Talk:Shadow Magister (3.5e Class)

Tarkis, this was all your fault

What the title says. - MisterSinister 06:04, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Because I sort of babbled about doing WotC conversions for ToP, and that got you to look at the Shadow Whatever and you decided to redo it because you like the theme? In that case, you are welcome for the motivation. Comments later today after I have finished digesting the mysteries list, recharge casting, and spell level adjustments. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 19:20, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Not only that - it's an amazing missed opportunity, and shadowcasting is so shitty as written in ToM that I couldn't stand not rewriting it. It's like seeing an untidy kitchen - it bothers me on a very fundamental level, and begs to be fixed. - MisterSinister 20:39, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

You don't remake every article you dislike. What are you going to do about that? --Foxwarrior 21:02, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Only so many hours in the day, Fox. A man's gotta prioritize. - MisterSinister 21:11, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Memorization

The association structure here leads to some interesting behaviors. You can run around with 6 things prepped + your fundamentals, and you can change or restore those 6 things with an hour of time. There's no rest limiter in here that I saw, which is fine, but it turns the whole idea of giving wizard spells as mysteries on its head a bit. They get more starting spell effects than a low level wizard or sorcerer, can recharge them much more easily, and that should be taken into account in the mystery list. Straight up spell level dropping + recitalizing is not a great fit for them as a result. They need a lot more rituals and a lot fewer recitations basically. I have some specific concerns about some of the mysteries, but I'll put that on the list talk. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 21:18, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Would extending the switch-out or restoration time solve some of these problems? - MisterSinister 21:21, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Probably not unless it was extended to be on par with normal resting times, which I don't think helpful or interesting. Leaning more heavily on their Mysteries Revealed feature to get their all the time stuff, and possibly adding more of them, is a better call I think. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 21:31, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

That's good by me. How many more do you reckon? - MisterSinister 21:58, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Every even level after 4 I guess, so they get to advance one per Mystery level. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 22:14, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Implementing now. - MisterSinister 22:16, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

No Concentration

Can their mysteries be interrupted like other arcane magic? If so, did you want to put back in Concentration so they don't lose them to a readied action, or is that weakness intentional? - Tarkisflux ^Talk 22:47, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

They can be, or at least, that was my intention. I thought you moved the 'readied action' thing to Arcana and co? - MisterSinister 22:50, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Casting defensively is in Arcana. Casting while being stabbed (like the result of someone readying to stab you when you started casting) is still in Concentration. Casting while melting in a pool of lava or on fire is in Endurance. The intent was to make breaking casting more common, and to boost the utility of casting a DoT spell on a caster.

Anyway, this class can cast defensively but can't handle an interruption for shit. That might be fine and dandy since they have other utility stuff to balance, but I wanted to point it out. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 22:54, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

I think I'll leave it for now. I'm not really sure how much of a weakness this is relative to what else this class gets, and I kinda like the class skills they currently get. - MisterSinister 22:56, 28 June 2012 (UTC)

Ratings

	DanielDraco favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	This doesn't just fix Shadowcasters -- this fixes Vancian casting. It's a much better way to go about limiting spellcasting. It's a little lightweight in rules, but then again so are wizards and sorcerers -- which, by throwing together a handful of other themed spell lists, it could easily replace.

ThunderGod Cid likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.

I like this class, sure, but I must admit I'm not blown away by it. It does what it does, which is all well and good. By that, I mean that it makes the shadowcaster not suck donkey balls, which needed to happen. The mysteries certainly give it all the things that it needs to be effective in combat and be all shadow-themed, but these are all things that I expect. The unseen servant-related abilities are a nice touch, especially given the nifty scrying you can do through it later on, but I feel Tarkis' reservations concerning some of the mysteries are reasonable and given that this class was inspiried by ToP it doesn't seem to incorporate all that much ToP content (with the exception of Shadow Amplification). This may have been deliberate so the class can adequately stand alone from ToP, so I'll excuse it. All in all, a practical class, but I will expect much of the interesting bits to come in the form of homebrew spells that serve as mysteries rather than the class itself given the absence of different theme choices (a la the Tome Sorcerer).

	Salazar666 likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.
	Like Cid said it gets the job done, But lacks an indepth lore to go along with these very mysterious and shadowy casters. Its not something I personally will be playing anytime soon, But there will be plenty of others who would love it to death

Tarkisflux favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!

This is one of those rare casters who gets a bunch of fairly strong stuff, but is pretty narrow in what they can actually do with it. They only get 2 or 3 abilities per mystery level by the end, but they can use them a lot. Which means that anytime they have a "shadow magister" shaped lock they get to bash it in, but they're unlikely to overshadow people in lots of other circumstances. In the ToP version, the only items they get to backup their limited selection are the ones they pay for with skill selections; and they don't get backup at all without. It's a nice caster setup that plays differently than most others around, and I'm for it.

	Leziad favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	I really like this class. Also what the others said.

Rating Retorts

Never thought I'd hear that one about rating granularity. To address some of the critiques, however:

• The thing about ToP compliance is that this is all it is - compliance. This class is meant to be usable with ToP without any changes. It's not really meant to be a class that highlights the strengths of ToP, due to its being a caster.
• The absence of themes is quite intentional - being a shadow magister is by itself a theme. This is definitionally a narrow class, so I don't think themes are best served as parts of this class. Check out some of its PrC options though - those are the themes for this class, in my view.

I also have to freely admit that this was inspired by two things: firstly, the fact that the shadowcaster did suck donkey dick; secondly, their casting mechanic, which incorporates some new ideas I've seen kicked around on the Gaming Den not long ago in a practical implementation. So in a way, this is conceptual test work, and thus, I never really expected it to be one of my masterpieces.

In terms of new mysteries, however, that I am totally down with. At the moment, the class lacks summons, for example, which is definitely an area I could see it being expanded into. Volunteering, Cid? - MisterSinister 02:05, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

A Few Assorted Thoughts

I just had a few things I wanted to bring up:

1. I notice the ability to ignore somatic components isn't part of the shadow magister class even though it's one of the cooler parts of the shadowcaster. Did I miss a mention of that or is there a reason you didn't include it? I'd like to see it at least as a feat or ACF for the shadow magister.

2. The 8th and 9th level mysteries don't have any recitals and there are very few at each other level. Is this intentional? Could I suggest/write a couple?

3. When a spell is added to the shadow magister's spell list (like with the Stranger in the Night adding suggestion to a caster's spell list) are they added as a mystery (recital/illusion?) or does that just not work?