, just about any character can buy a griffon, a pegasus, or in some cases, a dragon to ride. Monsters at that level also often have some way of attacking characters at range; mind doing a level 15 SGT on it? --Ghostwheel 23:46, April 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * Holy cow, that would be a mess of an effort! Gaging from how the rules on an SGT are explained, do you want me to test it with just the class or the more advanced version as the full character? Either way, it will take me several hours to test the shell(15 levels in griffon rider, ignoring the entry requirements) or the fully developed character with the preferred startup combo. (Lvl 10 paladin then the 5 ranks in griffon rider) Vestrione Seshione 00:22, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * I can't help but feel that this PRC is weaker than the Aglarondan Griffonrider found in Unapproachable East (3.0 Forgetten Realms sourcebook). Perhaps it just the entry requirements, that one can be taken three levels before the other. --Tavis McCricket 00:25, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * @Vestrione: Since one can't actually take 15 levels in the class, just write up X 9 / Griffon Rider 6? And while you can provide a sketchy writeup of a character detailing important things, you don't need to actually test it against every challenge. Just based on a rough guess that most people could agree with write what you think the outcome would be when facing the 15 SGT challenges? Loss, 50/50, and win are acceptable outcomes, depending on how you think the fight would go. --Ghostwheel 00:50, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Hmm, I haven't heard of that one, but I clarified some of its abilities and such, and for the most part in the SGT for most of the encounters the griffon rider is very likely to win them. I did most of it through logic and i basically looked at their capability to hit a level 15 base griffon rider equipped with a bow and basic armour. A couple of the harder ones would be the duel with the white dragon which could go either way. Also, the battle with a dozen medusa archers would be hard to pull off, mainly because of the chance for critical hits as they otherwise have great difficulty in getting in any hits on the griffon rider(assuming without infinite deflect arrows, but as it is an automatically gained feat they would be obliterated.). The demons posed some slight threats, but didn't have anything that could significantly threaten the griffon rider. I didn't test the ones without links though, as i do not possess any of the books, they are at my friends house which is where we tend to play. Aside from the medusas, all the encounters below CR 13 were certain victories, even if the griffon rider was played as a fighter type.(btw, i can rerun the test using my level 10 paladin sheet and give him 5 levels in griffon rider and see how that would probably go as well) Vestrione Seshione 00:54, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * (grumble edit conflict) The level 15 SGT with 5 levels of this class on top of 10 levels of a rogue level class (I'm actually not sure if pally qualifies as rogue off the top of my head) would probably be best. Or what Ghost said. And it's really not that much work. If you don't feel like sorting character feats and gear (and I actually don't think you should) you just compare your vague numbers and class abilities to the situations in the list, justify why they would be able to do them or not (or if they could do them with the right gear and feats), tally up and look at what you've got. - TarkisFlux 00:56, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Could you detail them out in order? Something like...
 * Encounter - [Detail on what might happen] - Win
 * Something like that for each encounter, one at a time? --Ghostwheel 00:59, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

SGT Results

 * A Marut-uses up its daily uses of chain lightning on first attack, then attempts to airwalk to engage the griffon rider in the air. Use greater speed to advantage and attack from range with a bow to finish him. Also can engage in aerial combat with a longsword, 3-5 momentous cleaves will finish him quickly. -likely win


 * Wouldn't the Chain Lightning have a good chance of killing the griffon outright? How would both the griffon and its rider protect themselves from Circle of Death? --Ghostwheel 02:04, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * No creature of 9 or more HD can be affected, and Hit Dice that are not sufficient to affect a creature are wasted. (circle of death ruled out)Saving Throw: 	 Reflex half (chain lightning) also, with improved evasion the damage is automatically halved. The griffon has a d10 for health and constitution of +3, which at level 15 taking half would give it 75 +15 hp, then adding in the bonus HD it would gain about 6d8, at half thats anoth 24 +18 hp, making a total of 132 hp for average rolls. 7d6 damage cannot even halve that much hp or deal massive damage. The one use of chain lightning a day is now gone. The force wall is a pain, but it doesnt have sufficient range to affect the griffon rider. Vestrione Seshione 02:58, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * You sum up all of your battles with the same game plan: I plink them at range. Some of these enemies have DR that a paladin can't overcome (the Marut has DR 15/Chaotic), and with a longbow, the best damage you could hope for is 1d8+10+elemental (+5 bow with +5 arrows).  Also, the Marut has fast healing 10, so it'd patch up the little damage that got through it's DR (You can't smite it, so at best you'd deal 3 physical damage per hit, plus whatever elemental damage your weapon carries).  Meanwhile, he can offer himself 100% protection from you using Wall of Force, either forcing you to wait for quite a while as he heals up from the damage you dealt, or, he delays his action to attack you when you swoop down under the wall to execute a charge.  This is assuming he doesn't just dimension door right in front of you so that you fly dead into him...--Tavis McCricket 14:20, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Good points, and checking through his abilities he can also airwalk. At this point, the Griffon Rider should put his focus onto unleashing momentous cleave attacks. Once the daily use of Force wall is used, the Griffon Rider can do these attacks unhindered. If the Marut Dimension Doors in front of the Griffon, use a slam attack to knock the Marut out of the air, or pull up 90 degrees and hit him with a flyby attack. Also, the attacks should be focused to hit the marut halfway down the full flightpath, so even with the attack of opportunity generated by the move, he will be out of range to be attacked. The Griffon Rider should be able to maintain an advantage this way. However, the Marut has a high enough bonus to attack to best any ride checks to cancel his attacks, so hopefully he wont be able to break the griffons AC, which at 10 level pally 5 GR, should be an AC of 36(also including basilisk hide armour w/out mage armour enchanting) With a basic +4 mage armour, it would be an AC of 40 to break. At much higher levels, the ride check would make an excellent means of defense, but if something can break that AC I would say it can make a 50/50 engagement at the least. The BAB on the momentous cleave would be about 37(15 for the rider + 22 for the griffon) which can normally hit the Marut. However, this battle may end up a fight to see who can take the most punches. The griffon's spell resistance 15 will come in handy from the levels in pally, and he should be at about 162 hp. Another strategy is go punch for punch and spam the improved pounce ability, and hope that if enough attacks are thrown at him some will stick enough to kill him. However, that is a completely 50/50 fight from there. Vestrione Seshione 22:46, April 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * you cant enchant armor with mage armor. its either armor or mage armor, do you mean magic armor? like +1 or +2 armor? also is there a page for basilisk hide? 9 ac, max dex +6, +10 to being a mary-sue? --NameViolation 04:47, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * +7 natural is the hide of basilisks, my bad. I believe in one of the monster manuals it was +9, but going by the SRD it is +7. So basically the hide of the basilist can make +7 armour, the +6 dex is basically as the highest dexterity allowed by light armour, as basilisk hide is just a tougher form of hide armour, and probably somewhat heavier, but not into the medium armour class. Also, what on earth is a mary-sue? Btw, armour can be enchanted by a mage, by casting mage armour on the basilisk hide and then casting permanency on it. Also, if needed, a character of that level can purchase +4 bracers of armour. In fact, that would be a good idea, buy two pairs of those to put on each of my griffons legs and increase his armour to +8. Vestrione Seshione 01:24, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * but hide armor is medium armor, not light so heaver than medium armor with out being medium armor?. no light armor gives +7 ac. it tops out at 4 (or 5 with mithral breast plate). even Full plate only gives + 8 ac. also mage armor and armor don't stack. its +4 from mage armor OR the armors ac bonus, not both. and no you can't "mage armor the hide". you need specific feats (craft magic arms and armor) and the bonus is based on Caster level. its not "i cast a spell and add 4 ac". you only get the 4 ac if you don't have better armor on. there is no way non-magical light armor should give that much ac. Leather is light, but it doesn't have near the protection. also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue, long story short the "i can do everything" character. its the ultimate fan-wank. "This guy i made up is the strongest, fastest, most unkillable-ist, character that every hero respects and every girl wants" is a mary-sue. --NameViolation 01:34, April 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, pretty much the idea of "mage armor + permanency" on armor has three entirely separate problems. Mage armor can only be cast on a creature, so you can't even cast it on an object. Its bonus is an "armor bonus", not an "enhancement bonus to armor", and wouldn't stack with the armor's innate armor bonus even if you have both (which makes it worthless unless you're wearing something less protective than a chain shirt). Also, it isn't in any of the lists of spells that you can actually make permanent through permanency (which you might be able to argue against if they weren't in the exact same book). --Quantumboost 01:45, April 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * First, I am most definitely not trying to make a mary-sue character. What I was asked was how would a griffon rider respond to each of the following situations, which i am trying to come up with a winning startegy, as any rogue does, and play it to win or get a good strategy of winning. Second, the griffon rider alone is highly susceptible to magic attacks and effects, considering the attack would be from an equivalent leveled wizard. Almost all defense against the magic attacks is stemming from the 10 levels in paladin, if a rogue or ranger were to take this class just about any mage class could come in and have a damn good chance of winning, unless the attacks had reflex based DC's or fortitude saves. If the wizard opened with one of those, the griffon rider would probably make the saves and come in for a close up attack to quickly kill the wizard, however a will save would be quite difficult to make(probably capping out at +8 total, meaning a better than 50% chance of the wizard succeeding on one of those. It just so happens that the paladin and griffon rider make a nice combo class.) A good rogue could also take this class down, in a probably 50/50 battle. Hmm, and so hide is indeed medium armour, now that i look it up and i will lower the maximum dex to +4 to fit and it will be medium armour, however it remains a +7 and anyone can purchase it. btw, could you give me a source saying that magical bonuses to armour from something like bracers of armour only apply if you are unarmored or your armour is not that high? The way I was understanding the rule books and character sheets is that magical items like that give a magical bonus to AC. I also won't deny the craft magic arms and armour feat, but that is why you pay a wizard to do it. although, mage armour is not in the list anyways, thus rendering my arguement on that now useless. So if I understand what you are saying though, the armour would need to be magically crafted WITH an extra enhancement bonus? and then would that negate the base armour that was being crafted just leaving the magic armour? the way you are saying seems a little confusing... and if you don't believe that non-magical armour can get a +7, just take a look at the basilisks natural armour bonus(aka as the toughness of its hide).Vestrione Seshione 02:15, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

its the same reason 2 shields don't stack, or why wearing leather armor under full plate doesn't give you an extra + to ac. its in the stacking modifiers rules, its like you cant cas t bulls strength 10 times t oget +40 str. and no, adding a bonus wouldn't negate anything. +1 full plate gives 9 ac for example (8normal, +1 magical). Bonus' don't stack with bonus's of the same name (except dodge bonus'). for example a ring of protection+2 gives +2 deflection bonus to ac. it stacks with Armor, shield, dex, profane, sacred, insight, and a few others, but not with another ring of protection (or shield of faith, which is also a deflection bonus). with bonus' of the same name you take the higher number. so the +7 over rides the +4, however the 4 would apply to your incorporeal touch ac (since its a force effect). and jut because a basilisk gets 7 points of natural armor doesn't meant thats how it translates as armor. look at dragon hide armor. its same stats as normal armor, despite dragons natural ac bonus'. why a basilisk with lower ac than a dragon would make better armor is beyond me. --NameViolation 02:35, April 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * OK, nevermind, i will get rid of the basilisks armour all together, make it masterwork breastplate and take approprite speed and dex restrictions. It still gives some decent AC, and a +4 to dex. I just talked to my DM as well and he explained the basics so i get it now, i think. he basically said the same thing lol For the purpose of the SGT i will get rid off all mage armour and/or enhancement bonuses. That shouldn't change too much, and it seems the battles average at 50/50, a far cry from being a mary-sue in any case. Vestrione Seshione 02:45, April 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * while i have your attention, can i get you to address my questions about "momentus cleave" up above --NameViolation 03:00, April 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * A warparty of Cloud Giants.-throw rocks, griffon rider stays out of range and shoots them with bow. If accompanied by enemy griffons, engage in aerial combat out of range of cloud giants to finish them off and then use ranged attacks on the cloud giants. If they use their mists for defense, wait until the mist clears before finishing them off -likely win


 * The cloud giants have Levitate and Fog Cloud + Obscuring Mist to stop the rider from simply attacking them out of range. How would he deal with all the rocks flying at him, each dealing 2d8+12 damage? --Ghostwheel 02:04, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Easy, when the first rocks come, fly farther up and away and wait for the mist to dissipate. levitate is not that fast of movement either, outrunning them is cheesecake.Vestrione Seshione 02:58, April 21, 2010 (UTC) Also, to attack the griffon rider they will need to leave their wonderful obscuring mist. Not to mention they cannot even see through it, as it is not stated that they have any such ability to do so. Vestrione Seshione 03:10, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Giants far outranged you with rocks, and a 7th level Sorcercer can Greater Invis a couple of giants within the mist, then send them out against you without your knowledge. It's a numbers game, but their's are larger and more numerous.--Tavis McCricket 14:20, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Unless he can invis the rocks too, I would say a spot check is in order to see the rocks coming to maintain full defense. It would be quite difficult for them to break an AC of 40 as well, however getting hit would be quite bad. If he survives the first rock volley, the best move would be to dive into the obscuring mist, and then use the griffon's scent ability to target where the enemies are and then to unleash flyby attacks in the mist. This ability can also be used to know the general direction of the invis enemies, so they cannot catch the griffon rider flat footed.


 * A Mature Adult White Dragon.-dragon opens with cone attack, likely dodge with improved evasion, attack with momentous strike then aerial combat maneuvering, griffon outmaneuvers to remain behind the dragon while using a longbow to attack and finish off the dragon, possibility of dragon being able to land some flyby attacks which could knock the rider off the griffon or break the griffons wings, either way possibly killing the griffon rider and his griffon -50/50


 * What would the griffon rider do if instead the dragon charged (x2 speed) to grapple the griffon or its rider? --Ghostwheel 02:04, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Depending on how far apart they were, I would say a reflexive 90 degree turn would get them out of the way. If the dragon was close enough to succeed on the grapple, better hope for some good rolls. As I said, 50/50. If that dragon grapples anybody, even a rogue would be in dire straights. Vestrione Seshione 02:58, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Reflexive 90 degree turn? Isn't a feat required to dodge a charge?  Even them, does that put you out of it's threat range (that is, does it move you 15ft from your starting square)?  I'm quite sure you can't delay an action to take a move action.  Also, the dragon's breath weapon is relatively weak, and I doubt it would open with it (or use it at all) against two targets.  How can the rider contend with an enemy that can easily travel 400ft or more in a round?--Tavis McCricket 14:20, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, the dragon is limited to 45 degree turns, so following basic geometry, the rider should make a 90 degree turn perpendicular to the dragons path, probably left or right, as moving up and down have their own set of problems. From there, the rider would just need to tweak 45 degree adjustments to keep out of the flightpath of the dragon and keep shooting him with arrows, using power shot plenty of times as well. The dragon shouldn't even be able to come within 15 feet, otherwise the griffon rider isn't tweaking the angling enough. I am not sure which feat that would be for dodging a charge, but theoretically if you dodge the charge the dragon should still have the rest of his speed to finish up, putting more than 15 feet with them even as he decelerates to try to turn around and catch up.Vestrione Seshione 22:46, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * A Cornugon.-enemy can fly and use magic, but magic will run out before fatal, just use ranged aerial attacks to finish him -likely win


 * What about the Greater Teleport at will? If the Cornugon's flitting around the battlefield (or even appears in the air right next to the griffonrider), what can he do?


 * That would result in the rider pulling off an attack action on the cornugon and the griffon can do a flyby attack on top of that, and continue his merry way. However, if he can attack directly after teleportation, then there might be a little trouble. He would need to make the save against the tail attack, but then he could do his own attack turn. there is some possibility for defeat, probably enough if the cornugon was played right to make a 50/50 challenge.Vestrione Seshione 02:58, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * A Gelugon and his Iron Golem bodyguard.- basically same strategy as a cornugon, except killing the iron golem too -likely win


 * Between its Ice Storm, Ice Wall, and Slow abilities, the Gelugon can probably cause the griffon to stall and fall. What will the rider do at that point? --Ghostwheel 02:04, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * First, a DC 20 ride check to pull out of the fall. A griffon rider should be able to make that, otherwise he didn't meet the entry requirements and put in points appropriate to a mounted combatician. Dealing with the ice wall would be a reflex save, the griffon at 15th level should have at least a 15. That means at least a 4 would need to be rolled, or a 5 taking the -1 from slow. Also, with improved evasion, how would that apply to a failed roll against ice wall? Ice storm would be a pain, however the griffons spell resistance from the paladin levels would make it negate the effects. It would be a likely win if played right, but with bad luck it could be a 50/50 match-up.Vestrione Seshione 02:58, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * A pair of Glabrezus -likely win


 * How would the griffonrider hit them when they constantly renew their Mirror Image spells? When they stun the griffon, causing it to fall to the ground? When they cast Confusion at will upon the griffon? --Ghostwheel 02:04, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * A glabrezus cannot fly, therefore he would never be in range to hit the griffon with power word stun. If he did hit the griffon with it in some obscure way, then there might be a lot of trouble. However that is extremely unlikely, making it still greatly in the griffon rider's favour. Against confusion, the griffon has spell resistance to overcome, however if it is overcome then a will save is in order. If that fails, the die rolls are still in the favour of the griffon rider, because the griffon rider can still attack the enemy even when the griffon is fleeing or doing any of the other actions. Due to hive mind, they are basically the same self and the griffon won't attack him if the die lands on that percent anyway.Vestrione Seshione 02:58, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * He can greater teleport and reverse gravity to either put himself in range, or attempt to crash your griffon. Also, Chaos Hammer and Unholly Blight are cast at a 240ft ranged, both of which he can do at will to hit you and your mount for solid damage (while he greater teleports into range).  Can you survive those spells being spammed through combat?  What if he greater teleports onto your griffon, and initiates a grapple?--Tavis McCricket 14:20, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Reverse gravity can be negated by flying creatures, making the DC 20 ride check to save from the initial fall will put the griffon rider back into his original status and technically even higher in the air, since he was falling up. The rider's will save is a total of 12, so making the save DC is possible, and if not damage is halved and the effect of slow or sickness negated due to aerial improved evasion. The same goes for the griffon, except with a total of 8 in will and spell resistance of 15 negates just about all of the other damage. If the attacks had their rolls maximized, it would be 40 damage, cut in half makes it 20, and spell resistance 15 makes the damage now 5. They would need at least 30 of these attacks to get anywhere near killing just my griffon. at 9th level my pally has 95 health. This battle is not in their favour.Vestrione Seshione 22:46, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * A harem of Succubi. -almost certain win


 * Agreed. --Ghostwheel 02:04, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Twenty Dire Bears.-shoot at them with arrows from the sky -certain win


 * Agreed. --Ghostwheel 02:04, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * A dozen Medusa archers mounted on Hellcats.-Medusas open with shooting arrows, with a dozen there is a good chance of making a crit, although most likely won't be confirmed due to AC. Utilize pounce and flyby attacks to take advantage of their weakness to melee, can make most related saves, and staying just above the hellcats to keep them from attacking. When medusas finished, finish hellcats with ranged arrows -50/50


 * Every round you have a 46% chance of rolling a one against their petrifying gazes; I'd call that a probable loss, since you're not able to kill them all in one round. How would you deal with that? --Ghostwheel 02:04, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Check my last post on the bottom.Vestrione Seshione 02:58, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * A forest made out of lava and infested with hostile fire-element dire badgers.-fly to avoid lava and use arrows to kill them badgers -certain win


 * I'd say the forest itself is made of fire, and both the griffon and the rider are constantly taking fire damage. What can you do to negate that? --Ghostwheel 02:04, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Fly above the burning forest. I doubt the fire reaches 200 feet, where the longbow can still hit the enemies. If the encounter is such as the griffon rider will always take damage from the forest fire, then he wouldn't be there in the first place unless he is quickly passing over to get somewhere else. Which means the encounter would never have happened, however he cannot endure in a permanent fire for long anyway so eventual death would be inevitable. Vestrione Seshione 02:58, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Metagaming to beat the encounter, really? You're in the forest, you can't simply leave, so how do you win?  Reasons you can't leave?  The canopy of the forest is solid flame, and flying through it is equivalent to swimming in lava.  Or, it's so dense that even if you get through it, there is no way to target the badgers, so even if you survive and escape, you never defeated the foes involved.  How do you win then?--Tavis McCricket


 * Hehe, personally i wouldn't go into a forest like that. However, if the situation arises that i do end up stuck in a forest and i am underneath the trees and they become completely engulfed in lava-like flame, then it gets interesting. For feats, the griffon should have gained at least three more, and once making the entry requirements, I normally pick up power attack, cleave and then great cleave. So basically, I will have my griffon charge and do a full attack upon one enemy, which he almost certainly breaks his AC. on average, he should be able to deal 21 damage. Using improved pounce and power shot to gain an additional attack at +4 and +7 from the griffons strength, that first badger will be finished. They can try to break my griffons AC, but most will fail and criticals can be negated by the necessary ride checks. Then just slug it out fighting and heal whatever damage does get through with lay on hands. The main foe will be dealing with the intense heat of the burning forest, which can be lessened by dousing all the water from my canteen over myself and my griffon. Vestrione Seshione 22:46, April 21, 2010 (UTC)

(using a level 10 paladin and level 5 griffon rider, equipped with a longbow and a +1 longsword, griffon has basic armour of +5 and rider has basic armour of +4)

PS- I hate editing errors.....Vestrione Seshione 01:24, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Why are they a win? How would you survive the forest made of lava? If you kill one medusa, why wouldn't the rest of them use their gaze? What about the spell-likes of the Marut? Could you detail how the basic battle would go taking into account monster abilities? --Ghostwheel 01:19, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * The Cloud giants get a cleric or sorcerer of up to 9th level. Also, the dragon is nearly twice as fast as the griffon.  Even if your mount survives a full attack from the mature adult white (six attacks), it can't catch up on a flyby attack.  The rest are subjective, but almost ever one of those fiends has teleport without error, and some form of snare.--Tavis McCricket 01:29, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * BTW at 9th level, my paladin has a total of 14 for his fortitude save, which means even with a 1 the medusas gaze can't even touch me. Also, if i was using a rogue, my griffon's save at lvl 15 would total above 15 and it would apply to me through sharing saves. (Bonus HD increase the saves accordingly)Vestrione Seshione 01:31, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * You can crititcally fail a saving throw.--Tavis McCricket 01:34, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * fly 200 ft. (poor), Griffon Flyspeed 100ft(good) The griffon can fly AROUND the dragon, as the dragon cannot make turns like the griffon can the griffon can stay out of melee range through combat maneuvers. Check out the link on flyspeed to verify this.


 * For the demons, it cannot instantly attack after teleporting and most of their snaring abilities can be negated without even rolling, with exception to the tail attack of the cornugon. The cloud giant sorcerer is BETWEEN 4th and 7th level, which at 7th level lacks significant ability to take down the griffon rider. They could stand a chance IF it had designed all their spells for anti-air capabilities.Vestrione Seshione 01:40, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * can you show me the source for that? from the rules my group and DM have been using, you cannot critically fail a saving throw. Vestrione Seshione 01:42, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Page 136 of the 3.5 PHB, "Automatic Failures and Successes: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on a saving throw is always a failure (and may cause damage to exposed items; see Items Surviving after a Saving Throw, page 177). A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a success."--Tavis McCricket 01:49, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * if it comes to that, then it still maintains the 50/50 odds which is what i gave the encounter. Also, i believe there is a rule allowing the player to take ten on checks and saves, and if that rule is applied then there wouldn't be a problem.
 * Also, *Petrifying Gaze (Su) Turn to stone permanently, 30 feet Taking the odds into account, if the griffon rider survived the first set of petrifying gazes, he would then fight from a range using his longbow.


 * Attack 	 Shortbow  A longbow has greater range than a shortbow, now that i look at it, so even then, griffon rider has won hands down. Thanks for helping me find that! Vestrione Seshione 02:01, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * You cannot take 10 on a saving throw. You can only take 10 on certain skill checks, if you are not threatened, or at risk of harm from failure (You can take 10 on Disable Device to ruin a hinge, but you can't take 10 to disarm a volatile trap).--Tavis McCricket 02:20, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, with a longbow the griffon rider wouldn't even fly in that close to the medusas unless they could shoot at his range, which they cant because they are equipped with shortbows, so although he can't take 10, he wouldn't be in range to be hit by their abilities or attacks anyways, making it a win. Alchemists fire would be convenient to have though, and although my character has 20 vials of the stuff at all times this is for general characters. Basically it is how the player chooses to use the character, because if the player used him as a tank then he would be subject to a fighter level no matter what i did with the class. If it is played rogue style as intended, making full use of his maneuvers and range and abilities per situation, it is an extremely effective class.Vestrione Seshione 03:03, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think by now we should at least be able to agree it is a rogue level class, and if not post your arguements. However, it is 11:15 PM for me and I need to get some sleep for school tomorrow, so I will get back to this sometime tomorrow. If this class was played with all the feats and items I would have accumulated by 15th level, I can guarantee that I would almost certainly win all of these encounters. One more thing I forgot to throw in, at level 10 pally I can heal 40 points of hp with lay on hands to deal with whatever light damage they can build up on me, and I also have access to the spell cure light wounds to help out.03:19, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Could you show the actual attack modifier and damage that the griffin-rider would do most of the time, including penalties due to range? --Ghostwheel 04:05, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * As you said, with the right feats, you can make this build nearly an auto-win. I'm looking foward to seeing what you come up with.  Also, will the gear vary from encounter to encounter, or will it be the same loadout?


 * As for being rouge level, I disagree. Anything this class achieves, any class can with a flying mount.  If this is specifically meant to be a mounted archer class, try gearing more of it's abilites to that (like gaining a better version of Mounted Archery, and/or gaining Far Shot as bonus feats).  As it, it's a class with that gains a few special melee attacks, then appears to win everything at ranged neglecting melee.  What's up with that?


 * In my opinion, this class would lose a 1v1 fight with an NPC Warlock of equal level, and that is considered a solidly Fighter level class (Elditch Spear, Entropic Warding, Fell Flight, Flee the Scene, Vitrolic Blast, etc, plus UMD out teh ass). However, I think you can make this work, you just need to approach it in a more realistic manner.--Tavis McCricket 14:20, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * To Ghostwheel, Attack mod of the griffon rider(using power shot, aerial combat and aerial archery)is a total of a +20 on the first attack with no negatives, using a longbow and some enchanted arrows would deal 1d10 damage + 1d6 elemental damage per hit. When ranged attacks end up being ruled out due to ineffectiveness or the situation, then the griffon rider would engage in melee, opening with a momentous cleave starting about 60 feet from the enemy(using power shot as well) using a +1 longsword enchanted with an element, making it a total attack of 46 dealing 9d6 +20 +1d6 elemental damage. From there, the griffon would attempt a grapple. If successful, it would do a full attack with a total attack of +28(1 bite at +11 melee(total 37) doing 2d6+6 damage and 4 claw attacks w/ a +8 melee(total 34) dealing 1d4 +3 damage) and taking a -2 due to the multiattack(thanks to the multiattack feat). Then The griffon rider can use improved pounce and power shot to make 4 attacks, the first being a total attack of 25 dealing 1d8 + 1d6 elemental + 4, the second being at + 20, the third being at +15, and the fourth being at +14(+4 extra attack +1 for sword + 4 for my strength + 5 for griffons strength). The average on the full attacks would be 44 for the rider + 32 for the griffon dealing a total damage average for full attacks at 76. Thats assuming all attacks hit and did average damage. If half the attacks missed to be further on average, the average damage dealt would come to be about 38 damage. The average on momentous cleave would normally be 50 damage assuming the charge was made from 60 feet. The average on the ranged damage would be 8 damage a hit, making about 16 if half the attacks made their mark. The ranged strategy is used a lot mainly to try to minimize damage dealt on the rider by the enemies, but if they have ranged capabilities then it would be best to unload the punishment up close and personal to try and fell the other enemy first, using the bolstered AC and HP to your advantage. btw, can you give me a link to somewhere that explains the warlock? I wanna do a logic test battle against it to see how i would fare. Vestrione Seshione 00:02, April 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * The warlock, a higher-end Fighter class from the Complete Arcane, has better DPR (something like 6d6 + 2d6 from Vitriolic Blast + 2d6 from Fell Chausible, although it's one shot a round, he can Maximize/Empower it with the proper feats, and it ignores SR when he uses Vitriolic Blast) at better range (250 feet with Eldritch Spear). He negates 20% of ranged attacks (Entropic Warding lasts all battle), has a little damage reduction, and can fly and confuse you (Fell Flight and Flee the Scene). He can also ruin your day by Nauseating your mount (Noxious Blast, subject to SR) and then dropping a ton of grappling tentacles with AOE damage (Chilling Tentacles) on your head. - Viatos 05:33, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

Suggestions

 * Reduce the entry requirements, at least in regards to minimum ranks needed.
 * Remove Animal Affinity and add Mounted Archery as a requirement.
 * Offer an improved version of Mounted Archery avaialble at level 1, further reducing the penalties.
 * Removed Improved Evasion and replace it with either regular Evasion, or Improved Aerial Evasion (stipulating that the rider must be mounted on his bonded griffon to beneift). There is no reason for the class to gain Improved Evasion so easily or quickly.
 * Convert "Aerial Sneak Attack" to d6s. Give it +1d6 every 3rd level, starting at 1st (+1d6 at 1st, +2d6 at 4th, +3d6 at 7th, and +4d6 at 10th.  This way, the rider can qualify for ambush feats, should he want to take them.
 * The griffon rider PRC I told you about allows the rider to negate more and more attacks per round via Mounted Combat, up to 4 per round at 9th level. Maybe adding that in lieu of deflect arrows, to fill out the dead levels, and add more defensive options for the rider (It's a DC 15 rider check to take cover behind your mount, and you are still allowed to use Mounted Combat to negate an attack your mount is ubject to, when you take cover.  Effectively, you force the enemy to attack the mount, then use a super high ride check to counter the attack roll).
 * Give them ability similar to Plunging Shot, or what Cragtop Archers get, where they gain extra bonus damage against foes they have elevation on.

Just some ideas, not sure how much of this PRC you actually feel like changing.--Tavis McCricket 14:52, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Well, I am quite flexible with it and my goal is to create an effective class that can compete at all levels. Most of your ideas are quite logical and I have applied them all in some form or other. I kept the Griffon's aerial sneak attack the same, however i applied the change to d6's to the rider. I also added a couple more abilities to the class to support the glaringly obvious power archers can gain from a flying class. Vestrione Seshione 21:16, April 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Gravity Cannon doesn't seem very balanced. Does it really need two sources of ranged bonus damage?  This class will be attacking four or more times per round at higher levels.--Tavis McCricket 23:40, April 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * kk, I will be using the falling damage progression you posted on my talk page, since thats the basic rule on it that is what I will use. It probably is quite unbalanced so I will fix it, I just wanted to have it as a place marker and have general rule if the DnD world didn't have better one.Vestrione Seshione 23:43, April 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * "Gravity Cannon (Ex): The Griffon Rider is capable of using gravity to improve the range and power of his ranged attacks. All attacks made at a target below him gain an addition 1d6 damage for every 10 ft. he is above that enemy, starting at 30 feet up and maxing out at an additional 20d6. He also gains a +2 to hit on those attacks. Shots made at a target angled downward also gain those bonuses but cap out at 30d6(thanks to projectile motion), but his range is limited to the square root of (bow's range + distance below him). Basically, do the Pythagorean theorem to calculate the range."
 * Lol wut? I'm no math slouch, but this seems a bit over the top for in-game calculations.  That kind of stuff would involve me breaking out a calculator, or having to write it down.  Isn't there a way to work this better, I can't do square roots in my head. -- Eiji Hyrule 17:51, May 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Heck, what do you do if you're on a plane with non-euclidean geometry? Ia ia, Griphyun Ry'deth! -- Eiji Hyrule 02:52, May 11, 2010 (UTC)