Talk:Dullahan (5e Race)

A Dullahan's Head and Blindsight

Since this is a discussion that's already been gone over quite extensively, I'll try to also port over the relevant points, just as I've ported the page. I'll try to include the best, most concise comments, as the existing talk page had a lot of "this is bad because I say it is, or because a rating system a user created says it is" without actual argument.

• Opposed: "being able to bypass invisibility, illusions and hiding creatures (even at 10 feet) is very powerful at 1st level." ~ Marasmusine
• Counterpoint: "Blindsight does not pass invisibility, illusions, or hiding creatures unless the creature with blindsight makes a check (actively attempts to do so), like any other creature would. Bypassing those things is what Truesight is for." ~Max7238 (me)
• Books: "A monster with blindsight can perceive its surroundings without relying on sight, within a specific radius. Creatures without eyes, such as grim locks and gray oozes, typically have this special sense, as do creatures with echolocation or heightened senses, such as bats and true dragons. If a monster is naturally blind, it has a parenthetical note to this effect, indicating that the radius of its blindsight defines the maximum range of its perception." ~ Monster Manual, P.8

It should be noted that this passage immediately follows the explanation of passive Perception, and Tremorsense and Truesight are also explained. Tremorsense includes "pinpoint" accuracy, and Truesight is... Truesight. I still personally believe that Blindsight should not override illusion magic, because it is "illusion" magic meant to trick the mind. We mortals have to hallucinate our reality (we have a blind-spot in the very center of our vision on each eye, which is why we need binocular vision for example), and I don't expect a Dullahan is any different.

• Opposed: "The invisibility condition says "An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a Special sense." Blindsight is a special sense. Blindsight also says that you perceive your surroundings without relying on sight. Any obscurement that relies on sight is therefore overcome." ~ Marasmusine
• Counterpoint: "Out of combat that might be an issue, but in terms of stopping a surprise attack from an invisible creature, the creature would still technically approach and attack off-turn, surprising you anyway." ~Max7238 (me)
• Books: Purple Worm has both Blindsight and Tremorsense. This implies a good reason to have both for such a creature. Blindsight includes the explanation that it functions like echolocation, requiring a line-of-sight and some amount of attention to be paid. Tremorsense is a feeling with the body of movements against a surface, which requires both the perceiver and the perceived to be in contact with the same surface at the same time.

I'm also, personally, of the opinion that Tremorsense should be effective in water, where as Blindsight should be shut down by it if the creature is typically one that lives on land - like a Dullahan. The difference in sound's speed and behavior underwater would be the cause of this. If there are other arguments to be made, I'm all to happy to have them. It would be wise to bring it to public eye rather than private discussion via Discord. I will also, finally, stress that the Blindsight only extends to 10 feet under normal circumstances, and the creator of this race (itself derived from Irish myth), Varkarrus, has said "by the time the Dullahan is within 10 feet of an illusion, its likely already too late." As Varkarrus has largely moved on from creating content - in part because of what happened to this exact race's article elsewhere - it may take some time before any changes are made, as I'd rather they be done with permission from the actual creator. --Max7238 (talk) 11:05, 12 November 2019 (MST)

I did forget to mention a few things. First, I've play-tested the race myself in about six one-shots now (my table will run impromptu games if our normal campaigns fall through because too many people can't make it). So far, never once has Blindsight been an issue. This is versus hags stealing children, vampire mayors hiding incriminating evidence in the sewers, sneaking onto a docked ship, investigating a town overrun by the monsters from the movie A Quiet Place, and two others I don't completely remember. What has been in question is the Dullahan's ability to have their head and body in completely different places. In one game, a Warlock in our party had a flying broom. She tied my head to the broom, and my body lead the rest of the party from horseback. We were supposed to have been a team for several years in the setting, so we had hand-signs the body could give for the party such as "danger" or "rush" or "help" and the like. The head's ability to act as a forward scout, hide in small places such as indents on houses for windows, and find its way back to the body have negated the need for a rogue - but at enormous risk to the Dullahan. If the head is spotted and captured, the character is as good as dead with no escape options for the head. At least a rogue or ranger might have magic or usable items, but as I played a fighter, it would have been certain doom. With a glaive or other Reach weapon in hand, all the Blindsight has done for the character is allow the head to defend itself and only itself unless allies are bumping shoulders with it. Common sense should overwrite rules - I believe - is something the DMG is very clear about. If a rogue sneaks into the BBEG's tent while he sleeps and stabs him in the neck with a dagger, it shouldn't be "he takes 1d4 + sneak attack, gets up, and the boss fight starts vs one player," the target should be dead. That's how real life would work. In the same vein, that would mean that the Dullahan's body is deaf without the head to hear as well, and a Cursed Dullahan might be able to hear and get the 30 feet of Blindsight, but be mute. All in all, I've never seen an issue during play with the race as is. --Max7238 (talk) 11:17, 12 November 2019 (MST)

Just a note on Blindight vs. Invisibility

Blindsight beats invisibility, but invisibility itself is not infallible. Blindsight trumps invisibility under most of the commonly assumed scenarios (echolocation in air or water, and even earth, due to being able to detect vibrations via molecules and atomic energies being dispersed via movement, e.g.). It does so passively, without requiring a check (especially in cases where it is not an auditory sense but something magical or psionic even). Also, the second counterpoint is a bit unneeded, as even truesight actually cannot see creatures that successfully hide (since it only sees the world for what it truly is, so you can't see past a wall that really exists). However, if that is such a scenario, one could argue tremorsense or blindsight could bypass the wall through other senses, like vibrations or even heat sensing, which truesight does not have. So if an invisible creature successfully hid, it really would not matter even if you had truesight. On the other hand, if it was in the vicinity, I'd think echolocation could still hit it, but that's just me. I don't find blindsight that powerful, but I just wanted to clarify on that.--Elrataun (talk) 05:06, 8 March 2020 (UTC)