Talk:Avalanche Knight (3.5e Class)

Rating

The-Marksman favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!

I have to disagree with Kesey on this. I actually like this concept. I think that the Cascade idea is interesting. I think it needs a little clean up still, but the idea itself is fairly solid. I also strongly disagree with Kesey about 5 level classes. I myself in fact made a 5 level base class. I'll explain my position below. Updated rating to Favor now that the couple of small issues I brought up were addressed, the insta-kill abilities now have saves and the Into the Fray had a HD minimum added. Fun class, I would play it.

Franken Kesey dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.

A 5 level base class is just a bad idea. This should be a prestige. Having an attack which continues to hit opponents until you fail your attack roll is overpowered especially for a moderate balance. The into the fray feature has no cap. Thus a knight could do 1 point of damage to every creature adjacent to dropped foe (within reach), and receive a significant bonus. This is especially problematic at low level, where +5 bonus to AC could make them invulnerable 95% of the time. The champion strike kills without a save. Lastly, the fact that most features do not apply to monsters at or above the characters level. Being able to kill a lot of minions is pedestrian, and useless when fighting one boss. Edited due to recent changes. Still has problems.

Kesey, you should note that the article is now high balance which removes your concern about the cascade. The Into the Fray feature is actually balanced if you think about it. You can only stack an AC bonus if the Knight is completely surrounded, meaning that he probably could use the AC. If he only has 2 opponents it only goes to +2, and that bonus only lasts until his next turn when he has to hope to hit them again. Then, on top of that, if one of them manages to hit the Knight when he has the AC bonus they become immune for 24 hours. This isn't a balance issue at all, even at moderate balance because the lack of a cap becoming unbalanced is SO situational. You have to be surrounded by 5+ mobs that are at least 2 levels lower than you, hit them all in one round, you only get to keep the AC bonus until your next turn, and then heaven forbid that one of them actually manages to hit you, you cant count them for AC bonus for 24 hours (and lets be real, by that time they're going to be dead anyways). The-Marksman (talk) 00:19, 7 May 2019 (MDT)

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Kesey, I didn't create this class, I just adopted it so it can continue existing on this site. I personally am all for it being a base class, as the things it adds really aren't that huge. It could indeed be just an addition to the Fighter class, really; but it doesn't bring enough to the table to warrant being a PrC, and I'm not going to change it from the original for any reason than clarifying wording.

As for it having so few levels, there are many other base classes on the wiki with fewer levels, mostly because most people PrC out by level 6 or so. If you're so offended by this, take it up with WotC and their bad 3.5e system design, but quit opposing articles for such stupid reasons, or I will find equally stupid reasons to start opposing all of yours. --Zhenra-Khal (talk) 11:48, 1 May 2019 (MDT)

1. When you adopted you gained responsibility of the article, tantamount to it being your own. Thus stating "it was not my idea and I am not responsible for it" is a weak excuse. My rating is not a reflection of the author (or adopter), only of the article. You have the stewardship of the article, thus can change it when there are system issues.
2. I am not the first person to bring up the flaws of base classes with less than 20 levels. In fact, many other authors have criticized base classes with only 10 levels as being too short and outside of guidelines (this is even worse with only 5 levels). This criticism is neither revolutionary or new. It is old with precedent. If you think that this is just an addition to a fighter class, then that exactly what a PRC is, a class that you rank in for only a few levels. This is not the only base class which I have criticized for being under 20 levels. I am fair.
3. There is no evidence of white-supremacy propaganda on this article (or the like). Do not see how this could ever be offensive. Think you mean to state that there are some mechanical issues with the article. Say a player starts with this class, expecting to play a short campaign. After a few months the campaign, turns out to last longer than expected, and he/she has reached 6th level. Now what? Become a level 1 fighter and gain a feat? Or rank in barbarian and gain rage 1/day? Both options do not compete with a rogue with sneak attack or a monk with flurry of blows and unarmed damage. Not only based on the weaker features, but more importantly because the avalanche knight has to start at level one in a new class at 6th level.
4. As always, willing to work with an author (or adapter) on making an article better. That does not mean that any article is invulnerable to mechanical errors or discussion. If you fix some of the issues willing to change rating, but right now this article continues to have mechanical problems.--Franken Kesey 16:02, 1 May 2019 (MDT)

Base classes can have 5 levels. That is fine. If you don't like that, too bad. Surgo (talk) 16:32, 1 May 2019 (MDT)

1. I have stewardship of the article, but prefer not to change it unless something is broken beyond playability, which has thus far been farther from a problem than you are from being on my good side.
2. There is no problem with 5 or 10 level classes beyond the possibility of needing more levels to expand upon an idea, or having too many abilities cramped into too few levels. This has neither. Shooting down an entire group of articles because they don't fit into your little box is considered prejudiced and offensive, not fair, though it seems to be your kink, what with the "religious articles" thing a little while back. It's similar to being against an entire group of people for no reason other than they are the way they are, though the offense in this case is by far less severe.
3. I? Never mentioned any propaganda? But with the way you're going out of your way to shit on most, if not all, of this type of article simply because they are of this type suggests you are butthurt over something related to them, since you were butthurt over your Satanist when you went on the downvoting rampage through Clericville. So I'm just going to assume you're butthurt now as you were then. Leopards and spots, all that.
4. Prestige classes are a thing. They don't have to start out a new base class at level 6 if they don't want to; If they're using homebrew from this wiki, as they obviously are if they're using this class, they can pick from the plethora of PrCs that have requirements less than level 6.
5. I don't foresee needing, nor recall requesting, your help in balancing the article. I'd had some concerns of my own, like the auto-hit bag-of-rats nonsense, but those I will address in my own due time, not when you get a bug up your rear and decide for me that I need to conform to WotC bullshit. We're homebrewers; We break the molds and make new ones, sometimes from the parts of the old ones. If you want conformism, flee.

As for how I plan to balance this class, my main concern is the cascade. It hits automatically and seems to be able to go outside your reach, as well as stacking with Cleave. While I enjoy being able to be a blender, autohits and reach-ignoring is silly. So, I'm going to implement a couple of things to counter this. In the meanwhile, find better things to do with my time and to masturbate to. --Zhenra-Khal (talk) 16:53, 1 May 2019 (MDT)

Zhenra-Khal, the only one offended is you. Your ad holmium attacks prove that you are unable to argue base on merits because your emotions are engaged. Once you have the confidence to leave your self-destructive nature behind and grown up we can discuss the flaws of your arguments. But for now your tantrum shows to all of us that you are unhinged and need help. I do not want you to fall into mania because you were offended online. There is nothing wrong with seeking psychiatric help. Get help to deal with your condition.--Franken Kesey 13:59, 3 May 2019 (MDT)

(Indent reset due to new rating after my new changes) Okay, so.

• The attack doesn't bypass AC any more than things such as "Apply your attack roll to all creatures within the cone, comparing the roll to each creature's AC separately", many of which I have seen; This is even less powerful than those abilities, since with those, if your attack roll fails to hit a creature, it doesn't prevent you from hitting any of the other creatures.

• In The Fray has no cap because it has a counter. In any case, it's very rare you've going to get a terribly high AC from this ability alone, and is no more broken than casting Mage Armor on the party Monk. AC isn't everything; And even if it was, this only applies to mooks anyway.

• Champion's Strike kills weak creatures without a save.

• And finally, your ridiculous point that the class features do indeed function only as the mook-eviscerating class the fluff advertises it as.

"Charging head-first into battle and wiping out entire scores of foes in seconds much like an avalanche, the avalanche knight is the go-to for when a weakling dares enter the fray against master adventurers. Not only does he slay two, three, or four Goblins in a mere second, he can even strike down ogres, treants, and dragons in a single blow as his might reaches the realms of truly epic heroes."

That's... What' it's supposed to do. Your entire new rating has simply added "does what it's advertised to do" to "I don't like 5-level classes"; There's nothing mechanically wrong here beyond your opinion. You're wasting your breath. Thanks for the publicity, though. --Zhenra-Khal (talk) 12:20, 6 May 2019 (MDT)

Text stats that creatures after 1st do not require a reroll. Thus in the example on the page, it could hit an infinite amount of creatures with AC under 17 (so long as he still has remaining damage). If you meant otherwise, it needs to be clarified.

If cascading blow was used on a bag of vermin this would give far more than just +4 to AC. You can fit rats pretty tight easily 10, and in real world I have fit 20. But lets keep with the low number, +10 AC is significant. Better to have a cap.

You just repeated my point on the champion's strike problem. Give them a save and its solved.

What is a mook? Did you mean monk?

Flavor is flavor. It does not excuse faulty mechanics nor does it make a class immune to criticism. That being said, lets look at the flavor. It states that it can: "...even strike down ogres, treants, and dragons in a single blow as his might reaches the realms of truly epic heroes." This sentence suggests that it can harm powerful and epic creatures. However, 4 of its 6 features cannot be used on creatures higher than and knight's HD. Expand on the epic strikes, for as written the flavor does not align with mechanics.--Franken Kesey 17:18, 6 May 2019 (MDT)

Text stats that creatures after 1st do not require a reroll. Thus in the example on the page, it could hit an infinite amount of creatures with AC under 17 (so long as he still has remaining damage)

Which, you will note, does not bypass AC like you claimed it does. Surgo (talk) 17:31, 6 May 2019 (MDT)

So, first off I just want to say that there is nothing wrong with a 5 level class. A base class implies that something isn't specialized and doesn't require specialized training to start, like a prestige class. A prestige class requires a specific skill set like an Assassin, you dont just leave your house at 16 and say "Hey, I'm an Assassin". There's a specific skill set you need to do that. Also, the amount of levels that a class has indicates either the level of complexity involved in learning the class in cases like Wizard, Druid, Cleric Monk, or in how broad the class is and how much variation and customization are available to that class such as Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin, etc.

There are other instances in other 3.5e publications that support a base class with less than 20 levels. I do agree that smaller levels generally do reflect prestige classes more than base classes, but that's not an exclusionary statement. What a character does after a 5 level class doesn't matter as much as you're making it out. If you take 5-6 levels of Fighter and then take a prestige class for a few levels, and then take a level of something else like Swashbuckler or Knight, that doesn't put you at a disadvantage just because it's your first level of Knight or Swashbuckler. You're more than just 1 level of a class, you're the sum of the parts of the classes you take.

As to this class itself, I actually like the idea of the Cascade. It makes use of that bonus damage that would normally be wasted when you hit an opponent and drop them, and where it uses the same attack roll that you got on the original attack, is required to pass the AC of subsequent opponents, and all opponents must be within reach, and he closed off the loop with Great Cleave, I feel that this is fairly well balanced. As far as balance goes, I'm actually more concerned with the Execution feature that essentially adds +10 damage to every hit by bypassing the damage needed. I would prefer that the creature either A. Get a fort save to remain at -1, or B. The feature not kill the opponent, but rather, allow you to just stop the damage done to that opponent when the target hits -1 and then that way you can save the damage for the next target. I feel that would be more balanced and fair. I'm imagining if a DM made a villain that had all 5 levels in this class was fighting the PC's. I'd be annoyed if he could bypass the 10 damage that makes the difference between me living or dying and I don't get a save. The-Marksman (talk) 18:57, 6 May 2019 (MDT)

I hadn't thought of these class levels being put on a BBEG who is a higher level than the players. That could get extremely annoying; I must fix that at once. --Zhenra-Khal (talk) 19:09, 6 May 2019 (MDT)

I have implemented a few more changes and moved it to High balance as per Ghostwheel's suggestion. If your only argument now is "has 5 levels", get off my talk page. --Zhenra-Khal (talk) 20:46, 6 May 2019 (MDT)

Avalanche Knight, Master of the Rat on a Stick fighting school

The Avalanche Knight attacks the rat (which he took out of a bag), Power Attacking it for the maximum, with his stick. 2 damage knocks the rat unconscious, and the remaining damage is directed at that guy with really high AC over there (justified in character by flinging the rat with the stick into the guy's eye.

Oh wait, I missed the "target's nearest ally" thing, that makes things a lot trickier. Now you have to make sure the rat is friends with your target (cast suggestion on it maybe?), and you can't keep the bag of rats on you or you'll end up making it explode on accident. Taking that into account, I'm not sure I object to the way this works at all! --Foxwarrior (talk) 21:37, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

But then I scroll up and see that you think "hostile" helps you in some way (it doesn't), and am reminded of Whirlwind, which is actually a problem isn't it. If you can make sure they're all the real enemies' pet rats at least. --Foxwarrior (talk) 21:39, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Logic like that is exactly why I added that minor caveat. Rats are mindless anyway. You'd have to be carrying around intelligent things like pixies. Yeah, it does let you bypass AC, but that's really not a huge deal. It doesn't work as often as you'd like it to since the minion would have to have nobody near him except the high-AC guy. It's so situational it's not worth closing the loophole. LenKagetsu (talk) 22:47, 31 January 2015 (UTC)

Minor nitpick, rats are non-sentient, not mindless. Anyway, cool looking class, considering playtesting, will rate either way probably after a bit more mulling about. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 02:24, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Mindless is a specific trait. LenKagetsu (talk) 12:15, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

And rats are animals. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 12:25, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Huh. Dunno where I read they were vermin type. LenKagetsu (talk) 16:56, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Adoption

With Eiji's approval, I have adopted this page so that it may be used. Quite an elegant piece of work for its simplicity, especially Cascading Strike. --Zhenra-Khal (talk) 22:54, 4 August 2018 (MDT)