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::Well, they were ''only'' stated to illustrate a point, that point being "''just becasue X doesn't gain Y until Z, doesn't mean something else can't gain Y early than Z''". I was merely stating that "''Savage Psychic Knight's don't get bonus feats till 11th level''" cannot be used as "''Getting bonus feats before 11th level is broken''". It's the whole 'SP≠0' being subalternation of 'S~P=0', and therefore not valid in this discussion (yay for logic 205!). Though, I'm afraid you may not understand, even after I explained why I brought them up. Well, you obviously think they are not comparable to this situation, and I agree, a miss chance is much better than those things, but I wasn't comparing them to this situation, I was using them to show a point, a point has been stated already. Now then, I already took into account the 'excludes allies' part, hence the "''bumped up again, considering it has a few 'ebon eyes' tied in''" comment I made. So, one up for the allies part, one up for the increase, one down for the technical decrease, and, if you think the micellaneous things (light spells and fiend vision <small>(hate categorizing them all into 'baatezu', cause there are fiends that aren't baatezu)</small>) are important, then back up for technical increase, so, I guess I could potentially see someone call that fifth level. Of course, I've already stated that this being equivelant to a spell of any level, is irrelevant. What is relevant is how this impacts gameplay, can we please get back to that? I'm still waiting on your opinion, man (Well, you kind of already gave it, saying that 50% miss chance is too good, but, you didn't reply to the "shiney -- too shiney" part, so yeah, that's what I'm looking for). → [[User:Rithaniel|<span style=color:Gray; -moz-border-radius-topleft:50px; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:50px">Rith</span>]]<sup> [[User talk:Rithaniel|<span style=color:#A30506; -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:50px; -moz-border-radius-topleft:50px">(talk)</span>]]</sup> 07:17, November 20, 2009 (UTC)
:::The whole XYZ applies when considering the relative strength of other abilities, but there are class features that simply should not be given until a certain point. Once you reach that point they can be given at any time without major consequences, but offering them before a particular point can be unbalancing. For example, if I offer you the ability to fly at first level, I have given you an advantage over most characters. If the ability to fly is mitigated by some kind of penalty this may be fine, but otherwise it isn't really fair or balanced to everyone else. On the other hand, if a class were to receive the ability to fly at level nine after spells like ''levitate'', ''fly'', and ''air walk'' become available, then the ability to fly is not such a huge boost, because other people can do it too. If you gave this ability at level 20 it would still be relevant, so in this case (flight) it is fine as long as you wait to give the ability until level five or so, maybe even later since third level spell slots are of significant value at that level.
:::Now I am using equivalence to a spell as a measure of power, so that (equivalence) is relevant. If you gain access to a level-appropriate spell before you should, that can have a negative impact on gameplay because it can make one character more powerful than the others. There's a reason you have to wait until [2n-1] to get [n] level spells. If I am calling something the equivalent of a sixth level spell, then I am saying it is probably inappropriate to make it available the player characters before level 11. As I've said two or three times, this depends on whether or not the spell is level-appropriate. I believe that in this case (mass displacement) it is, and therefore is 'too shiny' for a first level character.
:::Here's one thought on how you might adjust this. 50% miss chance is a big deal. A smaller percentage is not. Have the vagary offer a 10% miss chance at first level, increasing by 10% every three levels thereafter, but only to a maximum of 5% per point of Wisdom modifier the pseudonaught. That would take you up to a 70% miss chance at level 19 provided you have 38 Wisdom. In a more realistic sense, it will limit the vagary at lower levels to something more level-appropriate, and will probably cap at something close to 50%. If you put an 18 in Wisdom it will carry you to 20% for sure. Wisdom 20 at first and level 8 will net you 35% at said level, and by level 12 you'll probably has a Wisdom-boosting item enough to get you 45% or so, which is relatively close to where I had previously thought mass displacement should become available. -- [[User:Jota II|Jota]] 18:14, November 20, 2009 (UTC)
