Difference between revisions of "Talk:Canin, Miniature (3.5e Race)"

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:::Also, it has been pointed out to me that dogs are not trusting strangers. They bark at everything and are very cautious around new smells and are highly alert to noises and such. You're experience with dogs may have varied I guess. --[[User:Ganteka Future|Ganteka Future]] ([[User talk:Ganteka Future|talk]]) 20:31, 25 February 2017 (MST)
 
:::Also, it has been pointed out to me that dogs are not trusting strangers. They bark at everything and are very cautious around new smells and are highly alert to noises and such. You're experience with dogs may have varied I guess. --[[User:Ganteka Future|Ganteka Future]] ([[User talk:Ganteka Future|talk]]) 20:31, 25 February 2017 (MST)
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::::There is also weirdness concerning Quadrupedal Tracking, but I don't want to overwhelm you.  First thing first, handle the 30 billion dog breed problem. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] ([[User talk:Eiji-kun|talk]]) 21:01, 25 February 2017 (MST)
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:::::Well at least this was pointed out to me before I did this with the Standard, Large, and Giant Canin.  That should cut back on the amount of research I was going to have to do (certainly not complaining about that).  I had already posted the breed options for the Toy Canin, so I'll need to work on them too.  The dogs trust or lack of trust in strangers really varies from dog to dog and some breeds are more trusting than others (the Maltese, for example, thinks everyone is their friend).  Admittedly, I'm a bit of a dog magnet.  Dogs just tend to like me.  Should I scrap the breeds completely or just cut down and modify them?  --[[Halloweenman33]] 22:16, 25 February 2017 (CST)
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:::::I got rid of the alternate Attribute Bonuses and cut down on the breeds, although I may need to cull the list some more.  I doubt that it's finished, but it's a start.  --[[Halloweenman33]] 22:34, 25 February 2017 (CST)
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::::::Aye, trying to nip it early to save you time and all.  My advice is figuring out what's similar between them.  For example, I recall there being two different kinds of corgi on there.  Or two different but similarly acting dogs on there.  I'd probably list them under a wide general descriptor like "Athletic" and "Excitable" and "Brave", and then you can say like "Excitable Doges cover various small loud dogs such as the (single example dog here)."  I'll repeat the previous advice of aiming for four-five options as your magic number. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] ([[User talk:Eiji-kun|talk]]) 21:41, 25 February 2017 (MST)
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Yeah the two corgis.  There are actually two different breeds of Welsh Corgi, the Pembroke and the Cardigan.  The Pembroke is the most well known of the two and what everyone thinks about when they think of corgis.  I went ahead and deleted the Cardigan from the list since the more obscure breeds were the first ones I got rid of.  At least I didn't try to include mixed breeds or the different types of wild dogs.  That would have been even more work.  --[[Halloweenman33]] 22:44, 25 February 2017 (CST)
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Doing a little research to determine how to narrow down the breeds into groups.  From what I can see the American Kennel Club has 7 (well, kind of 8, but the breeds in the Misc. Class could be grouped into one of the others.  They're just not officially recognized by the AKC yet) groups: Hounds, Herding, Non-Sporting, Terrier, Toy, Sporting, and Working.  Herding and Working can probably be combined into one group.  Hounds, Terriers, and Sporting breeds are technically all hunters, but they are too different to combine into one Hunting group (Terriers specialize in hunting small vermin, Hounds are trackers, either by scent, sight, or both).  The Sporting group includes the pointers, retrievers, spaniels, and setters, all of which are highly athletic, so there's the Athletes or Athletic group (Hounds and Terriers can probably stay as their own groups.  Toys are Companion dogs for the most part.  Non-Sporting is a bit tricky.  It's quite a generalized category composed dog breeds that didn't fit into any of the others (basically "Other").  I could see if I can redistribute them into one of the others or create a Jack of All Trades group, but that would result in six breed groups.  I'll work on this for a while and see what I can come up with.  --[[Halloweenman33]] 21:35, 26 February 2017 (CST)
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I had a thought.  Should I get rid of the Attribute Bonuses and Penalties on all the base Canin races and have the Breed Categories grant different Bonuses depending on what they specialize in?  Or should I just leave that as is?  --[[Halloweenman33]] 17:01, 28 February 2017 (CST)
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From the research I've done, five groups may not be feasible.  Dogs are too diverse to condense into such a small number.  I have managed to condense the Breed Groups down to eight though, with some of them having a few subcategories to represent the diversity with the group.  I'm not quite finished but I'm getting close to it.  Since the Breed Overload was caught on the Miniature Canin (I posted the individual breeds on the Toys first, but if anybody noticed they didn't say anything at that point), I'll post them here first for their test run.  Also, I'll cut down on the numbers and eliminate the mechanical additions, but I think I'll probably keep the fluff for some of the individual breeds.  A lot of work and research went in to that, so I'd rather not let it completely go to waste.  [[Halloweenman33]] 9:21, 2 March 2017 (CST)
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The Breed Groups have been completed (for now) and posted.  I wasn't able to get it down to five, but there are less than ten, not counting the sub-groups.  Also, I kept several of the individual breeds, but I removed their mechanical bonuses, keeping only the fluff, and moved them to the Personality section, since that's mainly what they are now describing.  Beginning test run on the new Breed Groups.  Hopefully this will work better than the previous version.  [[Halloweenman33]] 21:32, 2 March 2017 (CST)
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:Cool, I'll take another look soon (sometime in the next 12 hours anyway). -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] ([[User talk:Eiji-kun|talk]]) 20:39, 2 March 2017 (MST)
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::I've been thinking of ways to cut down the numbers on the Breed Groups some more and I may have an idea.  A possibility I came up with would be removing the subcategories and turning them into specialization feats for their corresponding Breed Groups.  Any thoughts on this idea?  Would this work or should I just leave it as is?  --[[User:Halloweenman33|Halloweenman33]] ([[User talk:Halloweenman33|talk]]) 20:19, 16 April 2017

Latest revision as of 01:19, 17 April 2017

Stats[edit]

The stats on this one makes sense at least. It shares the common mystery of shattering whenever someone barks and exploding whenever the smell of chocolate gets within 30 ft (chocolate is bad for dogs, but it's not black lotus!), but that's not a problem unique to this one per se. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 17:47, 21 February 2017 (MST)

Sorry man, but in one big swoop of effort you managed to make this unplayable. Having to read over 40 different racial options (for looking over a single race of what is itself already divided into four races) is inexcusable design. No. Bad dog. Also, don't ever grant odd numbers to racial ability adjustments (short version: they cause problems for things like Point Buy systems and min-maxing gets encouraged in a weird way). Forcing players to hunt and peck for stats when those stats are just buried in flavor anyways and the player will just go with the stats they want and not care is mean and insulting for people's use of free time. Why? All this has become so far is jumping through hoops so you can smell, bite and fart. That's not a good impression. --Ganteka Future (talk) 14:25, 25 February 2017 (MST)
Hoo boy, I came back to this, and Gan is right on this one. This is... this is way to much. While your mastery of Knowledge Dogs is impressive, it is also completely and utterly untenable.
There is a certain beauty is simplicity, especially in a game whose rules can be quite complex. And you definitely do not want to give your players decision paralysis. Offer options, but if you offer too many options it becomes a slog that A) No one wants to read and B) No one can keep track of the rules for. You have so many breeds, sub-breeds, variants, alternate dog features, and mutations that it doesn't work. You may as well made it a mix and match thing: "Select +2 to two of these things, -2 to two of these things, and a +3 bonus on a Whatever check" with all of these variants.
When you have (five? six? twenty eight? I haven't kept track) breeds of canin already with separate but similar pages, it was suspect. But that can easily be fixed by making them very different from each other. But of each of these breeds has 30 sub-breeds, no way.
Please, try to compress this. Let me put it this way. I'm just an average joe, I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of dog breeds and their differences. As far as I'm concerned, dogs come in "Retrievers, poodles, Scottish mop dogs, meme doges, bulldogs, and those big dogs who give you hot cocoa in the mountains." I know it's simplified, but really, simple is good. You could easily bring it down to those six choices, and that's assuming that these dogs have any real mechanical differences between each other beyond appearance. I could probably throw poodles, Scottish terriers, and shiba inus (I do actually know their names after all) into the category of "Small yappy dog".
What you need to do is figure out the generalized descriptions of dogs. Go broad. If you have a number under than four-five, good. If it's bigger than that, keep going more general until you're down to those choices. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 20:10, 25 February 2017 (MST)
Also, it has been pointed out to me that dogs are not trusting strangers. They bark at everything and are very cautious around new smells and are highly alert to noises and such. You're experience with dogs may have varied I guess. --Ganteka Future (talk) 20:31, 25 February 2017 (MST)
There is also weirdness concerning Quadrupedal Tracking, but I don't want to overwhelm you. First thing first, handle the 30 billion dog breed problem. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 21:01, 25 February 2017 (MST)
Well at least this was pointed out to me before I did this with the Standard, Large, and Giant Canin. That should cut back on the amount of research I was going to have to do (certainly not complaining about that). I had already posted the breed options for the Toy Canin, so I'll need to work on them too. The dogs trust or lack of trust in strangers really varies from dog to dog and some breeds are more trusting than others (the Maltese, for example, thinks everyone is their friend). Admittedly, I'm a bit of a dog magnet. Dogs just tend to like me. Should I scrap the breeds completely or just cut down and modify them? --Halloweenman33 22:16, 25 February 2017 (CST)
I got rid of the alternate Attribute Bonuses and cut down on the breeds, although I may need to cull the list some more. I doubt that it's finished, but it's a start. --Halloweenman33 22:34, 25 February 2017 (CST)
Aye, trying to nip it early to save you time and all. My advice is figuring out what's similar between them. For example, I recall there being two different kinds of corgi on there. Or two different but similarly acting dogs on there. I'd probably list them under a wide general descriptor like "Athletic" and "Excitable" and "Brave", and then you can say like "Excitable Doges cover various small loud dogs such as the (single example dog here)." I'll repeat the previous advice of aiming for four-five options as your magic number. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 21:41, 25 February 2017 (MST)

Yeah the two corgis. There are actually two different breeds of Welsh Corgi, the Pembroke and the Cardigan. The Pembroke is the most well known of the two and what everyone thinks about when they think of corgis. I went ahead and deleted the Cardigan from the list since the more obscure breeds were the first ones I got rid of. At least I didn't try to include mixed breeds or the different types of wild dogs. That would have been even more work. --Halloweenman33 22:44, 25 February 2017 (CST)


Doing a little research to determine how to narrow down the breeds into groups. From what I can see the American Kennel Club has 7 (well, kind of 8, but the breeds in the Misc. Class could be grouped into one of the others. They're just not officially recognized by the AKC yet) groups: Hounds, Herding, Non-Sporting, Terrier, Toy, Sporting, and Working. Herding and Working can probably be combined into one group. Hounds, Terriers, and Sporting breeds are technically all hunters, but they are too different to combine into one Hunting group (Terriers specialize in hunting small vermin, Hounds are trackers, either by scent, sight, or both). The Sporting group includes the pointers, retrievers, spaniels, and setters, all of which are highly athletic, so there's the Athletes or Athletic group (Hounds and Terriers can probably stay as their own groups. Toys are Companion dogs for the most part. Non-Sporting is a bit tricky. It's quite a generalized category composed dog breeds that didn't fit into any of the others (basically "Other"). I could see if I can redistribute them into one of the others or create a Jack of All Trades group, but that would result in six breed groups. I'll work on this for a while and see what I can come up with. --Halloweenman33 21:35, 26 February 2017 (CST)


I had a thought. Should I get rid of the Attribute Bonuses and Penalties on all the base Canin races and have the Breed Categories grant different Bonuses depending on what they specialize in? Or should I just leave that as is? --Halloweenman33 17:01, 28 February 2017 (CST)


From the research I've done, five groups may not be feasible. Dogs are too diverse to condense into such a small number. I have managed to condense the Breed Groups down to eight though, with some of them having a few subcategories to represent the diversity with the group. I'm not quite finished but I'm getting close to it. Since the Breed Overload was caught on the Miniature Canin (I posted the individual breeds on the Toys first, but if anybody noticed they didn't say anything at that point), I'll post them here first for their test run. Also, I'll cut down on the numbers and eliminate the mechanical additions, but I think I'll probably keep the fluff for some of the individual breeds. A lot of work and research went in to that, so I'd rather not let it completely go to waste. Halloweenman33 9:21, 2 March 2017 (CST)


The Breed Groups have been completed (for now) and posted. I wasn't able to get it down to five, but there are less than ten, not counting the sub-groups. Also, I kept several of the individual breeds, but I removed their mechanical bonuses, keeping only the fluff, and moved them to the Personality section, since that's mainly what they are now describing. Beginning test run on the new Breed Groups. Hopefully this will work better than the previous version. Halloweenman33 21:32, 2 March 2017 (CST)

Cool, I'll take another look soon (sometime in the next 12 hours anyway). -- Eiji-kun (talk) 20:39, 2 March 2017 (MST)
I've been thinking of ways to cut down the numbers on the Breed Groups some more and I may have an idea. A possibility I came up with would be removing the subcategories and turning them into specialization feats for their corresponding Breed Groups. Any thoughts on this idea? Would this work or should I just leave it as is? --Halloweenman33 (talk) 20:19, 16 April 2017