Difference between revisions of "Talk:Quickening Katana (3.5e Equipment)"

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:::: Je comprend. --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 21:55, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
 
:::: Je comprend. --[[User:Leziad|Leziad]] ([[User talk:Leziad|talk]]) 21:55, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
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:::::(Sorry in advance for LONG POST) Comparing to the bastard sword is difficult. It's a weapon we tend to feel bad for and certainly isn't the balance point anyone tries to reach when designing or looking at exotic weapons. Alternatively, the spiked chain... gets brought up a lot in optimization discussions. The argument about the bastard sword is more that the quickening katana was an overcorrection of a perceived problem.
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:::::Getting a feat (Exotic Weapon Proficiency) that gives access to another feat by way of using that specific equipment can work, but it does make balance tricky. Ideally, exotic weapons open up interesting features and mechanics based around the weapon's function and shape, and do so in a way that doesn't bog down the game or remove level-appropriate challenges (rather, easing those challenges). Sometimes easing those challenges is as basic as "more damage", and sometimes it is as complex as "you can strike around shields, ignoring some shield bonus to AC and allowing you to more easily disarm shields with a +2 bonus on such rolls" or some other similar example. Not all enemies have a shield bonus, so having a "sometimes" benefit opposed to an "always" benefit like more damage might be something that interests a character, especially given a certain campaign.
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:::::I don't know anyone that gets excited about long feat chains. I don't know what that has to do with the quickening katana. Exotic Weapon Proficiency is available for free for classes and races and other material. It depends on how much you think the feat is worth, as the SRD tended to vary greatly on the value of things.
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:::::As far as material being "boring", well, that's a different beast and the game has plenty of space and need for such things, especially for DMs when running enemy combatants and need things that are competent and simple to run. A feature that goes unused is as good as a feature it didn't have.
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:::::As for Falling Bamboo Forest, if for some reason I was DMing a player that wasn't the author, and their character had this weapon, I would rule that the final feature only be used when making any cleave attack. If that's the case, "when cleaving" would be the suggestion to tag on to the end of the questionable sentence. Given that it very well might not be the case and you're just supposed to double attack with your swings as your reward for having Great Cleave, which is also possible, given how difficult it is to pull off Great Cleave anyway, and having a more constant benefit could be the intended wording.
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:::::As for Blizzard of Blades, well, it gives access to someone else's specialized toy, to put it a funny way. This was their thing, but now you have it, with more options on it. Monks, or anyone who can get a flurry (which isn't difficult) can use any weapon they can flurry with, not just their unarmed strike. The weirdness about the 5-ft. step or [[Dash (3.5e Feat)|Dash]] as a swift (or any other swift action movement abilities), is that your blade continues slashing in that space even if you move away from it. I could see that as a supernatural maneuver for sure, fine, but this isn't supernatural, so it comes across as a glitch and a bit of weirdness, and would continue even if you put your blade away or were disarmed.
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:::::I actually rather like Rising Sun Strike, I just find it odd that it is tied to this weapon so specifically. At higher levels were fighting larger monsters is much more common, it gives the fight-man at least some means of getting into melee without taking damage for it, provided he can manage the set up. With its wording, you don't even need to target the nearest square of an enemy, which is probably intended, since it only counts as a charge. You can move along side and past a target and potentially back out of their full-attack range. It's also a standard action, so you've still got a move action for the round. I haven't thought out all the possible mechanical implications of this, but it is interesting.
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:::::As for waiting for a response, the author also has a tendency to not answer, so the likelihood of it being changed within a reasonable time of posting the comment is low. As the article is what, nearly 5 years old now, and I had forgotten about it since the last time I saw it used in game. Concerns were brought up with the author then, and that was already a couple years ago as well. I'd rather not put it on a list, wait, and forget about it again.
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:::::Favor ratings are for articles "good enough to be featured on the front page". I'd rather not have things on the front page that have multiple ambiguities in them.
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:::::This is an Oppose for me. I don't like deleting articles, preferring that they get sandboxed. It needs a major overhaul to be usable. It has far too many features, and those features add up to more than a reasonable cost. I'll not be changing my rating, but the quest for fairness is understood. Thumbs up.
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:::::Also, don't worry about any miscommunications. Being clear in text on talk pages, especially when they get long, is very difficult. Honesty is appreciated and when it comes to design and D&D rules, we all make mistakes. I'm sure there were plenty of things on here I could have been more clear about. --[[User:Ganteka Future|Ganteka Future]] ([[User talk:Ganteka Future|talk]]) 23:49, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Revision as of 23:49, 28 June 2022

Ratings

RatedOppose.png Ganteka Future opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
There's some poor wording on here that's really unclear and it just grants far too much for the investiture to get it, making other material obsolete in the process. Also, see below.
RatedFavor.png The bluez in the dungeon favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
Finally, a katana that is not underpowered! *wink wink


Balance

So, this is intended to make the bastard sword not exist right? On the surface, which is to say, the stat block and the first three sentences of text, the two weapons are comparable. The quickening katana costs a little more, deals a 1d8 instead of the bastard sword's 1d10, has a higher critical range and weighs a pound less. It even has the same funny "get it now when you have Martial Proficiency, get benefits later when you get Exotic Proficiency without having to trade out your weapon" benefit, an often overlooked and convenient feature of the bastard sword. It's also basically a more damaging rapier that deals slashing instead of piercing, but you can two-hand it.

Now, the bastard sword gets crapped on a lot for not really offering anything else for that feat investiture. The quickening katana goes to fix that feat investiture by... giving you another feat (Cleave), or a scaling benefit to that chain that ends with a poorly worded ability that may just let you attack two targets with every swing you make. That's not all, obviously, there's the better drawing features, Blizzard of Blades (which normally requires a feat and an ability score prerequisite, ignored here, and with further benefits and is also poorly worded letting you attack a space then move but still somehow attack from that space or something) and Rising Sun Strike.

A feat's design should not be "get another feat and also this benefit here, and...". Don't do that to Exotic Weapon Proficiency, that's poor design.

There are some ideas here, but too many of them and not particularly well thought out. Rising Sun Strike is enough of a benefit on its own, though doesn't make sense why suddenly you can move like that with this weapon and not do that with any other weapon you own. These things should be like, maneuvers or feats or something. --Ganteka Future (talk) 19:57, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Ganteka, I'm sorry but I have to disagree wholeheartedly.
Point about bastard sword is not complete: yes it makes the sword not exist, as much homebrew content trumps over WoTC material with little care, because the point is in fact to discard what's useless or not optimal. And bastard sword is not a good comparison: it was terribly weak from the start. Real contender is the spiked chain which has reach, not reach and trip, along with finesse and two-handed, which are probably still a bit less but not so much.
Point about giving too things with just one feat, especially other feats. While you are right that some of this features could be their own feat, just for the katana or with a broader scope, but then what would Exotic proficiency do? Give a player an higher crit? A double weapon? A bigger damage die? Yeah, I think I'm gonna use my very limited selection of feats to take Cleave and just use a greatsword. This is specifically limiting characters to complete long and burdensome feat chains to achieve very little. That is poor design.
On the Falling Bamboo Forest: well it's not very clear, still it's enough clear to understand it means that when using the extra attack from Great Cleave you can hit two opponents with one attack roll. It's poorly worded yes, but then suggest a fix, don't run to harsh ratings immediately.
On the Blizzard of Blades: while I think that this is the feature that may most benefit from an indipendent feat, your comparison isn't very thourough. The Infinite flurry requires a class (better a class feature), and the class is monk. And it applies to a scaling unarmed strike, whose damage is quite higher than this one (other than applying to monk weapons). The real problem, in my mind, is that Infinite Flurry requires Flurry of Blows, limiting it to monks. And no, you can't move after the attack and still hit, unsless you use a 5-ft step or have a mean to move as a free or swift action, which are minor occurences. And again, if the problem is bad wording just suggest a change.
I don't mean to sound annoying, but it really seems that you rated out of a little "outburst" instead of letting the author review your comment, and I think a second view is good in this situation. --The bluez in the dungeon (talk) 20:48, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Blizzard of Blade does actually not require to be a Monk and having Flurry of Blow. It just a special infinite flurry attack anyone proficient can use. --Leziad (talk) 20:56, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Blizzard no, but Infinite Flurry yes, I was referring to that. Probably it's poorly worded, bit I can blame it on English not being my native language. --The bluez in the dungeon (talk) 21:05, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
Je comprend. --Leziad (talk) 21:55, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
(Sorry in advance for LONG POST) Comparing to the bastard sword is difficult. It's a weapon we tend to feel bad for and certainly isn't the balance point anyone tries to reach when designing or looking at exotic weapons. Alternatively, the spiked chain... gets brought up a lot in optimization discussions. The argument about the bastard sword is more that the quickening katana was an overcorrection of a perceived problem.
Getting a feat (Exotic Weapon Proficiency) that gives access to another feat by way of using that specific equipment can work, but it does make balance tricky. Ideally, exotic weapons open up interesting features and mechanics based around the weapon's function and shape, and do so in a way that doesn't bog down the game or remove level-appropriate challenges (rather, easing those challenges). Sometimes easing those challenges is as basic as "more damage", and sometimes it is as complex as "you can strike around shields, ignoring some shield bonus to AC and allowing you to more easily disarm shields with a +2 bonus on such rolls" or some other similar example. Not all enemies have a shield bonus, so having a "sometimes" benefit opposed to an "always" benefit like more damage might be something that interests a character, especially given a certain campaign.
I don't know anyone that gets excited about long feat chains. I don't know what that has to do with the quickening katana. Exotic Weapon Proficiency is available for free for classes and races and other material. It depends on how much you think the feat is worth, as the SRD tended to vary greatly on the value of things.
As far as material being "boring", well, that's a different beast and the game has plenty of space and need for such things, especially for DMs when running enemy combatants and need things that are competent and simple to run. A feature that goes unused is as good as a feature it didn't have.
As for Falling Bamboo Forest, if for some reason I was DMing a player that wasn't the author, and their character had this weapon, I would rule that the final feature only be used when making any cleave attack. If that's the case, "when cleaving" would be the suggestion to tag on to the end of the questionable sentence. Given that it very well might not be the case and you're just supposed to double attack with your swings as your reward for having Great Cleave, which is also possible, given how difficult it is to pull off Great Cleave anyway, and having a more constant benefit could be the intended wording.
As for Blizzard of Blades, well, it gives access to someone else's specialized toy, to put it a funny way. This was their thing, but now you have it, with more options on it. Monks, or anyone who can get a flurry (which isn't difficult) can use any weapon they can flurry with, not just their unarmed strike. The weirdness about the 5-ft. step or Dash as a swift (or any other swift action movement abilities), is that your blade continues slashing in that space even if you move away from it. I could see that as a supernatural maneuver for sure, fine, but this isn't supernatural, so it comes across as a glitch and a bit of weirdness, and would continue even if you put your blade away or were disarmed.
I actually rather like Rising Sun Strike, I just find it odd that it is tied to this weapon so specifically. At higher levels were fighting larger monsters is much more common, it gives the fight-man at least some means of getting into melee without taking damage for it, provided he can manage the set up. With its wording, you don't even need to target the nearest square of an enemy, which is probably intended, since it only counts as a charge. You can move along side and past a target and potentially back out of their full-attack range. It's also a standard action, so you've still got a move action for the round. I haven't thought out all the possible mechanical implications of this, but it is interesting.
As for waiting for a response, the author also has a tendency to not answer, so the likelihood of it being changed within a reasonable time of posting the comment is low. As the article is what, nearly 5 years old now, and I had forgotten about it since the last time I saw it used in game. Concerns were brought up with the author then, and that was already a couple years ago as well. I'd rather not put it on a list, wait, and forget about it again.
Favor ratings are for articles "good enough to be featured on the front page". I'd rather not have things on the front page that have multiple ambiguities in them.
This is an Oppose for me. I don't like deleting articles, preferring that they get sandboxed. It needs a major overhaul to be usable. It has far too many features, and those features add up to more than a reasonable cost. I'll not be changing my rating, but the quest for fairness is understood. Thumbs up.
Also, don't worry about any miscommunications. Being clear in text on talk pages, especially when they get long, is very difficult. Honesty is appreciated and when it comes to design and D&D rules, we all make mistakes. I'm sure there were plenty of things on here I could have been more clear about. --Ganteka Future (talk) 23:49, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
FavoredThe bluez in the dungeon +
OpposedGanteka Future +