Talk:Animal Evolutionist (3.5e Class)

Welcome, seekers of genetic advancement!
As of today (November 8th, 2013), this class is technically playable. All the most important rules are there and the evolutions of each animal are laid out nice and neatly. However, I'm worried about the balance point of the creatures and the personal evolutions they grant. Some (like the riding dog) clearly gain and grant superior powers to other animals (like the ape). If anyone has the time, I'd appreciate it if the community around here would give a quick critique of this class in general and some of the animal evolutions in particular. By the way, I did notice the homebrew Pokemon stuff (it's very nice)... I'd like to integrate that into this class eventually. --Nolanf (talk) 18:23, 8 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Looking at the class, it seems no stronger than a fighter at levels 1-4, at levels 5-10 it would be the same as a wizard which buffs up their familiar, however once both the Evolutionist and his companion reach levels 11-20 they would overwhelm almost everything which is opposed to them, the biggest flaw is that if the Animal dies (and restarts at level 1) the Evolutionist is instantly the weakest character in the group, I see no method for them to 'pick themselves up' or regain the collossal loss in power. (SnafuSam talk) November 8, 2013 15:30(PDT)


 * So you're saying there's a question of balance point. I was afraid that adding a second animal companion would take this from Moderate to High. Maybe I could de-buff the character by giving him fewer evolutions. ...or no evolutions?
 * About the animal's death, you're completely right. ... Suggestions?... Off the top of my head, I could make up some magic memory device that remembers everything about an animal and recreates it in a lab. --Nolanf (talk) 18:23, 9 November 2013 (UTC)


 * ---with a second animal in play it all depends on if the first has died or been replaced once, familiars cost their wizard exp when they die, and the replacement is just as strong (if not stronger) than the previous. try and avoid the lab because then it impedes on the wizard and chemist's territory.
 * ---So when the second animal is gained at level 8 it's both a gamble and a huge bonus, because if your first was say, a bear, and your second is a pseudodragon, you've now got a tank and an assassin plus the character. which if your bear dies, then your pseudodragon should be halfway to being a real dragon... if the bear doesn't die lucky you.  my advice create a mechanic which an Evolutionist can use to catch up new animals or balance them out having 2 bears at level 8 will be worth it when the three walk into a level 10 dungeon, same difficulty, extra exp.
 * ---You've made an amazing class which would be very interesting to try out, but keep in mind, that the character and his animal companion are ment to be calculated together for a combat status. think of a SRD:Vrock it's challenge rating is 9, meaning it's meant to fight a team (4, excluding familiars) of level 9 characters, if your Evolutionist is level 9 and you have the dire ape(cr:3) +companion adjustments I would put it at cr:5 as a simple tank your second animal would be an pseudodragon (yes, I love the pseudodragon idea) unfortunetly for you, the vrock is immune to poison so, at challenge rating 1, it's useless(or dead if hit by any AoE spell which occurs at level 9). your companions alone effectively would add .5 to your team's challenge rating and the SRD:Vrock is dealt with much easier and is not calculated into exp or challange rating..  (I wrote this out before realizing that bear is not on your list... Cub?)
 * ---ideas: skipping a self-level to increase her animal by 4 or make it so the animal companion can divide exp with an companion to level them up quicker.
 * ---animal companions (rangers/druids) and familiars instantly gain everything once X animal becomes a companion simply needs to be re-taught how to fetch.
 * ---The benefits to the character are fine, if anything they're under what they could be. try and leave those as-are.. unless large changes are made.
 * ---the level 6 "command" feat is indeed interesting, but it doesn't fit, i advise tossing it.
 * ---new feats: additional animal companion? Animal Companion Feat? undead companion? Parasite/Symbiote companion!? 'feat that treats animal companion like a familiar'? summon companion from distance? Planar companion? celestial/demonic companion?-- (SnafuSam talk) November 10, 2013 04:59(PDT)


 * Wait - Symbiote?! I was about to respond to everything else you wrote until you said "Symbiote." I don't know if you've read my other articles, but I'm a huge Spider-Man fan and the word "symbiote" just translates to "Venom" in my mind. And now I'm wondering why no one else has written a creature like that into this game yet. I have my next homebrew project...
 * Anyway, back to the subject at hand: I'm not advanced enough to have a full understanding of the team's challenge rating, as you wrote it, but I think I get the gist.
 * I like your idea of taking a level penalty in exchange for leveling up an animal companion. How about this: "Process for replacing a dead animal companion: 1. Find or buy a new level-one animal. 2. Accelerate its growth by giving up class levels while keeping your current Effective Character Level. For every class level you lose (class bonuses and all), your new animal companion may gain up to four levels, to a maximum of your own ECL. Other animal companions are not affected by this in any way." For example, Terry is a level-9 evolutionist with a level-9 ape and a level-2 pseudodragon. The ape dies, but Terry immediately gains a new one. Terry drops 2 levels in evolutionist to level 7 (ECL still 9) in exchange for the new ape growing to level 9. Does this work? I've considered a few different scenarios, but I keep running into problems. I'll keep thinking about it. --Nolanf (talk) 04:27, 11 November 2013 (UTC)


 * There probably is a symbiote somewhere, closest I can think of offhand is the [| Fleshwarper]. i was simply thinking of what it'd be like to have an symbiote-companion/familiar it would mean keeping your parasite on/in yourself and keeping the bonuses without having a pet walking beside you. the whole Venom epic-buff with only alignment possible changes doesn't fit too well.
 * That method and wording for replacing animal companions looks good.
 * The only problem I see, is that she's at a lower level than his team, but that's not as much a problem because of her powerful animal companions. she's still just as dangerous and she gains levels a bit faster now that she's a lower-level character in a higher level campaign so she catches up slowly.
 * The challenge ratings are actually pretty simple once you look at it. just keep in mind that monster CR = 4 PC @ level = the balor CR:18 was meant to be fought by 4 level 18 characters... the squirrel CR:1/8 was meant to be 8squirrels vs 4 level 1 characters.

[|dnd encounter calculater] try playing around with this and the monster manual for a few minutes. how much exp does the group get for beating the balor, the squirrels? do you have more than 4 PC's?  this encounter calculator helps me give exp to my group (2-9 members/players) every saturday. Table:3-2 on pg. 22 of the player's handbook has the table which tells when characters level. I take a college ruled paper, and make lines down on it to make a graph for each player/character that's playing. keep a dm-record of which character gets how much exp and you can easily keep track of when your player's level. As opposed to the oldschool "you've finished this dungeon, level up +X" (done that before) (SnafuSam talk) November 11, 2013 17:41(PDT)


 * So I think you're suggesting that her ECL should also go down for the purpose of gaining back those levels slightly faster. This might solve the problem of being permanently crippled, comparative to the other party members. Could (or should) this "focussed growth" ability be used on an animal companion before it dies? --Nolanf (talk) 21:53, 12 November 2013 (UTC)


 * --If they're paying an entire level then yes, her Character level would drop (this could mean losing BaB, saves, feats, her second companion, ect.) and she would gain those levels back slightly faster (if your using the SRD's experience [|dnd encounter calculater]), but she will still be behind her team, this would be an fitting balance for her power.
 * --If they're just paying experience then she wouldn't be able to drop a level however, it would still set her back on exp and balance her power when she enters a higher-level dungeon with her higher-leveled group (she'd level in the middle of the dungeon effectively).
 * --You should have it set so that the animal companion progression-level cannot exceed her Evolutionist level.
 * --What do you mean, before it dies? the level 1 companion is already up-to-date, for the second companion I would say "at player's own risk", she could use this ability on her second companion to balance them at level 6 (entering the level 7-8 dungeon with 2 level 6 companions and herself) and it would be just fine, as long as the dungeon master can handle the unique character. You don't want to let the animal companion out-level the evolutionist... without unique feats/adjustments made to the class... it would cripple the evolutionist and turn her into an extreme weak-point. (SnafuSam talk) November 13, 2013 01:06(PDT)


 * Yep. Problems keep popping up. It occurred to me that the animal's advancements would be written in its DNA. If the evolutionist could get a blood or tissue sample, it wouldn't be so far fetched to have the character sit in a lab for a few days with a level-1 animal to get it back up to speed. I'll just write in some cost in time and gold. --Nolanf (talk) 22:14, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

That would work too. just be sure that the time/cost increases with the difference your making.(SnafuSam talk) November 13, 2013 14:26(PDT)

Polymorph Symbiote Added
It was mentioned earlier that I should add some kind of a symbiote to the list of available creatures that this character could adopt. Well, it took some time, but I finally did it. I'm pretty proud of the work I've done here and I think it opens up a lot of possibilities. Up next, I still want to integrate the pokemon into this. --Nolanf (talk) 06:31, 4 December 2013 (UTC)