Talk:Discipline Dabbler (3.5e Trait)

Ratings

Blocked Rating	Ghostwheel opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	This rating refers to a substantially different version of the article, or concerns mentioned in it have already been addressed.Straight up buff that gives access to some of the strongest powers in the game to any psionic class, even half-casters who shouldn't get access to what will be equivalent to level 9 powers when augmented. Doesn't really have a flaw to speak of.

Drawback should be part of the benefit. It doesn't actually give any drawback. --Ghostwheel (talk) 18:02, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

This doesn't even seem like a trait, it seems like an alternate rule: "As a psion, you may learn powers on a different discipline list than yours, but these are cast at a -2 ML" Fluffykittens (talk) 20:25, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

I debated between ACF and trait, and settled on trait because yeah. I figure the drawback is this: You only have so many powers per day. If you spend those slots on nerfed powers, you're less effective. Hence the downside. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 00:54, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

You only have so many *power points* per day, but many powers to choose from. This gives access to some of the best powers in the game. Compare this to Expanded Knowledge, a single feat that is required usually to get one of the powers from a different class list. If it was a crappy prereq feat like Toughness or Skill Focus I could see it, but that feat features in many strong builds. Maybe if the penalty was -6 or -8 or something, and even then, it fits much better as an ACF than a trait since it isn't applicable to the vast majority of characters and only helps specific classes. --Ghostwheel (talk) 06:55, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

That was quick, I was getting to this next.

I was going to say I don't think we were talking about the same thing. I was referring to the fact that psions and other psionic classes have limited powers known, much like sorcerers. Thus the cost here is "I need to use one of my precious powers known slot, I'm not getting it on top" (like the feat gives), followed by "not only do I need to use one of my powers known slots, but its going to be inferior to the real deal".

Nothing about power points has anything to do with it. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 07:31, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Sure, but psions have a lot more flexibility with what their powers can do, often combining a whole line of spells into one power when taking augmentation into account. Add onto that that there are usually only 2-3 REALLY strong powers from each discipline that you would love to have and usually spend Expanded Knowledge feats on, and that makes this a straight power upgrade. --Ghostwheel (talk) 07:36, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Certainly there's some choice favorites. That was the idea behind the manifester level debuff, since manifester levels are really good, much more valuable than a caster level.

If you don't object to the concept on its own, it might sound like you just disagree with the degree of the debuff (and that's fair). Is it that you don't think it goes far enough, or the entire idea is bunk? Adding extra debuffs is easy, from higher PP costs to less manifester level, or whatever. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 07:42, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

I object to a lot of concepts of things on the wiki; that doesn't mean I have much influence on whether they get made or not, heh. That said, I don't disagree with the base concept; it gives you what is effectively Expanded Knowledge up to X times, though in reality you'll probably take this 1-3 times depending on the discipline for the very best powers. I would have the drawback be equal to about 3x that feat in some way. On top of that, you aren't penalized at all for the extra options unless you take them. Giving ALL powers a -2 penalty on ML might be a decent start, and that is an actual, universal drawback to the extra versatility, rather than only giving a drawback when expanding your original pool in the first place. --Ghostwheel (talk) 22:02, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

(RESET INDENT) I was going to go with the -2 ML to everything, but it occurred that I can't, because it (and even a -1) would mean I cannot manifest my highest level power I know. Disregarding the first two levels where you have a minimum of 1, you have a situation where you have 2nd level powers (3 PP) that you can't manifest, because you can only spend 1 PP, as you are capped by your ML. Oops.

There are a couple of alternatives I am juggling right now. One of them is having a power burn extra PP (in the form of a leak, so I don't run into the ML cap issue). Another is making it so that they come in a level late, which removes discipline capstone powers and also does an effective +2 PP cost. And some more. Watch it, I'll decide what I want to do shortly. As in, a few days. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 09:08, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Added a suggestion, revert if you dislike. --Ghostwheel (talk) 18:56, 16 August 2015 (UTC)