View source for Talk:White Mage (3.5e Class)

== Ratings ==

{{Rating |rater=Trace Chaos
|rating=favor
|reason=Sickass Laser Spam! And also surprisingly good balance if you look at it.
}}

{{Rating| |rater=Eiji-kun |rating=oppose |reason=Having seen this actually in action, I can say with confidence that it indeed breaks Wizard level, flying into Planar Shepard levels.  As above people have pointed out, it is way too much of everything forever in a single class, and just ends up being a mechanical Mary Sue.  On the flipside, it did inspire me to make the [[White Magus (3.5e Class)|White Magus]] in response to just how silly this was.  White Mage, I am dissapplushie.

EDIT: As time goes on my opinion of this article sours.  Seriously, no balance whatsoever.
}}

{{Rating| |rater=Franken Kesey |rating=oppose |reason=The first three levels alone make it wizard++ then it gets exponentially more over powered. The abilities do not seam to have any central focus or theme, and there is little explanation as to why the player gets them. Some of the abilities (like Mettle) do not explain exactly what they do. The feature titles show lazy writing. This article is all around poorly designed.
}}


{{Rating |rater=Surgo |rating=neutral |reason=I really don't get what everyone says about this being "planar shepherd level". I've actually played a planar shepherd before, as well as a white mage, and the two aren't comparable at all. The problem is really has is that it removes a lot of tension from combat which, regardless of the power level, isn't very good for the game.
}}

{{Rating |rater=The-Marksman
|rating=Dislike
|reason=This is far too powerful, especially the basically immortality abilities. There are aspects of this which are good, but the immunities arnt necessary and only serve to over power the class even more. Anyone who thinks that this class isn't over powered has obviously become so accustomed to playing at Very High balance level that they've forgotten what the SRD balance levels are all about. Compare this to any class or prestige class in any Wizards book and you'll quickly realize this goes off the deep end.

Also minor personal note, I'm not a big fan of silly parody flavor text in the ability section that doesn't match the overall flavor of the class, like "At this point the White Mage has pretty much won D&D" or "back from the dead without that even being a big deal." and Friggin' Lasers, Pew Pew a Wolverine reference as ability names, makes the suspension of disbelief too hard when it doesn't match the existing flavor of the class in any way shape or form what-so-ever.
}}

{{Rating|rater=Leziad 
|rating=dislike 
|reason= It never die, ever (past a certain level of course). I think that just anticlimatic and remove a lot of tension from battle.
}}

{{Rating|rater=Undead Knave |rating=dislike |reason=I kinda want to like this article, but I feel unable to do so.  The main reason for this is how incredibly strong it is in comparison even to a lot of other Wizard level things.  While those on the Wiki know how much I enjoy Tome material, it seems as if Tome has started to mimic WotC at a higher average balance point.  There are some options which end up being much weaker in comparison to others which was the very thing that was the purpose of being fixed.  This class is fun to play, but not to run for, so - this being a collaborative game - I cannot rate this better.
}}

: I wish I didn't, but this is how I feel about most wizard-level classes :-( --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 08:03, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

{{Rating |rater=Foxwarrior |rating=dislike |reason=An unkillable healer would be a pretty cool character to have in a party, and an unkillable shooter would make an interesting opponent which players would have to plan carefully to defeat, but this is an unkillable killer, healer, and full caster, basically on par with a normal character ''before'' you add in the immunity to status effects and damage.
}}



== Thanks ==

Thanks for uploading this, yo. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 03:24, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

== Lol Wut? ==

"Aspect of the Wolverine".  ....uh... uhhhh..... lol?

Actually after I saw that I looked at some of the other powers closer, BAB and saves and all.  Parody class or serious attempt, if serious, I got some advice for ya. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji Hyrule]] 04:57, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

: Gotta agree with the above trope--err, I mean, poster on this one. The ability to access any divine/arcane PrC (and the extra spells that can easily come along with that) as well as a few other class abilities I noticed seem to be hands-and-feet above rogue-level. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 05:19, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

::@AotWolverine: Yeah, I just went silly there and duplicated the worst of the X-Men character. This is a serious class pre-20, though. I should probably reduce it to a "less-than-the-%$*(ing Tarrasque" level anyway.
::@Any arcane/divine PrC: How is this problematic? They have the ability to qualify for most PrCs a Sorcerer or Favored Soul could plausibly take, but their spell selection is "Abjurations, Healing spells, some subpar Evocations". The strongest boost I see this enabling is "White Mage/Radiant Servant"... I'm having trouble seeing a problem with heavy-duty healing powers you mostly have anyway and slightly better subpar Evocations.
::@Other abilities: I haven't actually run the SGT on this class at levels 7, 10, and 15, and I haven't done two-character test runs, so it's possible that post-5 things and synergy need some revision. If you can see anything specific that's overpowering, or even better want to run the tests, I'd love to hear about it. [[User:Quantumboost|Quantumboost]] 06:41, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

::: For the PrCs, some that come to mind include, but aren't limited to... Rainbow Servant, Mage of the Arcane Order (via Arcane Preperation), Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Incantatrix, Recaster, Dweomerkeeper, and a few others that I don't remember off-hand. (Since you qualify for all of these what with being able to cast level X spells, either arcane or divine, as suits you, right? Or did I miss something?) --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 07:56, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

::::And most of those PrCs are problematic and broken on their own, so what's the problem? That's like arguing any arcane class is broken just because it can go into Incantatrix. It's a really unfair argument. -Karr

::::: Fair enough--though the prospect of having a PC going Incantatrix / Dweomerkeeper makes me go "ugh". Still, probably more of a problem with the PrCs, and less with the actual class. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 23:41, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

:::: Yeah, as far as PrCs are concerned, you're able to cast level X spells of either arcane or divine, or both, as suits you. And you can't get more than one class level equivalent even if the PrC would let you do so. [[User:Quantumboost|Quantumboost]] 09:48, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

== SGT ==

Thought I'd see how the class faired against the level 10 SGT; here goes:
*Magical rune traps - the white mage has more than enough healing to deal with almost any number of traps. --Win
*Fire giant - while the fire giant has decent HP and damage, it needs to get close to make use of them. The white mage should have enough HP to weather a round or two of attacks until they can get close enough and plane shift (DC 23-25) the fire giant to the abyss. --Win
*Young Blue Dragon - This could prove problematic at first as the blue dragon does strafing runs with his breath weapon in an attempt to kill the white mage through attrition; however, the white mage can create a wall of force above them, forcing the dragon to come down into melee. From there, Freedom of Movement can be used to make sure grappling won't be an issue and with the right protective spells the dragon won't be able to melee attack the white mage either. A few castings of Plane Shift and poof the dragon goes once he fails one of the saves. --Win
::Wall of Force is 1/round level, so not much of a worry for the Dragon who can wait it out. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 18:19, December 25, 2009 (UTC)
::: Sure, that could work. Another way to win is to blast the dragon with Searing Light rays every time it passes by, and healing up during the 1d4+1 rounds that it takes for the dragon to recharge its weapon. Furthermore, with Flashes of Light and Pew Pew, the White Mage can easily cast this spell 3x in one round, dealing 15d8 damage (one-third of the dragon's life in a single round). --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 18:57, December 25, 2009 (UTC)
*Bebilith - same deal, except even the bebilith's most potent attack, its poison, is negated through a swift action by the white mage. --Win
*Vrock - once again the same, and any pal the vrock chooses to summon can be hedged out through Magic Circle vs. Evil. --Win
*Mind Flayers - with the high will base save as well as the high wisdom (casting stat), the white mage should have no problem resisting the mind blasts. Then rinse-repeat with the plane shifts. --Win
*Evil Necromancer - Turn Undead & Undead to Death takes care of the necromancer's minions, and we can pick up Reciprocal Gyre (CA) not for the damage, but for the stun effect. Dazing for 1d6 rounds spells doom for the necromancer who's unable to do anything. --Win
*6 trolls - this could be problematic, but the White Mage can keep themselves healed up with quick action healings, keep themselves un-grappled through Freedom of Movement, and send 4-5 of the trolls to the abyss without a problem, taking time to kill the last two with more mundane damage through Searing Light and the like --Win
*Horde of shadows - Turn Undead, quick healing spells. 'Nuff said. --Win
This is theoretical, of course, but I think that an actual test against the above monsters using the same tactics (or similar ones) would arrive at about the same conclusion. Thoughts? --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 10:14, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

::Looks like reasonable strategy; I'll check out the specifics of the battles and see how much needs to be removed/shunted to later levels. Thanks. [[User:Quantumboost|Quantumboost]] 23:22, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

:::Okay, I've removed plane shift from the spell list (there shouldn't be any SoD effects on there, and apparently temporary idiocy made me forget that plane shift did that) and modified Pew Pew and slightly depowered Friggin' Lasers. Will try to get an SGT at 10th with the modified abilities up. [[User:Quantumboost|Quantumboost]] 23:51, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

::::Is there any opposition to making this a wizard-level class (ie let's not nerf it too much, though it probably needed a little as shown above)? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 05:42, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

:::::I'm not opposed to it. I'm still going to work towards an SGT balance point, but if you think a Wizard point reflects it better, go ahead. [[User:Quantumboost|Quantumboost]] 07:08, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

::::::I realized that since the White Mage breaks when it even has ''plane shift'' it'll probably break when it has ''any'' SoD... and it can pick some up with Attune Sphere or Attune Domain (Death or Dominion at the very least). I'm going to have to rework this with that accounted for then - and hopefully that'll compensate for a lot of the problems that would probably show up with a 2-person team as well. [[User:Quantumboost|Quantumboost]] 05:46, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

:::::::I don't think it's a huge problem -- wizard level, not better than a wizard, better than being a healbot. Maybe Plane Shift should even be put back on the spell list. While we're at it, I'd kind of want to put Pew Pew back the way it was. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 16:02, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

== Complete/Incomplete? ==

I've filled out the saves/BAB and I *think* I've filled out the missing abilites; is there something more I need to do to get the "Incomplete" tag removed? [[User:Quantumboost|Quantumboost]] 17:01, January 4, 2010 (UTC)

:I did it. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 00:52, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

::Cool, thanks much. [[User:Quantumboost|Quantumboost]] 22:07, January 7, 2010 (UTC)

:::Is there anything left to do here? Is it balanced in a way you like? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 15:57, January 17, 2010 (UTC)

== Changes ==

Were the offense nerfs really necessary? The class has to at least be fun to play, and I don't think having the good offense made the class "too good". [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 03:46, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

:I suppose I could instead, say, change Instant Ward to not apply to AC - the big deal was, it was doing too well on the SGT (6 wins of which 4 were definite, 3 losses) and the trolls were basically helpless against a "shield" of blistering radiance on top of self-healing.
:Actually, I probably should change Instant Ward anyway - I'd prefer the White Mage lose to damage spikes, since it's not going down to SoDs very often and attrition is iffy at the best of times. [[User:Quantumboost|Quantumboost]] 04:06, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

::It's really really good on the SGT, but so is the Cleric, and the Tome Fighter. I don't think it's ''too'' good. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 04:08, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

:::Hm. Alright, I'll avoid adding ''blistering radiance'' back in, but the CL bonus/lucent lance/[Light] advanced training are probably fine for now. [[User:Quantumboost|Quantumboost]] 04:25, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

::::So I wanted to play one of these with the offense added back in, and it was pointed out to me that at level 11 it's pretty nuts because [[SRD:Heal|Heal]] is a great spell and you can cast it several times a round. That's great for the Cures, not so good for [[SRD:Heal|Heal]]. Maybe Pew Pew can only effect Cures and [Light] spells, as opposed to Healing spells in general. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 15:54, January 20, 2010 (UTC)

:::::Okay, Surgo and I had a chat over IM. Pew Pew is now [Light] and specifically Cure spells, Extra Life was deemed a) useless because it's Raise Dead and b) redundant due to revenance + revivify. Added plane shift back onto the spell list, though it's willing-only at the moment. Moar dataz are required.

== More Ability Comments ==

I'll put them here as they come to me. First is Ascension -- I imagine a lot of White Mages will be Aasimars for the good synergy, so that ability is pretty much a do-nothing there. Intentional?

Also, Magic Hands -- the only ability in the class that appears to fire off of Wisdom instead of Charisma. Again, intentional? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 17:21, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

:Oh man, I just noticed the spell DC was Wisdom-based and bonus spells are Charisma-based. Is that strictly necessary? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 17:22, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

::It's the same reason as for the Elementalist - the White Mage has two different attributes that it wants. It's to avoid the complete SADness of Wizards. Magic Hands going off Wisdom is intentional for the same reason. Ascension gives out the Outsider type, but Aasimar White Mages still benefit from the immunity to petrification. The type change (for non-Aasimar) is pretty much just flavoring. [[User:Quantumboost|Quantumboost]] 17:40, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

:::Got it, though it seems like a real double-gimp to give them both dual spellcasting stats as well as staggered Sorcerer spellcasting. Also, I noticed the Sun domain spells (well, most of them) were already on the spell list. Again, intentional? While on the topic of spells, I think Prismatic Spray would be a pretty thematic spell to pick up at level 13 but it's impossible to get because it's not [Light]. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] 18:54, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

::::Yeah, the Sun Domain overlap is... well, not ''intentional'', but the extra spells weren't the main purpose of adding it. The important part was gettting the greater turning and the ability to qualify for certain things; specifically, the Radiant Servant PrC. That said, you still get 5/9 spells that weren't on your spell list before (''heat metal'', ''fire shield'', ''flame strike'', ''fire seeds'', ''prismatic sphere'').
::::Prismatic spray does seem thematically appropriate; I think it's the only one of the Prismatics that doesn't qualify, but I'll add Prismatics in general to Advanced Learning. [[User:Quantumboost|Quantumboost]] 20:28, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

== Pew Pew ==

...is maybe more powerful than you anticipated. There are fairly potent spells with the light descriptor. Not to mention the offensive use of cure spells on undead. --[[User:DanielDraco|DanielDraco]] 04:01, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

: See the balance level of the class :-P lol --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 05:06, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

::Just because Wizard-level CAN extend to Pun-Pun and beyond, that doesn't mean it should. Yes, it's valid. No, it's probably not good design. --[[User:DanielDraco|DanielDraco]] 05:28, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

:::Extending wizard level to Pun-Pun is neither helpful nor productive, and it should stop. I wrote Pun-Pun ''out'' of the balance level in the project page yesterday even, but if you think that was a bad call you know where to comment on that. I'm honestly not even sure the level extends to Cheater of Mystara and their immunity bubble. There should be an upper limit to wizard level, just as there's a lower limit on monk, otherwise there's no point and you can't reasonably expect two wizard level classes to even be playing the same game.

:::Regarding this ability, yeah, they own undead with pew pew cure spells in conjunction with the reach, chain, empowered, and uncapped bonuses from brilliance. And they can do it even if they aren't casting their higher level spells to do so. I'm actually okay with them owning undead really hard as it's just a subset of encounters (or adventures, or campaigns), and they don't have all that much to do against non-undead other than throw abjurations at them or keeping the party going. But if there are [Light] spells that I'm forgetting about that allow them to basically own everyone once they hit that level, that would likely be problematic for the balance level. Got any of those spells in mind DD? - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  06:15, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

::::I'm currently trying to revise the White Mage to just ''not'' be a beguiler-caster and have straight abilities that do what I want, like the Snowscaper or Puppeteer. Offensive use of cure spells on Undead is intentional; Cure Kills Zombie is a meme from one of the primary sources, and I fully intend for White Mages to just total any undead opposition on the SGT or in actual play. Them totaling a good portion of everything else is unfortunate, and part of the reason for said revision. Numbers work will still have to be done, hopefully the game where I'm playing one will give some good initial results once I get the new stuff arranged. --[[User:Quantumboost|Quantumboost]] 18:46, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

== Advanced Learning? ==

Quote: "Advanced Learning: At 3rd level and every two levels thereafter, the White Mage may permanently add one spell to her spell list. This spell must be of a level she can already cast, and must be from either the Abjuration school, the (Healing) subschool, or have the [Light] descriptor. Only spells from the Cleric or Wizard spell lists may be learned in this way."

Does this mean that you select one spell from the Cleric/Wizard spell lists the you CAN cast and add it among the list of spells already able to be casted (from the Abjuration, (Healing), or [Light] parts)?

or

Does this mean that you can cast one spell from the list already given permanently as an attack action like Pew-Pew?

Thanks,
Kaze

:Since the white mage can cast any spell on their class list without preparing it ahead of time, so long as they can spend an appropriate slot for it, it means something like your 1st suggestion. But I'm a bit unclear on your wording, so let me try writing it a bit differently just so it's clear.

:With advanced learning you can select 1 spell from either the abjuration school, the healing subschool, or have the light descriptor that appears on the wizard or cleric spell list. This spell is added to your list of spells known at the lower of the wizard or cleric spell level (if both are present), and you can then cast it without preparing it so long as you have a slot of the same or higher spell level available to spend on it. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  02:02, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

::Yes, that was exactly what i meant and asked, thanks :)

::~Kaze

==Should this even be in the main space==

Quantumboost has some good articles out there, however this is not one of them. His last edit on this wiki was in September 2012, thus the likelihood of him returning any time soon (if ever) is very low. Further, the only user to positivly rate this article is Trace Chaos. Who has only made one edit on this site, which was to rate this article. Without his rating this article would be sandboxed due to community opposition. If the user was more active or someone wanted to adapt it, it might be a different story, however the [[White Magus (3.5e Class)|White Magus]] plays a similar role -- '''but is much better at it!''' Therefore, shouldn't the six people who negatively rated this weigh more than the one random single edit user.--Franken Kesey 15:41, 10 April 2019 (MDT)

:That Quantumboost is inactive isn't an argument for removing his stuff. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] ([[User talk:Surgo|talk]]) 18:09, 10 April 2019 (MDT)

::No, but 6 regular users negatively rating and only one single-use user rating positively is.--Franken Kesey 18:16, 10 April 2019 (MDT)

:::The following are not valid arguments for removing this though they are, for whatever reason, part of your post arguing about removing this:
:::* Quantumboost is not an active user. (Doesn't matter, or should I start removing all material from inactive users?)
:::* The White Magus plays a similar role. (Doesn't matter, or should I start removing all variant material?)
:::* Without a positive rating, the article would be Community Opposed (Umm, yeah, that's kind of the point of taking the mean rating. Without the opposed ratings, this article would be community favored!)
:::With that removed, all that we are left with is that Trace Chaos only made a single edit under that name (which is this rating). Are you trying to say that their rating is fraudulent? Because if so, come out and say it. If not, then that's not a reason to remove his rating. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] ([[User talk:Surgo|talk]]) 18:21, 10 April 2019 (MDT)

::::To clarify, I am not stating all inactive contented should be deleted. I am stating that since the author is gone, it is unlikely that this article will ever be changed (unless adapted). Thus it is unlikely that the above ratings will change (because the content has not changed). Secondly, since white magus was created as a variant to this, and is much better written -- this is redundant. Not stating there can never be similar articles or variant (it is quite common and has a place). I am stating that the existence of a better variant highlights this articles flaws that much more. Thirdly, It is suspicious when the only thing that a user did is a single rating. This does not suggest that said account necessarily is a proxy (this is unlikely). But does show the account holder had little to no investment in the site. It is not as if there is an equal division of stances six are negative and one is positive. Lastly, if someone adapted this article and fixed some of its faults then some of those ratings would change. But in its current form is overpowered and broken.--Franken Kesey 18:34, 10 April 2019 (MDT)

:::::Even if the positive rating was removed, the article would not be community opposed. Furthermore, I entirely disagree that it's broken. I didn't give it a neutral because it's too powerful (it's actually balanced incredibly well and straddles the line very solidly), but because it goes against how most people play D&D. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] ([[User talk:Surgo|talk]]) 19:33, 10 April 2019 (MDT)

Although I don't particularly care for this article, Surgo's right. We can't change the rules for 1 article, not to mention those particular arguments aren't valid. Getting it sandboxed will have to wait for more people to rate it disfavorably. Which, for the record, even if I changed my mind to opposed, would still take 10 MORE opposes to bring the average down to 0.5 to make it community opposed. [[User:The-Marksman|The-Marksman]] ([[User talk:The-Marksman|talk]]) 19:13, 10 April 2019 (MDT)
Disliked	Leziad +, Undead Knave +, Foxwarrior + and The-Marksman +
Favored	Trace Chaos +
Neutral	Surgo +
Opposed	Eiji-kun + and Franken Kesey +