Talk:Apex (3.5e Class)

Ratings

	Ghostwheel dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.
	Since the Beastblooded is a thing, this class feels redundant, and honestly, rather boring without anything that makes it special. Add that your form doesn't actually matter much. And why does this have an animal companion? You're already a frontliner. You don't need another frontliner.

Unlike the beastblood, this has rage abilities. Additionally, this class does a complete transformation (like wildshape), can select flying creatures, and can turn into up to four different creatures. Whereas beast-blood does not have flight, and only has one form. Further, the beastblood is vulnerable to insanity (which is a cool idea, but absolutely a negative vulnerability).

This class does not force chaotic evil. Only restriction is cannot be lawful (like a barbarian). A druid has even greater alignment restrictions.

This type of shape changing comes from an understanding of animals. Thus it makes sense they would have an animal companion at low level.--Franken Kesey 15:43, 5 May 2019 (MDT)

Your choice in form can change movement type (and give flight), and change creature size. Flight at low level can be a major boon.--Franken Kesey 20:26, 5 May 2019 (MDT)

Comments

I heard a fluster about something with the Apex. Let's see what's up.

Full BAB, something about druidy flavors, d10s.... whoa. Those are some serious numbers over there in primal ability changes. Not sure about those, it's like barbarian x3. I'll keep reading, maybe there is a good reason for it, but usually it's Full BAB and minor buffs as their gimmick (Barbarian) or All buffs and terrible BAB (War Hulk). You don't want to mix the two.

Simple weapons, interesting. Looks to be very primal. Animal companion, probably not needed power wise but probably fits flavor.

Carnal Nature. That's a name. And you gain quite a bit of movement from it including a weird half-step of 15 ft for land speed. Seems like a lot to give all at once. The rest, oddly part of Carnal Nature, is the typical "I'm naturey" set of class features.

Rage. Ah, so that ability bonus... isn't related to rage? This looks like regular rage. Wait, then what's primal ability changes.

Beast form. This is wildshape, kinda. You get a bite and two claws no matter the form, making your Dolphinshape really weird. It's also weird to get a fixed 50 ft (good) fly speed for fliers, which means turning into a clumsy butterfly flying thing works well. And here seems to be where the primal ability changes comes from. Oh no... so it's that, but it also stacks with rage. Kessy no. You're in too deep.

The special abilities from it have some problems too. Pounce is nothing but trouble here. Size changes are dangerous but at least it's not giving full benefits. Wait, no, I am mistaken. I just saw Apex Form. Are we triple digits Str now? I'm pretty sure we're triple digit Str now.

Compared to this, the rest are nothing.

But you've made a mistake. If your intent was to be "Strength the Class" you should have cribbed from War Hulk and removed the BAB entirely. And if your intent was Nature Rager, you really really REALLY need to autotune those numbers back into the real zone.

Oh dear. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 21:47, 30 April 2019 (MDT)

Thank you for the review, will address your topics in order:

1. Agree the full BAB is too much, will nerf. The numbers from primal form are addressed in beast form (put full progression in one place on the table; see below).
2. Good.
3. Decided to, instead of have a +10 movement every few levels (like a barbarian), just give a flat +15 early and give no more. Could move it to a higher level if it is too powerful. Yet the apexes abilities at 1st and 2nd level are rather weak. The other carnal stuff is all nature related and rather weak. Decided to group it as one, and keep at low level instead of gaining four different abilities at 1st and 2nd level. Can split back up, it just looked weird on table.
4. Incorrect, this is not the ability bonus. The ability bonus comes from beast form only (when in primal form, not other later forms). Rage bonuses stack on top of this. This is where the numbers start stacking and why this is Very High balanced. The only changes here to barbarians rage are the Hulking Rage at 11th (instead of greater), and greater at 20th (instead of mighty).
5. Yes, it is a specialized wildshape focusing only on one animal. It is mentioned on the page strange attack like snake and octopus, which also applies to dolphin (it was easy to miss, there is a lot of text to read). Gave them a flat score for same reason as movement speed above, to keep things less complicated. Should I reduce it to 40'?
6. With regards to the Beast Form: This is the most problematic part of the page. Will remove pounce outright. Want a beast ability capstone at 18th. What would be a better way to improve on the apex's primal form without being overpowered?
7. With regards to intent: Want this to be mostly a wildshaper with rage. Some of the utility abilities are distracting and will remove. Will also remove half of the bonus feats. The biggest focus of this class is melding rage and wildshape.

Again thank you for the feedback.--Franken Kesey 22:17, 30 April 2019 (MDT)

In last edit fixed BAB, removed apex form completely, moved pounce to 18th (will replace with something else when a better option arises), removed some bonus feats, weakened fly and speed bonuses.--Franken Kesey 22:29, 30 April 2019 (MDT)