View source for Talk:Veles Whirl (3.5e Spell)/Original Edition

== Ratings ==
{{Rating |rater=Undead Knave
|rating=oppose
|reason=It took 16 minutes for the text of this spell (not counting the stat block at the top) to be read to me.  With a combined 27 years of DMing experience, none of us were able to figure out how to actually implement this.

But this is just rephrasing and emphasizing what has already been said.  As such, I am now going to rephrase and emphasize something else that has already been said by making a humorous statement (humility was never my strong suit(that is a bald faced lie)).  I have previously called you out on your design philosophy of attempting to close loopholes by adding significantly more words by pointing out that that almost always adds more loopholes.  You have always - without fail - immediately responded with "Oh, you found loopholes?  Let me add more words to close them" to that argument.

In listening to the text of this spell, I believe that I have finally discovered the core concept of this philosophy.  I posit that you keep making your articles longer with the thought that, unless someone is taking notes, they will be unable to remember the loophole they found, thus being unable to use it and stopping you from closing it.  This is a terrible idea on multiple grounds, e.g. it relies on the laziness of minmaxers and is more work for you than actually closing them.

As such, I can find no actual reasoning for ever using this philosophy, given that at its very heart, it is unwise, rotted, and pungent.

Long story short, do this thing I just wrote.

^That one.
}}
{{Rating |rater=Ganteka Future
|rating=oppose
|reason=Reading this out loud took me 16 minutes (not counting the stat block at the top). At the end, the combined 31 years of D&D game playing experienced players listening to this still had no idea how to use this in a game. That's pathetically terrible. You should be ashamed of yourself for this kind of design philosophy, when I know you are capable of designing good material. Sandbox this. It's a joke.
}}
{{Rating |rater=Leziad
|rating=oppose
|reason=I tried to use it as a joke, but it was so long and confusing I could not muster the time to read and understand it all.

Edited: It took 16 minutes to read, changing rating. 
}}
{{Rating |rater=Eiji-kun
|rating=oppose
|reason=Huh, I never rated this.  Right now it has to be an oppose until the issues I brought up are addressed.  That said, I believe Luigi is still out and about.  If you can compress this as I have below, this oppose will go away.
}}
{{Rating |rater=Spanambula
|rating=oppose
|reason=For the love of God, please adopt Eiji's suggestions for the abbreviated wording and mechanics. This spell's needlessly meandering prose, unnecessary mechanics, misplaced fluff, and random restrictions have made it an in-joke among the players in my gaming group. 
}}
{{Rating |rater=Dragonexx
|rating=oppose
|reason=Dear FUCKING god this is long. The concept is cool enough, but DAMN is this length insane. I don't want to have to refer to this novel each time I want to cast this spell. Please, find a way to shorten it, otherwise it will likely never see use anywhere. Nobody I know is going to want to have to wade through that much text for one single spell.
}}
{{Rating |rater=Tarkisflux
|rating=dislike
|reason=This spell is trying to do a lot. It wants to simulate a whirlpool made of earth or floor instead of water and it wants it to be appropriate as a 4th level spell. Which is a tall order. So it has to jump through a lot hoops to get that way and turns into a really big wall of text. A bunch of the wall is relevant (if somewhat long due to the author's style), but it's still a wall of text and a lot of hoops. As a result, it is one of the longest spells I have ever read.

If you can get past all that (and you'd be forgiven for not succeeding) it's probably okay numerically. It's somewhat hard to call a balance on it because of all the hoops though. And you're unlikely to ever cast it outside of an ambush or while undetected because of the 4 round cast time. Whatever. My main problem with the spell isn't those things, though they certainly factor in, but the actual effect. 4th level spells are not strong enough to pay for a whirl-earth effect IMO. 4th level has earth stuff like ''stone shape''. 5th level has ''passwall'', the sort of thing you'd need to make enough empty space for your whirl-earth. 6th level has ''move earth'', the first spell that seems about on par with this one. The 4 round cast time and other hoops are probably an attempt to work around that, but it just doesn't work for me or seem worth the complexity. YMMV.
}}
{{Rating |rater=Surgo
|rating=dislike
|reason=The text of this spell is actually longer than the entirety of my [[Mana-Based Spellcasting (3.5e Variant Rule)|Mana-Based Spellcasting]] system.
}}

{{Rating |rater=Franken Kesey
|rating=Neutral
|reason=Want to favor this so much, but the complexity is getting in the way. Fix, and will give 4 out of 4. 
}}

Why is this still in the main navigation when it is community opposed?--[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 20:58, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

== Wall of Text ==

When I scroll down, I can see a page worth of pure words. Spells should be punchier and more to-the-point than that. Please truncate, and probably take out a few of those minor exceptions you like too much.

'''tl;dr:''' tl;dr --[[User:Foxwarrior|Foxwarrior]] ([[User talk:Foxwarrior|talk]]) 21:07, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

:It'd probably help if I could use tables, but I'm not even trying to pull that off while editing from my iPad. (At my current location (my grandfather's house), my computer's ability to connect to the Internet is... very poor.) And the exceptions help to provide more clarity on the spell's function. (That, and they more-or-less realistically represent how people might react to this spell.) --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 23:05, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

::I would suggest that you start the paring down by removing the paragraph where I save vs. stun initially. Any spell or effect that tells me how my character responds had better have actual magic / whatever behind it. Telling me that I lose a round looking at the fancy new magical effect in front of me is otherwise straight up bullshit given all of the other random magical effects I could have been exposed to instead. That you have a really complicated mechanic for it and backup checks to avoid it is just extra annoying.

::A bunch of other stuff could probably go too (probably, I didn't read even most of it... I was annoyed at the "this spell doesn't stun you, but you're stunned anyway" stunning thing and then quit reading when you listed an 80+ balance DC in a 4th level spell that could see use against 7th level characters), but I need to complain about technical bits first. Evocation? This isn't making energy from nothing, it's modifying existing stuff. It seems much more transmutation-y. And the level? Sor/Wiz 4 for a ridiculous land whirlpool? What the hell? It's got a larger volume and longer duration than ''move earth'', a spell that also modified existing land formations, and is two levels lower than it. I don't know if the effect is somehow appropriate for a 4 mechanically, but it's nowhere near appropriate in terms of fluff given the other level 4 spells that could plausibly be compared to this, like ''stone shape''. Even ''maelstrom'' in the spell compendium (which you seem to like referencing, so I'll do the same) is a Druid 8 Conjuration spell that affects water only. Seriously, what the hell dude?  - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  03:03, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

:::This spell is supposed to be weaker than ''maelstrom'', but I didn't have the Spell Compendium on hand when I wrote this. I do now, so I'll do a power comparison and then blunt the power if I overdid it for this one. And the Will save is something I threw in because I figured "even in a world where magic exists, people are probably going to go "WTF" at a whirlpool on '''dry land'''." --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 03:47, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

::::Today, [[Eye-Catching Toast (3.5e Equipment)|my breakfast tried to murder me]] so I [[Suddenly Train (3.5e Spell)|hit it with a train.]]  Nothing is strange to me. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] ([[User talk:Eiji-kun|talk]]) 03:53, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

:::::Yeah... I don't buy that Luigifan. A Will save to avoid something is appropriate when it is '''being forced''' on you from outside, not just because something is wonderous and fantastical. Allow your players to express their wonderment and pass that on to their characters, but don't hamstring their characters needlessly. Wonderment does not equal standing there waiting for the thing to eat you unless it's part of the effect. And since it's been removed I won't harp on it any longer.

:::::As for the weaker version of ''maelstrom'', I don't think a version that works on earth is appropriate before 6th level when you can move similar quantities (in very different ways) with [[SRD:Move Earth|''move earth'']]. And you're going to need to pull the scaling area effect from the spell if you want to keep it weaker than its higher level fixed area counterpart. I'll withhold further criticism until I see what sort of rework you have in mind to make it less than the 8th level comparison, and until I have read it in full. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  04:23, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

::::::I extended the casting time and removed the scaling area effect. The area's half that of ''maelstrom''. ''Veles whirl'' doesn't do as much damage per round as ''maelstrom'' does, and it doesn't pull creatures into its area of effect like ''maelstrom'' does (once you're out, you're out unless someone shoves you back in). The damage does rival ''maelstrom'' in the center, but if you suck that badly at ''all'' of the ways you could get out (Swim, Climb, Escape Artist, Reflex saves, and Tumble are all options), you kind of deserve to be ground to a pulp. I think this spell's fair at 4th level. After all, it does take 4 rounds to cast; that's plenty of time for the opponents to realize that they ought to be wary (or to just kill the caster stone dead). Hell, I'm thinking of allowing creatures that study the caster during the casting time and succeed on a [[SRD:Spellcraft Skill|Spellcraft]] check to gain an insight bonus on the Reflex save, but that's kinda covered by [[Forewarned is Foreguarded (3.5e Feat)|Forewarned is Foreguarded]].

::::::As a side note, the Balance check was thrown in explicitly as something that an epic character (and ''only'' an epic character) might be able to pull off. Anyone who can balance on ''liquids'' or '''clouds''' can probably keep their balance when the ground beneath them goes utterly haywire. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 15:04, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

:::::::Your spell is still longer than it was when I said it was too long, though. --[[User:Foxwarrior|Foxwarrior]] ([[User talk:Foxwarrior|talk]]) 20:02, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

::::::::Well, I don't have any idea how to make it shorter... --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 03:30, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

== Brevity is the soul of Wit ==

Hey there, time to step in.  I appreciate all your work, and as before, you are a grammar machine.  I have noticed though, you're one wordy fellow.  It's ok, I understand that, but you really go excess.  I wanna help.  As they say, brevity is the soul of wit, and you can catch more flies with honey than potato salad.... or something.  This will kill two bears with one bad metaphor, so let's cut out the fat and see what we got.

----
This spell moves the earth as if it were fluid, turning it into a massive whirlpool of earth and stone.  This vortex is 5 feet wide at the base, up to 60 feet wide at the top, and 30 feet tall.  Creatures in the area must make a [[Reflex]] save or be trapped in the vortex, taking 1d4 + your spellcasting modifier ([[Int]], [[Wis]], or [[Cha]]) in magic bludgeoning nonlethal damage, and falling prone unable to move.  The terrain counts as extraordinary violent motion (DC 20) for Concentration checks.  A successful save negates the nonlethal damage and moves the creature to the nearest valid space outside the vortex.

Creatures trapped in the vortex get a [[Reflex]] save each round to act normally, otherwise they are dragged 5 feet closer to the center, taking damage and remaining prone and immobile.  If they reach the center they are ground violently by the earth, taking three times as much damage, and the damage is now lethal.  On a successful save they can move, but must succeed on a Climb or Swim check DC 10 + caster level to move through the swirling earth.

At the end of the spell duration, the ground returns to normal, possibly burying creatures trapped in the vortex in the ground.  Roll 1d6 to determine how they are buried.  If they were in the center of the vortex, roll 1d3+3.

TABLE HERE:
*1-Not buried, simply prone.
*2-Buried up to their feet.  They are not flatfooted but are not able to move.  They can pull themselves free in one move action with a DC 15 Strength check.
*3-Buried up to their knees. They are flatfooted.
*4-Buried up to their waist, They have use of their arms but are unable to move.  They are flatfooted.
*5-Buried up to their head, able to breath but unable to move or use somatic components.  They are flatfooted.
*6-Completely buried 30 feet under the earth.

This spell can also be cast on water surfaces to create a traditional whirlpool, using the same damage but not burying the creature afterwards.
----

I changed your mechanics slightly for sake of this.  The changes being how you end up buried at the end, and removing the chunkier aspects.  I also recommend a standard or 1 round action cast.  4 rounds means it will never be cast, not before the fighters step in and kill the enemy.  Now, feel free to steal this away.  You'll notice it's much much shorter and easier to read.  But I want to make sure you understand why I made it like so.  Let's go over the original.

===The Original (Or How I Learned to Love Brevity)===

This utterly bizarre spell temporarily erases the distinctions between earth and water in a highly localized region of space, causing a whirlpool to form in the ground. Yes, you read that right. A '''whirlpool'''. In ''the '''ground'''''. (You can cast this spell on water, too, if you want an old-fashioned ordinary whirlpool.)

:'''I find fluff does best when it's left in the fluff area, the italicized part.  You'll probably hear me say that a lot over the course of this.  That means we can keep the "this looks awesome" stuff for later.  We'll focus on getting the mechanics down.  Remember, when people look at your spell they'll be wanting to find the mechanics for it quickly.  That means minimize fluff and maximize crunch.  In rapid fire they should learn what this spell does, how far, how much, in what way, with what exceptions, and so on and so forth.  As such, this first part can be cut completely, except for saying "this is a whirlpool in the ground", which states what it is.'''

If cast on water, this spell forms a rather ordinary whirlpool. This acts just like the vortex ability of a Medium [[SRD:Water Elemental|water elemental]], with your caster-level substituting for all level-dependent variables except for DC, which is replaced with the spell's save DC (unless you have a feat such as [[Dynamic Potential (3.5e Feat)|Dynamic Potential]] that lets you substitute an HD-based DC for a spell's DC). However, the whirlpool cannot move from where you cast it, nor can it voluntarily release creatures until the spell ends.

:'''I've moved the part about making normal whirlpools down to the bottom in my example.  The reasoning is that its primary use is groundpools, so get everything groundpool-related out of the way first, then you can say, "if done on water, it makes a whirlpool as above, but water" and you won't need to explain or re-explain anything.  And here comes a persistent problem; keep the context to what your spell does and not other things.  Assume you're in a vacuum, if you will.  If someone has Dynamic Potential, they will already know how it affects this spell and so you don't need to re-clarify it again that Dynamic Potential works here and how it works.  You'll also see I cut out the part about linking to water elementals, as you already restart the mechanics and they are actually mostly different from the water elemental's vortex ability.  Even if it were the same though, I'd encourage you to keep your mechanics in the text rather than link to the elemental page and say "it's that" unless the description is unusually wordy or complicated.'''

If cast on land, this spell shows its real power. When you finish casting, the ground suddenly buckles and softens, and a small sinkhole (about 10 feet wide and 15 feet deep) opens up where you cast the spell. The sinkhole then instantly collapses in on itself and collapses into a whirlpool. On the round that the whirlpool opens, all creatures caught in the area must succeed on a [[SRD:Reflex|Reflex]] save to sprint away from the collapsing ground before the whirlpool fully forms. A creature that succeeds must escape from the spell's area on its next turn, using any means available to it (move actions, running, spellcasting, etc.), or else it gets stuck in the whirlpool regardless (though in its new location rather than wherever it was when the spell took effect). Creatures unable to move aren't even able to attempt the [[SRD:Reflex|Reflex]] save. Creatures that fail the [[SRD:Reflex|Reflex]] save or are unable to escape the whirlpool before it forms check fall [[SRD:Prone|prone]] and are caught up in the whirlpool, taking 1d4 + your spellcasting modifier ([[SRD:Intelligence|Intelligence]] for wizards, [[SRD:Wisdom|Widsom]] for clerics and druids, [[SRD:Charisma|Charisma]] for sorcerers) points of [[SRD:Nonlethal Damage|nonlethal damage]] each round that they are stuck in there. Victims are unable to move using any of their listed speeds - they cannot take move actions to move, nor may they [[SRD:Run|run]], [[SRD:Charge|charge]], [[SRD:Withdraw|withdraw]], take 5-foot steps, or take any other action that involves standing up, leaving the ground, or leaving their square (except for casting/manifesting teleportation effects). Attempting to cast or concentrate on a spell or manifest a power while in the whirlpool requires a [[SRD:Concentration Skill|Concentration]] check against a DC equal to 10 + spell level of the spell being cast + ½ of the previous damage taken, plus an additional DC 15 + spell level [[SRD:Concentration Skill|Concentration]] check due to the violent motion of the whirlpool; a failure on either check means that the spell or power fails and is wasted. Creatures caught in the whirlpool are allowed to make a [[SRD:Climb Skill|Climb]], [[SRD:Swim Skill|Swim]], [[SRD:Tumble Skill|Tumble]], or [[SRD:Escape Artist Skill|Escape Artist]] check or [[SRD:Reflex|Reflex]] save against the spell's DC as a full-round action on each of their turns in order to try to scramble out of the whirlpool. Creatures that fail on a check or save get dragged 5 feet towards the whirlpool's center, plus an additional 5 feet for every 5 points by which they failed the check/save (a failure of 5-9 would drag a creature 10 feet towards the whirlpool's center, a failure of 10-14 would drag a creature 15 feet towards the whirlpool's center, and so on and so forth). A success on the check/save allows the creature to hold its current position, or advance 5 feet towards the edge of the whirlpool for every 5 points by which it beat the DC. [[SRD:Swim Skill|Swim]] and [[SRD:Climb Skill|Climb]] skill checks take a -4 penalty unless the creature in question has a listed speed for that movement mode, while [[SRD:Reflex|Reflex]] saves and [[SRD:Tumble Skill|Tumble]] checks take a -6 penalty and [[SRD:Escape Artist Skill|Escape Artist]] checks take a -8 penalty (frantic squirming generally doesn't help anything other than a snake or worm crawl up a landslide, while escaping by tumbling or sheer reflexes requires a character to pull off gymnastics like the sort seen in [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYW7-hNXZlM the opening to Sonic CD]). A creature that does not try to scramble out of the whirlpool is automatically assumed to have rolled its lowest possible result on the check/save with the lowest modifier, and is dragged the appropriate distance towards the whirlpool's center. A creature cannot take 10 on a skill check to escape the whirpool by virtue of having an appropriate mode of movement; it needs to have some sort of feat, class ability, or special quality allowing it to take 10 in stressful situations (such as a rogue's skill mastery class feature).

:'''Now we get to the main event, the groundpool.  It's a wordy one too.  To start, the 10 x 15 sinkhole description doesn't appear to have a purpose since it immediately segways into the whirlpool part without apparent delay.  I went ahead and spoke about the crunch (What save do I need?  Oh, I need a Reflex save.), starting off with what happens if you fail (Nonlethal damage, prone, immobile), and then if you succeed (you move outside of the area of effect).  You don't need to say that they run, jump, hop, fly, teleport, fart, or spaghettirooni out of the way, that's assumed when you make a Reflex save that you used something to remove yourself from danger.  Likewise if you say they are "immobile", it automatically excludes all movement without them having to specify if they run, jump, fly, spaghetti, etc's out of there.'''

:'''Subsequently, you don't need to restate the rules for Concentration again unless they are unusual or special.  It can be assumed they use the default concentration rules concerning difficult or unsteady terrain and taking damage.  On that, I specified using the game term of "extraordinary violent motion" to make sure DMs knew what kind of unsteady terrain we're talking about.  When it came to the skill checks I did some simplifying; I could see you wanted them to use a skill check to free themselves from the vortex (assuming they could move at all).  I specified it to Climb and Swim (since tumbling didn't really make sense).  I didn't have to specify about avoiding the checks since when you have, say, a swim speed you actually still do need to make swim checks in unusual and turbulent conditions (which this is).  In fact, most swimmers have a default "You get a +8 racial bonus and can take 10" clause when they have a swim speed, further indicating that swim speed creatures still need to make the checks.  As expected from something with a natural swim speed, they are better at it than normal and I felt there was no reason to remove the take 10 clause.'''

A creature that winds up in the whirlpool's center is in big trouble &mdash; the swirling, churning land around it proceeds to grind it to a pulp. The hapless creature stops taking nonlethal damage, instead taking 3&times; that amount as lethal damage per round (treat this as the spell scoring a critical hit with a &times;3 damage multiplier). The center of the whirlpool also damages the victim's armor; the armor takes damage equal to ½ of the damage dealt to the wearer. The creature may continue attempting saves or checks to clamber out as described above, but the DC is increased by 10, as the victim is subjected to the full force of the whirlpool's pull. Failure has no major consequences, as the creature is already in the center. Once out of the center of the whirlpool, the creature stops taking lethal damage (and begins taking nonlethal damage), and must continue succeeding on checks/saves to avoid being pulled back into the whirlpool's center.

:'''You're notice I made it magic nonlethal and magic lethal damage subsequently.  It's a minor nitpick, but I always feel that magic effects like this should bypass DR/magic.  Some of my own opinion seeping through there.  Anyway, I cut out the fat.  The important part here is "you were taking damage, but now you're taking more damage".  Damaging armor is both unnecessary paperwork, unnecessary power, and clunky.  Do you know the hp and hardness of your armor?  Of course not, because typically armor is immune to sundering (the rare exception being the [[SRD:Bebilith|Bebilith's]] shenanigans).  Also due to power reasons I felt no need to damn them to an eternity in the center, as the need to swim/climb through the 30 foot distance to shore was enough, and if they've ended up in the center the likelyhood is that they've been failing their saves a lot anyway.  30 feet doesn't sound like much, but to a 30 move speed creature trying to swim, they'll probably need to make a successful double move action to get to shore.'''

Regardless of whether the spell was cast on water or on land, ''Veles whirl'' only lasts for one round per caster level. When it ends (including if it's dispelled), the magic fails slowly; the whirlpool slows down and stops over the course of 5 rounds, with each round of slowdown reducing the damage by 1/5 and reducing the DC to escape by 4 (these reductions are cumulative, maximizing at 4/5 less damage and a -20 reduction to the DC 4 rounds after the spell's duration expires). At the fifth round, the spell ends completely. For the water version, the waters calm down, as if a whirlpool was never there to begin with, and creatures that were still stuck in the whirlpool are now free to act. For the land version, the whirlpool collapses in on itself yet again, and the land rises up and folds in on itself to return to its original proportions (unlike [[SRD:Move Earth|''move earth'']], this spell doesn't permanently change the landscape). What happens to creatures at this point depends on what "zone" of the whirlpool they're in, these zones defined by distance from the center in terms of the whirlpool's radius. 

:'''I question the reason for the slowdown from swirling to stopped.  It's not a terrible idea, but is seems very unnecessary, especially since a battle is unlikely to last so long that you'll see the aftereffects come into play.  So I cut it.  Plus, it makes the following table unnecessary and we can go right towards the interesting idea introduced here; the idea that you might get stuck underground at spell's end.  I removed the concept of zones because of two things; one is that simplicity is king.  I could explain fireball as being a volume of fire which fills 500 liters, affects flammables in different ways, has rules for pressure differences, light flashes and eye spotting, damage to exposed skin, and effects with nonmagical fire.  It may be super realistic like this; and it also requires a degree in trig and calculus to do and will slow the game to a halt figuring out where on the burn index chart you end up.  Alternatively you could just say "20 foot radius, fire damage, don't sweat the details".  It's realism vs gamism, and I stress, when it comes to combat, strive for gamism.  The more simple you make it, the quicker your action is resolved, and ultimately the better the game flows.'''

{| class="zebra d20"
|+ Distance from center at spell's end
! Distance from center || class="left" | Result 
|- 
| > 4/5 || class="left" | Creatures within this zone are completely released, free to act normally on their next turn. 
|- 
| 4/5 > &times; > 3/5 || class="left" | Creatures within this zone are buried up to their ankles, taking 1d8&minus;3 points of [[SRD:Nonlethal Damage|nonlethal]] damage and becoming rooted to their square; such a creature is unable to move from its square until it succeeds on a DC 10 [[SRD:Strength|Strength]] check or DC 15 [[SRD:Escape Artist Skill|Escape Artist]] check (or uses a spell such as [[SRD:Teleport|''teleport'']] or [[SRD:Dimension Door|''dimension door'']] to change its position in space). It can still take any actions that don't involve moving from its square, still has its Dexterity bonus to AC (but its Dexterity is treated as being 2 points lower than it actually is, to a minimum of 10, for the purpose of determining AC), is still able to make Reflex saves (albeit at a -1 penalty), and is not considered [[SRD:Prone|prone]] or [[SRD:Helpless|helpless]]. 
|-
| 3/5 > &times; > 2/5 || class="left" | Creatures within this zone are buried up to their waist, taking 1d8 points of nonlethal damage and 1d8&minus;1 points of lethal damage and becoming rooted to their square; such a creature cannot take any actions involving the use of its legs, including movement, until it succeeds on a DC 14 [[SRD:Strength|Strength]] check or a DC 20 [[SRD:Escape Artist Skill|Escape Artist]] check to pull itself free as a full-round action (provoking attacks of opportunity). It also loses its Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a -8 penalty to [[SRD:Reflex|Reflex]] saves, and loses the benefits of evasion and improved evasion until it frees itself (it's also considered "half-prone", taking a -2 penalty to melee AC and gaining a +2 bonus to ranged AC, and it is not considered helpless).
|-
| 2/5 > &times; > 1/5 || class="left" | Creatures within this zone take 3d8+1 damage and are buried up to their necks; such a creature cannot take any actions that are not purely mental and cannot make attacks of opportunity until it digs itself out (see [[SRD:Dungeons#Cave-Ins and Collapses (CR 8)|"Cave-Ins and Collapses"]] and [[SRD:Earthquake|''earthquake'']] for details). A creature buried up to its neck is considered prone and helpless (-4 melee AC, +4 ranged AC, loses Dexterity bonus to AC, can't make Reflex saves).
|-
| 1/5 > &times; > 0 || class="left" | Creatures within this zone take 4d8+3 damage and are completely buried 20 feet beneath the ground's surface (see [[SRD:Dungeons#Cave-Ins and Collapses (CR 8)|"Cave-Ins and Collapses"]] and [[SRD:Earthquake|''earthquake'']] for details).
|-
| Center || class="left" | Creatures within this zone get viciously ground up by the earth closing in on itself; they must succeed on a [[SRD:Fortitude|Fortitude]] save or die instantly, as if caught in a fissure at the end of an [[SRD:Earthquake|''earthquake'']] spell. A creature that succeeds on this [[SRD:Fortitude|Fortitude]] save still takes 5d8+5 points of damage and is buried 30 feet beneath the ground's surface (see [[SRD:Dungeons#Cave-Ins and Collapses (CR 8)|"Cave-Ins and Collapses"]] and [[SRD:Earthquake|''earthquake'']] for details).
|}

:'''This brings me to the second point why I changed it.  It's a whirlpool and you're swirling about chaotically so you're probably going to be in a random position at its end.  I replaced the table with one of my own, a d6 roll with various stats of being buried alive.  Those in the center face a stronger penalty of basically being 4, 5, or 6 only.  Beyond that, we don't need any further granularity.  Keeping it simple, after all.'''

These descriptions of burial assume that the sizes of the victims range from Small to Large; for anything smaller or larger, the DM may alter degrees of burial (and their consequences) as he deems fit. Generally, smaller creatures suffer worse consequences and larger creatures suffer less severe consequences (in fact, Gargantuan and Colossal creatures don't even really ''fit'' in the whirlpool's center). All damage dealt by this spell's land version is physical, and therefore can be reduced by [[SRD:Damage Reduction|damage reduction]], but it counts as magic and bludgeoning for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction. (The exception is being in the center of the whirlpool before it collapses; this damage counts as piercing, slashing, bludgeoning, and magic for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction.) An object's [[SRD:Hardness|hardness]] is capable of reducing the damage dealt by the whirlpool's center, unless adamantine ore was used as a material component (see below). This is also true of armor being worn by a creature in the whirlpool's center. Objects do not take damage from any aspect of the spell except the whirlpool's center, even during the whirlpool's collapse.

:'''This is part of the unnecessary detail stuff.  I don't want to have to figure out that the 4'2" dwarf I captured was pushed 3'1" feet underground and therefore that means he's up to his chest, unless he was tipped on his side on a Tuesday and the stars are right when you carry the two when dividing by pi and oh god I've gone cross eyed.  ...seriously though, it's ok to disregard the size.  They got buried deeper than normal?  They're Huge, they are heavy, they clearly sunk while being tossed about.  Also, one thing I didn't notice is that you did actually specify it as magic bludgeoning damage.  Good for you for the foresight.  Anyway, you don't need to explain that DR and hardness applies normally.  If they have DR or hardness, there's already rules for that and you're just restating the obvious.'''

If the whirlpool ends up within an [[SRD:Antimagic Field|''antimagic field'']], it halts immediately, but a land-based whirlpool doesn't collapse in on itself as described above. The whirlpool (of either kind) immediately resumes if it still has part of its duration remaining when the ''antimagic field'' goes away. If not, a water-based whirlpool simply doesn't reappear, while a land-based whirlpool immediately collapses in on itself as described above. The whirlpool won't collapse until the ''antimagic field'' goes away. While suppressed, a land-based whirlpool is still a 25-50 degree slope (steepness is inversely proportional to distance from the center) and difficult terrain. Each square of movement away from the whirlpool's center costs 3 squares of movement to proceed (movement cost is doubled twice, but each doubling is equivalent to a tripling).

:'''I trimmed this since I didn't think it needed specifying.  The magic is suppressed and presumably this would suppress the swirling rock, making it normal rock.  Incidentally, clever strategy there... trap them, then invoke an artificial end to the whirlpool with an AMF, trapping them in rock AND an AMF.  Didn't get trapped?  Unsuppress and try again.  Aaaanyway.  This can be trimmed, since its pretty much covered and more logically consistant under the description for antimagic field, and its already difficult terrain.  There isn't a compelling reason to make it moreso.'''

A land-based whirlpool can be made with this spell on ''any'' solid surface, even one suspended in midair that isn't thick enough to support the whirlpool's depth (such as a wooden balcony in the canopy of a forest). In such a case, the spell still works exactly as described above, with the exception of what happens when it ends. The DCs to extricate oneself from partial burial are reduced by up to 5 (depending on the platform's thickness), a creature buried up to its neck may wind up dangling from the platform's underside (I'll leave it up to the DM to determine what happens because of ''that'', but I'm sure it'll be utterly hilarious to any onlookers, at least until the victim starts choking), and any creature that would be "buried" in midair will wind up, well, "buried" in midair &mdash; if it can't fly, then it'll fall instead (taking the appropriate amount of falling damage upon impact with the solid surface beneath it). However, a creature being "buried" in midair is also automatically assumed to have made its [[SRD:Fortitude|Fortitude]] save to avoid being instantly killed, as there was no ground available to smash it to death in the first place.

:'''I removed this less because it was wordy and more because I couldn't quite grasp intent.  In theory if you make a whirlpool on a surface with a lack of ground 30 feet deep, you don't get a whirlpool.  You get a hole.  You could go around it by saying the whirlpool forms an extradimensional space, so you can have a 30 foot deep swirl on a flat sheet of paper and it still works, but since I don't know your intent here, I can't say.  There's no huge loss not including it though.'''

Casting ''Veles whirl'' is difficult on the Inner Planes. It may function on the [[SRD:Elemental Plane of Earth|Elemental Plane of Earth]] if you succeed on a DC 24 [[SRD:Spellcraft Skill|Spellcraft]] check (since only one of its two elements is naturally present). It also may function on the Elemental Plane of Water with a DC 20 [[SRD:Spellcraft Skill|Spellcraft]] check (it's easier to cast it without earth than it is without water). However, no [[SRD:Spellcraft Skill|Spellcraft]] check result can allow ''Veles whirl'' to function on the [[SRD:Elemental Plane of Fire|Elemental Plane of Fire]], the [[SRD:Elemental Plane of Air|Elemental Plane of Air]], or any other strongly air-dominant or fire-dominant plane, due to an opposing element reigning supreme. It only works on the [[SRD:Positive Energy Plane|Positive Energy Plane]] if you can succeed on a DC 28 [[SRD:Spellcraft Skill|Spellcraft]] check, as water and earth are both scarcely present; however, as the space of the Positive Energy plane behaves in many ways like a liquid, you can cast ''Veles whirl'' at basically any point in space. The same [[SRD:Spellcraft Skill|Spellcraft]] check (with a DC of 28) is required on the [[SRD:Negative Energy Plane|Negative Energy Plane]], but you actually need to find a solid or liquid surface to cast it on (even a voidstone will suffice, though considering how deadly a voidstone is already, this is nigh-useless).

:'''I see no need to make specifics on extraplanar casting since most planes already have rules for how spells interact on them.  Positive energy plane supercharges positive energy and suppressess negative.  Shadow plane is pro-shadow and anti-light.  Earth likes earth, hates air, etc etc.  Unless there's a reason to make it different, I don't think it should be here.'''

Casting ''Veles whirl'' on the Outer Planes is just like casting it on the Material Plane (as altered by the traits of the plane in question, such as Limbo's wild magic), with the exception of regions that are strongly element-dominant. Water-dominant areas are treated like the Elemental Plane of Water. Earth-dominant areas are treated like the Elemental Plane of Earth. Air-dominant areas are treated like the Elemental Plane of Air. Fire-dominant areas are treated like the Elemental Plane of Fire. Positive-dominant areas are treated like the Positive Energy Plane (except that you may actually need to find a solid or liquid surface). Negative-dominant areas are treated like the Negative Energy Plane. Minor element dominance doesn't affect ''Veles whirl'' any more or less than it'd affect any other spell with its descriptors (Water and Earth).

:'''As above, so below.  Same thing here.'''

Though this spell refers to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veles_(god) Veles], Slavic god of water and earth, you may substitute whatever god is most appropriate for your campaign. Change the name of the spell accordingly. Whichever deity you choose to associate this spell with, it is ''only'' available to worshippers of that deity.

:'''Also unnecessary.  Many spells have some campaign specific fluff to them.  Bigby's Hands spells actually have a rich history with the NPC wizard Bigsby in like Faerun or Ravenloft or something.  However, unless you're playing there you don't care that Mage's Magnificent Mansion was made my Mordikein via channeling the power of oompa loompa via the wuckachuckafuk rod of light.  Those who aren't in Slavic-god-campaign setting will just use it as "That groundpool spell" and not worry where it comes from.  The DM will place their own restrictions on when, where, and how the spell is available.'''

''Material Component:'' A chunk of adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver ore worth at least 100 gp, or a chunk of matter taken from a strongly-aligned Outer Plane (such as Mechanus, Limbo, Hades, or Elysium). Note that you may use any number of these material components, and all of them are '''''completely optional'''''. The purpose of providing a material component for this spell is to enable the (land-based) whirlpool to bypass the corresponding type of damage reduction.

:'''You can shorten this.  The DR thing is nice, but not strictly needed.'''

''Focus:'' A silver holy symbol of [http://en.Wikipedia.org/wiki/Veles_(god) Veles] costing 3,000 gp. For a cleric or druid, this holy symbol can be the same divine focus used to cast your other spells, but it must be made of silver and cost at least 3,000 gp in order to cast ''Veles whirl''.

:'''That's a pricy focus.  Anyway, you just need to say "Fluffity fluffy focus costing 3000g." and leave it at that.'''

----

Hopefully this will help you in your future, wordy endevours. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] ([[User talk:Eiji-kun|talk]]) 08:48, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

== Reboot ==

I'm planning on rebooting this spell based on the suggestions that have been made in the past. But I do kinda like the original, and I don't want the new version to have the baggage of this old version, which is why I've moved it to a separate page. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 11:31, 14 November 2017 (MST)

: The problem is that this still shows up in the mainspace, and if you take off the tags it becomes an orphaned article. If you want to keep it, I recommend sandboxing it, and linking to the sandbox somewhere, whether it's in your own page or as a link on the main page of the redone article. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 11:36, 14 November 2017 (MST)

:: That is precisely what I intend to do. I haven't made the reboot yet because it would involve extensive copy-pasting; I am currently typing from my smartphone, a fairly old Blackberry model, and it can't handle gigantic blocks of text (I have enough trouble dealing with Java script). Then when I get home, I have a bunch of daily bonuses to collect on my iPad, a dog to play with... Look, I don't want this old version popping up in the mainspace either. I only put it here so it can be a subpage of the main article once I reboot it, which I should get done by the end of the day, but it may take a few hours. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 12:50, 14 November 2017 (MST)
Disliked	Tarkisflux +, Surgo + and Franken Kesey +
Opposed	Undead Knave +, Ganteka Future +, Leziad +, Eiji-kun +, Spanambula + and Dragonexx +