Talk:Nubian Fury (3.5e Feat)

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RatedLike.png Ghostwheel likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.
Constitution is already a god stat. This makes it worse and pushes barbarians way off the RNG in a bad way.

(+16 from con while raging, -2 from rage on top of everything else is even higher than what swordsages can get.)

Making it an armor bonus fixes things, as you won't get stacked too high.

RatedLike.png balmz likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.
pretty amusing and historically accurate to a degree, i might have it they gain an extra 10 feet movement speed though.

How the hell did you get 42 con?! --Leziad (talk) 00:06, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Easy. 16 (Base) + 2 (Racial) + 6 (Item) + 5 (Wish/Manual) + 5 (Level up) + 8 (Rage) = 42. --Ghostwheel (talk) 00:10, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
So you spent pretty much half your entire WBL on boosting that constitution. You cannot wear any armor or you otherwise lose that bonus... and it 1 point better than a +5 full-plate? Color me immensely unimpressed. --Leziad (talk) 00:13, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
It's actually a fraction of your WBL. But let's look at the actual numbers. I've done this before, but if you want, I'll ride this pony again. Just one caveat: No animated shields. They're just incredibly cheesy, and while the math works for monster and iterative attacks when they're not used, using them makes everything go to shit and drops damage incredibly hard (due to iterative attacks) while making squishier characters fall completely off the RNG if you have a chance of hitting the heavy-armored characters. Still, if you want to give everyone +5 animated heavy shields, that's your call.
Full plate dude: 10 (Base) + 3 (Dex) + 13 (Mithral Full Plate) + 5 (Ring of Protection) + 5 (Amulet of Natural Armor) = 36 AC (18 Touch)
Nubian Fury Barb: 10 (Base) + 5 (Dex) + 8 (Bracers of Armor) + 16 (Con) - 2 (Rage) + 5 (Ring of Protection) + 5 (Amulet of Natural Armor) + 1 (Undressed) = 48 (35 Touch)
Just for the lolz, Squishy: 10 (Base) + 8 (Bracers of Armor) + 5 (Dex) + 5 (Ring of Protection) + 5 (Amulet of Natural Armor) = 33 (20 Touch) which puts them on the RNG as the heavy armored guy.
To give a sense of perspective, what characters have for attack bonuses at that level: 20 (BAB) + 12 (Str) + 1 (Weapon Focus) + 1 (Greater Weapon Focus) + 2 (Melee Weapon Mastery) + 5 (Weapon) = +36/+31/+26/+21. Those iteratives add a HUGE amount of damage, and are part of the fragile balance in 3.5 that needs to be maintained if you want non-ToB characters to remain relevant.
Sense made? Honestly, almost all of my dislikes are couched in math that I've spent a LOOOONG time doing research on. It might sound pretentious, but I know my stuff, and I often have actual math reasons why it isn't good for the game from a design perspective. --Ghostwheel (talk) 01:34, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Some more numbers: here's what it looks like from a power attack DPR standpoint. Under this, the nubian barbarian takes on average 80 DPR, while the fighter takes on average 187.5 DPR, a difference of 134%. Note that power attack remains relevant against an AC of 36, but it becomes a completely wasted feat (or one shoots themselves in the knee) when you go more than a few numbers above that. --Ghostwheel (talk) 01:47, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
"It's actually a fraction of your WBL." - Citation Needed.
Being one who enjoys maximizing their scores, I come in knowing that inherent bonuses are expensive as crap. This may be hyperbole on your part, but nowhere does 137,500 gp equal a "fraction" of anything but the highest of levels, not to mention the enhancement bonus items cost as well. "A fraction" sounds like a 1/4th of your value to me, and you won't reach that til 20th level. Let's be generous and say it's only 1/3. You can get that at... 18th level WBL. The horror. Even if you're getting the inherent bonuses piecemeal over time, it's still a great effort and the way the WBL works it starts slow and then starts growing, increasing dramatically as we approach 20th. So you can expect to be poor as you pour all your resources into being the Con-monster.
This example barbarian appears to be non-functional as a character for ~18 levels. That does not a good build make. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 01:52, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
It was supposed to be an armor bonus to AC, I just forgot to write it down. In Any case you spent like... 337,500 gp on your AC, that almost half of your level 20 WBL, it almost your entire level 17th WBL. It an immense amount of money, you spent all your stats from leveling into con as well (it would better serve in strength). So you can afford this setup at level 20 if you want any other stat booster and a good weapon, and all your other gears will suffer from your decison to boost the most easily bypassed defense in game instead of investing in getting a miss chance. Again, color me unimpressed. --Leziad (talk) 02:03, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
I will note that he was assuming level 20, given that he noted the 5 points from leveling. A better idea for this would be to throw in Shielded In Life rather than all of those horribly expensive items. Or, you could add it, but Oh the RNGanity! --Undead_Knave (talk) 02:09, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Edit: As a note, that counterpoint was snarky because I mentioned a thing you made that does the same as a thing you mentioned above. Also, at a certain point, accessorizing yourself a huge amount with magical trinkets would probably eventually make you count as dressed. That would stop you from getting the Con to AC. --Undead_Knave (talk) 02:12, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Is the relevant bit just the bonus from Wish/Manuals? I thought it was a widely-accepted practice that the wish economy comes into play at around level 11-12 *tongue in cheek* :-P
At any rate, I've given my reasons. And I think they're cogent ones at that. You can accept them ... or not. Still, my numbers make a strong point, one which you haven't addressed. Address the numbers. Say that it's actually decent DPR at level 20. Say that animated shields are a thing and should be used, slightly making the difference better. Say that squishier characters *should* be falling off the RNG, and that they don't matter for the most part. But address the actual math instead of trying to attack the argument in a roundabout way which doesn't address the actual math.
As for dressed, it says only armor or clothes. Accessories count as neither :-P
@Eiji: The fact that he's a barbarian, and gets an inherent boost to stats from raging, on top of the additional bonus from this feat while unclothed, makes him do very decent damage throughout the progression even with just feats from the PHB. I invite you to run the numbers through the DPR calculator I posted a link to, to see for yourself.
Let's actually look at the numbers. Starting will be 16 Str. We'll be level 6, using a +1 Greatsword, and have a +2 enhancement item to str.
Str: 16 (Base) + 2 (Enhancement) + 4 (Rage) + 2 (Nubian Fury) = 24 (+7)
Only feats will be Weapon Focus and Power Attack.
Against even an AC of 20 he does 28 DPR on average. I'd say that's very close, if not outright better than an equivalent fighter. Tell me again how he's worthless for the first 18 levels? --Ghostwheel (talk) 02:13, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
LikedGhostwheel + and balmz +