Difference between revisions of "Talk:Way of the Dragon (5e Subclass)"

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(Way too powerful.)
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}}== A Strong First Draft ==
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Latest revision as of 13:40, 9 February 2020


Rlyehable dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.
The reason listed does not sufficiently justify the rating, and the rater has not responded to a request for additional information.
Too powerful

A Strong First Draft

I'm really uncomfortable with the goals of Dragonfire Ki Adept. There aren't any printed monk archetypes that can either recover ki or reduce baseline ki costs. Functionally, I think the language is a bit underspecified: 'ability' is vague and the duration is unstated. I think your intention was something like "The first time you would spend ki on a feature other than Empty Body or Dragon's Fury during your next turn, reduce the cost by one for each consecutive turn spent incapacitated in this way."

Clarified Dragonfire Ki Adept, hopefully it makes sense now, and having looked at the monk abilities, I don't think there's any that you'd generally want to waste a turn reducing to 0 ki. --Ghostwheel (talk) 04:26, 19 April 2019 (MDT)

Dragon's Ki Blast feels like it has too many variables controlling scaling. You're improving the damage die with Martial Arts, AND the base number of dice for the 2 ki cost AND the maximum you can spend goes up. If you compare this with something like Sweeping Cinder Strike or Searing Arc Strike; it may start out behind both, but rapidly overtakes them. Ki Blast outruns the damage of Burning Hands for the same cost, and competes with Searing Arc Strike without using a bonus action.

On both of these features, I'm not a fan of the mechanic of accepting a condition in exchange for a benefit. The practical use is just to wait until you'd be suffering that condition (or worse) anyway and get the free boost; using it otherwise just reads to me as a mistake.

I want this to be scaling with monk level, able to be boosted more, and while not as good as higher level spells, not a complete waste of time to use. I'd be okay with simplifying the formula for damage, do you have any suggestions on how to go about doing that? Perhaps start at base 4d6, increase by 2d6 every time your martial arts die increases, and be able to add key points with every point adding another 2d6, up to a maximum of your original total? --Ghostwheel (talk) 04:26, 19 April 2019 (MDT)
I think it's in a better place now, though I'd point out you can just say "At 11th level" rather than "When your Martial Arts die increases to 1d8". Vaegrim (talk) 14:14, 25 April 2019 (MDT)

I'm not particularly excited about Rapid Movement. You spend 2 ki above the cost of a flurry to keep your bonus action, make a short range teleport, and (until 11th level) deal an extra 3 DPR. I feel like you've gotten overly invested in the visual here, and the functional benefits just don't make these maneuvers worthwhile. You can almost certainly take the bonus action cost off the save-vs-shove effect, that makes it a cleaner comparison to Stunning Strike (though I still wouldn't use it much, because Stunning Strike).

It actually adds 3.5 + your str/dex. You're basically using Step of the Wind, Flurry of Blows, increasing your effective movement for that turn, and keeping your bonus action for a total of 3 ki, which I feel is fine, and I've seen it used to good effect in games. --Ghostwheel (talk) 04:26, 19 April 2019 (MDT)
I had calculated presuming the monk was using their best damage monk weapon to make the attacks: a 1d8 spear or quarterstaff. Since 2 of the 4 attacks would have been unarmed strikes in a flurry, the additional DPR is the difference between an unarmed strike (1d6+dex/str) and a spear/quarterstaff (1d8+dex/str). Thats an average DPR bonus of +1 per attack, 2 additional damage total. How did you get 3.5? You didn't take the Attack action so it can't combine with Martial Arts/FoB. I guess you could wield something other than a Monk weapon, but I don't think that's what you intended to encourage. Vaegrim (talk) 14:14, 25 April 2019 (MDT)

11th level is a legit place to learn to fly, it's where the elemental monk gets Ride the Wind after all. The energy blasts attack of Dragon Aspect is more troubling though. It's clearly stepping on the thematic toes of the Sun Soul monk, suddenly prioritizes Wisdom, and largely obsoletes the multi-attack of Rapid Movement. It actually obsoletes a lot of the archetype, four 100 ft ranged attacks + bonus action disengage/dash for 2 ki is a pretty tough act to follow (literally, you'll be hard to catch). It's also largely incompatible with anything else this archetype was doing.

Do you think it should be str/dex-based rather than wis-based? That doesn't feel right thematically... Also, D&D has always had a problem with characters that can kite--just look at the classic horse archer. And if you do something like that every round, you're going to hemorrhage ki points very quickly. --Ghostwheel (talk) 04:26, 19 April 2019 (MDT)

I'm mostly satisfied with Dragon's Fury in a vacuum; bonus action haste for 4 ki is borderline, but probably okay since it's self only and the capstone. But the extra attack doesn't really work well with the Dragon Aspect's laser barrage, and it's deliberately incompatible with Ki Adept.

It's boosting your physical abilities, not your ki, which is why I don't see that it not working with Dragon Aspect as a problem. --Ghostwheel (talk) 04:26, 19 April 2019 (MDT)

I think you could stand to streamline this archetype a lot: cut down some of the multi-part features, focus on a coherent vision of how it behaves, establish more thematic and mechanical distance from the Sun Soul. Vaegrim (talk) 18:26, 18 April 2019 (MDT)

If it's not obvious, it's a D&D version of Dragonball Z during the first Vegata Saga. A player in a game I'm in asked for a DBZ type character, to which I said, "Say no more, fam," and this was the product. Thus far he's... I think Barbarian 2 / Monk 11 with this archetype, basing his character loosely on Nappa, and looking at the effects of the archetype itself, the only problem we've had was remembering how Dragon Ki Blast calculates damage, which is why I'm open to streamlining it. That said, if you keep that theme in mind, I think it works decently, but again, I'm open to suggestions, particularly on how to streamline Dragon Ki Blast. --Ghostwheel (talk) 04:26, 19 April 2019 (MDT)

Way too powerful.[edit]

Dragonfire Ki Adept. This makes 6 ki abilities cost 0 ki cost. It would be more simple and balanced to just have it generate 1 ki point.

Dragon Ki Blast. At a cost of 1 ki (adjusted by the dragonfire ki adept, above) gives an AOE attack 100' long doing 2d6 damage. And it is scales?

Rapid Movement. 2 ki (adjusted) to make 4 ranged attacks and a teleport?! It is unclear if this is an Attack action; if so then you could flurry of blows. Additionally you can spend 0 ki points (adjusted) to force a save or be pushed; and if pushed you get a free Disengage move to become adjacent?! And this happens with each successful attack?!

Dragon Aspect. 1 ki point (adjusted) to make a flying Dash movement with 0 ki points (adjusted) to susstain?! And spend 0 ki points (adjusted) to gain 4 ranged attacks?

Perhaps the attacks should be seperated from Rapid Movement and Dragon Aspect?

Ranged strike. Beginning at 6th level you may spend 2 ki points to use your Attack action to make two ranged spell attacks (Wisdom is your spell ability, range 100 ft., one target, 2d6 force damage). You may spend 1 additional ki point to use your bonus action to make two more of these ranged spell attacks.
Rapid Movement. Starting at 6th level you may spend 1 ki point to gain Teleport speed equal to your walking speed until the start of your next turn. To teleport you must be able to see the destination space and that space must be unoccupied. Teleporting does not provoke Opprotunity Attacks.
Dragon Aspect. You may spend 1 ki point to gain a flying speed equal to your walking speed until the start of your next turn.

--Rlyehable (talk) 18:52, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

You... realize that Dragonfire Ki Adept takes your action to do, right? So... you spend a round doing basically nothing and not even moving to reduce an ability next turn by one. How do you figure that's overpowered?
Dragonfire Ki Blast - this requires 2 ki points first of all. Second... you think 2d6 damage on the worst area shape is powerful? Really?? And on top of that, the scaling doesn't add much damage for the cost of more ki. Ki that you could easily use for much stronger abilities such as Stunning Strike.
I get the strong feeling that you completely ignored all of the downsides of the base ability, and are basing all of your comments on this misperception. I invite you to re-read the ability. --Ghostwheel (talk) 19:01, 6 February 2020 (UTC)