Difference between revisions of "User talk:Franken Kesey/Biological Reconstruction (3.5e Power)"

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== Ratings ==
 
== Ratings ==
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|reason=This is just nonsensical. First it's trying to spread a schtick around, which I don't like at all. Then it's actually bad at what it does, because healing and constitution damage are in direct opposition to each other. Then finally it has a random thing where it can cure one of the most badass conditions in the game for some reason? Wtf?
 
|reason=This is just nonsensical. First it's trying to spread a schtick around, which I don't like at all. Then it's actually bad at what it does, because healing and constitution damage are in direct opposition to each other. Then finally it has a random thing where it can cure one of the most badass conditions in the game for some reason? Wtf?
 
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|reason=I agree with much of what Leziad is saying here. Personally, I'm actually not a supporter of non-personal healing powers in psionics, but, regardless, I do know there are a couple of powers and wordings within the EPH which would allow for the logical deduction of adding in some kinds of healing powers. However, there is an excerpt from EPH that this power goes completely against. See my note below.
 
|reason=I agree with much of what Leziad is saying here. Personally, I'm actually not a supporter of non-personal healing powers in psionics, but, regardless, I do know there are a couple of powers and wordings within the EPH which would allow for the logical deduction of adding in some kinds of healing powers. However, there is an excerpt from EPH that this power goes completely against. See my note below.

Revision as of 16:42, 30 June 2019

Ratings

RatedOppose.png Surgo opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
This is just nonsensical. First it's trying to spread a schtick around, which I don't like at all. Then it's actually bad at what it does, because healing and constitution damage are in direct opposition to each other. Then finally it has a random thing where it can cure one of the most badass conditions in the game for some reason? Wtf?
RatedOppose.png The-Marksman opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
I agree with much of what Leziad is saying here. Personally, I'm actually not a supporter of non-personal healing powers in psionics, but, regardless, I do know there are a couple of powers and wordings within the EPH which would allow for the logical deduction of adding in some kinds of healing powers. However, there is an excerpt from EPH that this power goes completely against. See my note below.
RatedOppose.png Ghostwheel opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
Basically, what Leziad said. Same concerns precisely.
RatedOppose.png Leziad opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
Franken Kesey made a lot of new powers, however I feel I should point out that many of these powers show a fundamental misunderstanding on how power do and should works. Firstly it is good to have versatile powers that have nice augments, and sometime allowed to replicate a spell or two. They are more precious than spells as even a psion know less powers than a sorcerer know spells.

However these powers go too far in that regards. They make already existing powers absolutely useless and fill an entire nice with a single options. That wouldn't be a huge problems if they were simply on the Judge of Existence list, but they are on both Psychic Warrior and Psion, which make them available to 90% of psionics. Even if they were only available to the Judge of Existence it easy to get powers out of your list.

The problem with Psionic Heal is that it is the most efficient healing power with no real drawback. While psionic healing isn't handled all that well this make the Psion (essentially the psionic wizard) the best healer in the game, not the egoist, the psion. Both able to rid of ability damage, status effect and heal a huge chunk of HP with minimal cost and no power selection tax beside the first.

This turn all psions into incredibly effective healers and that not good. Also it on the wrong discipline, healing is psychometabolism.

EDIT: Still an extremely efficient non-personal healing, that make existing powers redundant and is on the Psion/Wilder and Psychic Warrior list. The bulk of my problem with this remain.

EDIT 2: Now with that drawback, I am much more okay with this. The flavor is now much more psionic nature and the Con Burn make so that it does not replace all the other healers in the game.

EDIT 3: Oh look the drawback has been lessened to oblivion. Back to oppose.

EDIT 4: Still on the PsyWar list, still to efficient without a major drawback. Drawback lessened again.


Note on rating

On page 57 of EPH they talk about the powers and disciplines more in depth, and under Psychometabolism it says:

Note on Psychometabolism powers
"Psychometabolism powers change the physical properties of some creature, thing, or condition. Representative powers include empathic transfer, fuse flesh and shadow body. For the purpose of transparency, psychometabolism powers are equivalent to powers of the transmutation school (thus creatures immune to transmutation spells are also immune to psychometabolism powers).

Healing: Psychometabolism powers of the healing subdiscipline can remove damage from creatures. However, psionic healing usually falls short of divine magical healing, in direct comparison. For instance, the empathic transfer power removes damage from the recipient and assigns it to the manifester, after which the manifester can use body adjustment to heal himself."

From this we can clearly see 2 things. 1. The wording of "remove damage from creatures" implies that psionic powers can in fact be used on other creatures than the psion themselves. The second thing we see here is that the wording in the following sentence: "psionic healing usually falls short of divine magical healing". Meaning that psionic healing equivalents should not be competitive, and certainly not better than magical equivalents. This power, especially with the ability to augment it, allows for this one power to be better than the magical alternatives. Clerics can't augment cure moderate wounds by additional dice. Just a flat bonus from caster level, which is also capped. Therefore this power is now better than the divine magical alternatives.

In addition, because healing powers are not the norm for psionics, that's all the more reason that it should be restricted to just 1 discipline. That is how they balance the class by dividing up the more powerful abilities to be for just 1 discipline. Psionics is already such a sensitive balance to begin with, that giving such a powerful and broken ability to all disciplines is just plain game breaking. The-Marksman (talk) 12:14, 29 June 2019 (MDT)

This is much weaker than magical healing, it has a constitution burn drawback. No healing in spellcasting has any drawbacks. The con burn in particular is extensive, because it can reduce maximum HP, returns very slowly, and cannot be healed by other powers.--Franken Kesey 10:16, 30 June 2019 (MDT)
You took away the constitution drawback because you didn't like it only an hour and a half ago. Why are you backing down so quickly on this issue? --Foxwarrior (talk) 10:22, 30 June 2019 (MDT)
Leziad stated she would revert rating back and explain why.--Franken Kesey 10:26, 30 June 2019 (MDT)

Discussion

Thank you for rating, appreciate the feedback. Will respond to some of your point to find ways to make this better.

  1. To your first point that psionics are weak at healing, agreed. This is why this was made. Further, standard options are mostly personal, this gives a touch healing ability which was absent.
  2. What other healing abilities are you referring to? All in SRD are personal, and cannot be used on others.
  3. The healing does have a cap (10d8), which is about the same as a spell caster using a similar spell.
  4. The cure of fatigue and sickness are admittedly accessible at a much lower level than a spell caster could cast heal. However, they are only two weak effects. You make a good point about their level, and changed to a higher augment.
  5. The latter cure effects though are accessible at a level near where heal would be found. But there is a much smaller selection of effects which a manifester can cure. If you can think of a better way to do cure effects, I am all ears.
  6. Yes, this is much like cure moderate wounds and heal combined. This is due to manifesters mostly having a very limited known power list -- especially the wilder who only gets 11 powers at 20th. However, do agree that an overall increase in power is in order, thus have changed some of the cure options and made more things augments.
  7. The cure spells are in the conjuration discipline which translates to metacreativity in psionics. I understand that the healing subdisipline of powers falls under psychometabolism, but most of those are personal and this is a touch. But changed the discipline.
  8. Lastly, changed the HP healing from ML to augments.

Made a few changes to the page, please check them out.--Franken Kesey 13:37, 11 April 2019 (MDT)

Removed most of the cure conditions effects, created a new power that does that instead (found here)--Franken Kesey 10:29, 16 April 2019 (MDT)
Responce to Leziad:
  1. Again, there are only three psionic classes. Which mean most psionic powers can be used by most psionic classes. Ratings based on if a power can be found on a list, is not judging based on merit.
  2. 2d8 is only 9 damage on average. Which is not a lot.
  3. It costs 2 power points to increase by 1d8, which is lower than body adjustment which increases by 1d12 for 2 power points.
  4. Within the SRD there is only one power that heals damage, body adjustment. Body adjustment is only personal. Meanwhile spellcasters get 12 different damage healing spells with most being touch and a few being mass. This is underpowered.
  5. Guess what, body adjustment can be found on all psionic lists as well!!! Again this is not a good reason to dislike this article.
  6. Yes the entire purpose of this is to create a psionic touch healing ability. This niche is absent, which is the entire purpose of homebrew, to fill niches that the core failed to cover.
  7. Psionics only have 5 powers in the Healing Subdiscipline, that is a sorry excuse for a niche, it could use some more.--Franken Kesey 11:37, 16 April 2019 (MDT)
Just found an interesting psionic healing homebrew called Healing Sound (3.5e Power). It has the following features:
  1. On the Psion/Wilder list (level 3),
  2. A range of 10-ft,
  3. Area affect
  4. Gives fast healing
Oddly, its author is Leziad. Thought she did not like non-personal healing in psionics.--Franken Kesey 12:13, 16 April 2019 (MDT)
Oh look a power I made 2 years ago, I do love someone trying to discredit me and my opinion by digging old stuff. As I pointed out on it talk page, it likely a copy-pasta mistake at the time as I was sure it was an egoist only power. You can see it upgrade power soul convergence here (I think I will renamed it into Healing Convergence or something) which point out it was supposed to be an egoist power.
The base Psion/Wilder and Psychic Warrior aren't supposed to have lots of option for healing. I approve of psionic healing, I am more than okay for the Egoist to be able to do it (although with some changes in flavor). I am a huge fan of the pathfinder's vitalist who is a psionic healer! I don't think all Psion/Wilder should be made great non-personal healer with one easy power pick.
There ways around it, no easy way. You can easily make your own psionic healer if you want to. I'd rather keep straight powerful and efficient non-personal healing out of the Psion/Wilder and Psychic Warrior list. --Leziad (talk) 13:04, 16 April 2019 (MDT)
1. Your own works are not immune to comparison. Especially as they exist in the same niche. You did fix some of the issues with your own article after the issues were addressed. It is understandable to have forgotten or made mistakes in some of your own works. I have been fixing a lot of my old stuff in the last few months.
2. Healing convergence does sound better.
3. That is all a subjective opinion. Your interpretation and view of what psionics are suppose to do. Nothing to do with mechanics. This opinion is not shared by all. Further, only giving powers to one discipline is limiting.
4. That all being said, I am willing to fix mechanical and balance issues on this power. Please explain how 2d8 HP healing is powerful, when cure moderate wounds is also 2d8 and 2nd level.--Franken Kesey 13:33, 16 April 2019 (MDT)
My own work is not immune I fully agree. However the way it was pointed out is why I have issues. There a lot of things that can change in two year, including opinion or forgetting a old mistake. Asking why I stated an opinion despite the fact I made an article that goes against would have revealed the possible mistake in a way friendlier light. This is especially apparent when you pick a 2 years old articles, not exactly a recent example of double standard. At best it might be an example of a gradual change of opinion.
I don't believe that I have an outlier opinion about psionic, many other users do agree with me here. There is a flavor and mechanical reason for the lack of efficient psionic healing. In this case being restrictive is good, if you give a great non-personal healing power to the psion/wilder list you just gave the wizard the whole cure wound series of spell. Except they only need to pick a single power and they are good-to-go forever after.
The only real SRD power that heal I remember about its body adjustment. It is a 1 round, burst healing personal-only healing psychometabolism power. It has a efficiency of 1.3 hit point restore per power points spent if unaugmented by the psion. If augmented to 19 pp this become 2,7 hit point restored per power points spent, to an average of 2 hp per pp spent for the psion. It a bit better of the psychic warrior who end up with an average of 2,5 hp per pp spent thanks to the lower initial cost.
Now let do psionic heal, it a standard action touch-ranged burst healing power. It can cure ability damage as well. Unlike body adjustment it get less efficient with investment, so it better to just manifest the unaugmented version out of battle (3 hp per pp vs 2,3 hp per pp for unagmented vs fully augmented). So only fully augmented body adjustment from a psychic warrior actually beat it in healing efficiency, that said it range and manifesting time is undeniably superior. It also has the ability to heal ability damage, all in one package.
In conclusion, psionic heal is definitely highly superior as an option for both combat and out-of-combat healing. If it on the psion/wilder list, pretty every psion will use one of their many many power point to just grab it and be able to heal like a cleric until the later hit the level for the actual heal spell. It not something I am comfortable with, for flavor and mechanical reasons. --Leziad (talk) 13:59, 16 April 2019 (MDT)

Leziad's Ideas

This article changed significantly after from Leziad's ideas. Going to list them below:

  1. Constitution burn. She thought it would be better with ability damage of some sort.
  2. 3d8 healing. Originally was 1d8.
  3. Level 3 power. Was originally 2nd level.
  4. Increase in ability damage with augments.

Further, Leziad changed her review of this class after the following changes which are listed here. The only significant changes being it went from Constitution burn to damage and 2d8+2(11) to 3d8(13.5). This drastic change over something so small weakens the rational for giving them a drawback (the Constitution burn/damage). Further, the precence of Healing Sound makes the entire endever of healing drawbacks a double standard.

Thus reverting this power back to how it used to be. Just a simple psionic touch healing. The way I want it.--Franken Kesey 08:38, 30 June 2019 (MDT)