View source for Talk:Archaeologist (Pathfinder Class)

I don't know what to say about the class balance, I'd love someone else to take a look and give it an assessment.  Thanks!

: Will hopefully take a look at it tomorrow, but for what it's worth, Pathfinder generally stays in Moderate range for much of the game, with spellcasters venturing into High range and VERY rarely into Very High range. Seeing as this is a non-caster, and assuming that you've balanced it according to what similar Pathfinder non-spellcasters can do, I'd peg it at Moderate. With that said, don't take my word for it as I've yet to read the class, but hopefully that should give you a general direction. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 00:09, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

:: Alrighty, let's take a look at this. I'll give it a level-by-level breakdown.
::#'''Grit:''' Since you're doing the gunslinger route, shouldn't you add a free firearm, like the gunslinger does? '''Polyglot:''' People who invest heavily in Linguistics are going to use up virtually all the languages in any campaign. With a high starting Int, I'm not sure this is really needed. Perhaps instead have this start as Comprehend Languages by spending 1 grit, upgrading to Tongues at some level? '''Encyclopedic Knowledge:''' Skill checks are ridiculously easy to pump up. At higher levels, there are items that give up to +30 to a knowledge skill. I would make this a bonus scaling by level if you make an Intelligence + Level check (DC 15 + CR of targets) with the bonus starting at +1 and increasing by +1 at level 5 and every 5 levels hence. Plus, take into account that guns virtually auto-hit at high levels. Thus, Twist the Knife is INCREDIBLY powerful, and I'd tone that one way down. Compare to the Pistolero archetype which needs to spend a grit point to do something similar. Perhaps spend a grit point to auto-succeed on the check?
:::I was thinking about doing the free firearm, but then I thought that I should leave ''something'' unique to the gunslinger, heh.  I like the idea of using grit in with languages, but I like keeping all the abilities as non-magical as possible.  I could tone it down to 2 languages per skill point.  As for encyclopedic knowledge, yea, I know it is really powerful, that (and favorite professor) are the key abilities of the class.  I definitely wouldn't want to nerf it to a paltry +1 every 5 levels, but perhaps a cap of your INT modifier or class level.  Also, activating it with a grit point is a good idea as well.  I'll reduce twist the knife to a 1d4 instead of 1d6 as well. [[User:OzzyKP|OzzyKP]] ([[User talk:OzzyKP|talk]]) 18:06, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
::#'''Clever Explorer''' seems fine, though a bit unneeded since in general it's very easy to boost skills if you really need it. Plus you're kinda stepping hard on the rogue's toes. '''Danger Sense''' looks fine. Very Indiana Jones-y. '''Whip Mastery''': Yep.
::#'''It Belongs in a Museum''' is waaaay powerful since you can effectively stack things tons of times, especially what with wealth being a river (craft items, trade them for super-bonuses). Imagine +10 to AC and saves, or an ability score, or 10 bonus feats, and so on. At the very least, make them not stack, and expect the entire list (up to artifacts) to eventually be added to the character. Take that into account on how much power the class should have. I would also bump '''Pistol Training''' up to level 5 to put it at the same level as the Gunslinger, but honestly with '''Encyclopedic Knowledge''' it's unneeded, and the combination of the two plus gaining all the Gunslinger's tricks makes this power creep compared to the Gunslinger.
:::This is the other one I knew would open up a lot of balance issues.  I had intended this to only apply to items found while on a campaign.  Not crafted stuff and not stuff bought with treasure.  The bonuses are (except for the last two) rather minor compared to what is given up.  I mean if you come across a +4 Belt of Physical Perfection are you going to trade in a +4 in STR, DEX & CON for a +2 in one ability score?  Unless someone is really abusing the system (putting limits on how items can be found will help stop that) I highly doubt that every bonus will be taken at every level.  And it puts everything in the control of the DM as far as which items are found in the course of the campaign.  I can put the ability a little later too so bonuses won't accumulate as much.  I think I'm most skeptical of the two artifact bonuses and I'd appreciate some ideas for replacement bonuses there.  [[User:OzzyKP|OzzyKP]] ([[User talk:OzzyKP|talk]]) 18:06, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
::#'''Quick Draw''' seems fine at this level. '''Favorite Professor''' now puts the Bard to shame as well, especially if you roll high on the check and get +4 to attack or +4d6 (more likely) to everyone's attacks. If you really want to keep it, I'd keep it at +1 at all levels. '''Lore Master''' seems fine, if you make the above changes to Encyclopedic Knowledge. '''Improved Whip Mastery''' is strong for free, but makes sense.
::#'''Obtainer of Rare Antiquities''' is quite strong, but I think it's fine since you're focusing on that. '''Reasoned Defense''' on the other hand is probably too strong for Pathfinder. I'd limit it to no armor, since Indy never wandered around in armor.
:::No armor is a good idea.  [[User:OzzyKP|OzzyKP]] ([[User talk:OzzyKP|talk]]) 18:06, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
::#Not much at this level to comment on.
::#'''Greater Whip Mastery''' is very powerful, but makes sense.
::#'''Favored Enemy''' is more powerful than the Ranger version, but I think it's fine.
::#Not much at this level to comment on.
::#Not much at this level to comment on.
::#'''Whip Controller''' should be bumped to a lower level in my opinion, if you want Int-focused archaeologists. Put it at level 8 so archaeologists can use it as soon as they can make CMB checks with a whip.
:::Good idea, I'll add it to 8th. [[User:OzzyKP|OzzyKP]] ([[User talk:OzzyKP|talk]]) 18:06, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
:: Hopefully that helps. As it is, I'd balance it as Unquantifiable due to the semi-infinite stacking bonuses. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 23:52, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

:: If it's alright, I'll update the balance to unquant, since it has so much variability depending on whether you can sell huge items using It Belongs in a Museum. Feel free to change it when you come back :-) --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 16:51, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

:::Thanks for the great and detailed feedback!  I understand the class is powerful, and I understand it steps on the toes of Rogue, Bard & Gunslinger.  That was the point.  :)  In addition to just wanting something fun and Indiana Jones like, I was hoping for a non-magical class that could reach the power and versatility of wizards and clerics.  Perhaps I still fell short of that, I dunno, but I certainly wanted this to be significantly more powerful than the average rogue or bard.  I'll respond to some of your points above.  [[User:OzzyKP|OzzyKP]] ([[User talk:OzzyKP|talk]])

:::: No problem, happy to help :-)
:::: The big meta-problem with making a class that's out-and-out stronger than base class power (which Pathfinder quite heavily moderates), is that DMs will take one look at the class and say "lolno". Personally, I think that's quite important for classes. It doesn't make too big of a difference for 3.5 since balance is ALL over the place, but since Pathfinder is less so (assuming Unchained classes replace the original ones), DMs will see that it does what a gunslinger AND a rogue AND a bard does, and automatically tell the player who wants to try it out "no"--and perhaps rightfully so, since it will make any of those above classes (and some others) feel bad and redundant next to this class. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 18:33, 2 October 2015 (UTC)


==Changes on February 3, 2016==
I made a lot of edits to try and tone it down a bit.  Here is my change log:
:: Removed all bonus feats Removed ability to regain grit during day
:: Changed Twist the Knife bonus, from Encyclopedic Knowledge to 1d4 instead of 1d6 extra damage
:: Changed Encyclopedia Knowledge cap to half class level and moved it to level 2 (instead of level 1)
:: Moved Whip Mastery to level 1 (instead of level 2)
::: Moved Improved Whip Mastery to level 3 (instead of level 5)
::: Moved Greater Whip Master to level 5 (instead of level 8)
::: Moved Whip Controller to level 7 (instead of level 11)
:: Polyglot now gives a bonus language and +1 in lingustics at every other level, starting at 2nd (instead of extra languages per linguistic point)
:: Clever explorer bonus now half of class level (instead of full class level)
:: Reasoned defense bonus is now lost if the archeologist wears any armor, and is moved to 8th level (instead of 6th)
:: Removed artifact bonuses for It Belongs in a Museum!
::: Specified that magic item must be found, not crafted or purchased
::: All bonuses for It Belongs in a Museum! are now luck bonuses, not untyped
::: It Belongs in a Museum moved to level 5 (instead of level 3)
:: Favorite professor moved to level 6 (instead of level 4)
:: Switched to a d8 instead of d10
[[User:OzzyKP|OzzyKP]] ([[User talk:OzzyKP|talk]]) 18:31, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

More changes:
:: Obtainer of Rare Antiquities abilities now have a minimum of 1 use per day
::: The 17th level bonus to Spellcraft & Knowledge checks is now an Insight bonus
:: The danger sense bonus to reflex saves is a competence bonus
:: Favorite professor applies to allies within 30 feet who can hear the archaeologist.
[[User:OzzyKP|OzzyKP]] ([[User talk:OzzyKP|talk]]) 14:50, 5 February 2016 (UTC)