Talk:Bloody Spirit (3.5e Spell)

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Huge Amounts of Bleed[edit]

I just want to make sure that you know that this spell is essentially a touch attack vs dealing 20% of a creature's max health as a level 2 spell. Bleedout does a huge amount of damage and isn't anywhere near that high. --Undead_Knave (talk) 07:19, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

It shouldn't be a touch attack, maybe I should specify it as the text says "spirit". I'm not sure if you are saying that it does a huge amount of damage or not. To a fighter with 21 hp at 2nd level it does 4 damage, which is not a lot of damage (bleedout happens no more than once per round), given the conditions that needs to happen (reflective surface big enough, target adjacent or near it). If, instead, you think it's too low damage for a 2nd level spell I will think of something. --The bluez in the dungeon (talk) 07:53, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
To a level 2 Fighter it does 4 damage, but it'll deal the same proportional damage to a cloud giant (assuming below average rolls with at least a +3 casting stat). The Cloud Giant has 178 hit points, so it'll take 35. Heck, if you hit the Tarrasque with this (not undoable by the point you're likely fighting Big T) below average rolls will make it bleedout with a +5 (which you're going to have). That's 171 damage right there. Granted Big T isn't generally a great example for this kind of stuff, but my point is that making something that just does a percentage amount of damage is probably a bad idea.
Also, what that doesn't have a circulatory system can you effect with this? Like definitely not a golem; you'd not be able to get past Spell Immunity. Probably a Treant, but what about an Earth Elemental? A Lantern Archon? A Bear Zombie? An Animated Taxidermied Bear? A Ghost? A little more clarification is probably good there. --Undead_Knave (talk) 08:30, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
Well you still have to find a Huge reflective surface near the giant and to beat its AC. I agree that 5d6 is high, maybe I could lower it to 3d6, use d4s or something like that. I'd like your opinion on this.
On the topic of which creatures this spell can affect: I purposely specified that it affects all creatures, regardless of the presence of blood in the strictest sense. This is because:
1) I wanted to make this spell useful against all kind of creatures
2) Eiji explained in the bleedout condition that it does not strictly refer to blood loss, so I figured that loss of sap, divine ichor or ectoplasm was fine, especially because I think at this instance of bleedout as spiritual as much as physical damage.
3) A meticulous work of discrimination to decide which kind of creatures would have a physiology susceptible to this effect is useless and tedious, because not even WoTC cared to explain the biology of fantastic creatures and so we have an air elemental that is susceptible to dagger's strikes and diseases. I also don't like to restrict other users in deciding what kind of physiology creatures have, if I'm not the author of said creature. I will still clarify that the bleeding effect isn't limited to actual blood.
Thanks for the comment, I'll wait for your answer --The bluez in the dungeon (talk) 08:55, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
I'm totally fine with this applying to any creature, although in that case I would suggest wording that portion as "works on any creature, even if it doesn't have a circulatory system."
That being said, my suggestion is probably just to not use bleedout on this scale at this level. I'll think about other suggestions, that being said. --Undead_Knave (talk) 01:20, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
EDIT: After talking to some people, here's my thoughts: it takes a feat and there is some setup needed, so it's probably generally okay at the level it is. That being said, it's going to bleed people out unless you roll super poorly, so just make it they bleed out. You can either keep it as the attack or make it a save negates and it should be fine. Specify explicitly it works on everything (I gave some sample verbiage that should work or go with something else, whatever). --Undead_Knave (talk) 02:02, 20 August 2021 (UTC)