Talk:Feywing (3.5e Race)

Ratings

Neostar favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!

I have been testing this race for a while now. And I love it. The negative aspects of this fairy are certainly important, and I really had to think about putting some feats and abilities well targeted to keep her alive. But I really like this style of character. The Strength and Constitution penalty forces us to be inventive about how to use it. And the bonus in Dexterity and Charisma gives her a lot of options. Certainly the level adjustment of 2 is a bit high, but the general idea is there, just "be a little fairy". I think this race was not created for the purpose of bringing power, but just to bring a touch of cute, and for that it is successful.

Ganteka Future opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.

This article is incomplete for flavor and unusable for mechanics (some missing/broken particulars and a base lopsided nature give it an imbalance). Given the length that it has been up on the site here, this should be either sandboxed until its usable or deleted (and worked on offline until it is ready to be resubmitted, if ever it happens). This needs a major overhaul starting from the concept stage if ever anything is to become of this. While not affecting my rating, I'm just going to be grumpy and say I don't like the name either.

Flavor/Mechanics: I assume that the lack of detail on flavor is due to agreement with Eiji-kun and that the lack of detail on mechanics is due to waiting on flavor. (I’ll of course need to know what the “missing/broken particulars” are before I can start fixing them (or even determine whether I agree they’re problems)).
Concept: While I am prepared to make some adjustments, if you (or whomever) push me too far from my kinda-like-tinkerbell concept I won’t be budging. I homebrew for fun, and dumping my reason for creating a homebrew makes further work on the homebrew unfun for me.
Name: I avoided the name ‘fairy’ for two reasons: The fact that this term is also a synonym for ‘fey’ and the potential for tasteless jokes. I’m not delighted with ‘dweomerwing’. Feel free to suggest alternatives. --Ideasmith (talk) 02:56, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Note: A while back I left a huge response below, in case you haven't seen it or something and further explains/addresses some stuff for you. --Ganteka Future (talk) 21:16, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

I had seen it, but was intending to make more progress before posting. Thank you.--Ideasmith (talk) 14:37, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't mean to pressure you or anything. I know you're not always around to make edits and such in short notice. Take your time and work when you can. carry on and good luck, yo. --Ganteka Future (talk) 02:48, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

I didn't mean to imply that I was being pressured. Your note convinced me it was time to put what I had up rather than waiting for perfection, hence the thank-you. My detailed, if imperfect, reply is below. My apologies for the confusion. --Ideasmith (talk) 15:57, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Eiji-kun opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.

I actually only Dislike this, because the idea is fine and the stats are ok for the theme. The problem is twofold; flight is an LA 1 benefit typically and it has the LA, but I don't know if it justifies LA 2. That said, that can be worked on. The second issue is, as others have noted, it's rather lopsided. With a tiny fairy it'll be a bit lopsided but we can try and make it less so I'm sure. So why oppose instead of dislike? The rest of the article as as bare as the surface of the moon. I am completely and utterly uninspired to go further into this race, as all I know is "its a fairy", maybe. Doesn't even say that, I just kind of assumed that part. Fluff man, we need fluff.

And now we have fluff. However, since fluff is not my forte, it probably needs work. Any suggestions?--Ideasmith (talk) 02:22, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Fluff time fluff time. Alright, hmm, yes, still needs work. I'll go area by area and review what it needs.

In the first part, with "Tiny, flying, highly magical kindred" you have the problem of it both not being a sentence, and being very short and bland. In this intro spot you can get fancy, introduce what this race is about and give them a hook. I can't specify what hook you should use since I don't know what you have in store, but it should be a complete sentence. Something like "In the forests with Wibblewobble, the Dweomerwing fly around and shit sparkles. [[Summery::They are the spirits of this thing, born from Y as tiny magical fae.]] Some more fluff and things that don't go in any specific category."

Now onto the meat...

Personality: So I know they're cheerful, passionate, and like magic. Is that it? Here are some questions to answer... how do they interact with each other? Outsiders? Does the race have an alignment or goal as a whole? How do they handle antagonists? What are their life goals?

Physical Description: This is the place which needs most work. Right now I know how hall, how heavy, and that they have wings, but I still don't know what they look like. Humans? Elves? Giant moquitos? A lot of creatures could have these traits of being small and having wings.

In addition this is the opportunity to get into depth and shine. Think of them actually in a biological setting. Do they have any usual or notable diet? Do they lay eggs? Do they turn into dust on death? Maybe they have some weird 3 part lifecycle going on. Flex your biological knowledge and muscle, make it interesting.

Typically when I do these parts I cover the outward appearance in detail, then cover inner workings (if any), and then mating habits and other behavioral aspects. If there is something that's pretty generic I don't cover it, or I just say "as humans" or something. For example, if the dweomerwings are tiny flying humans its safe to assume they are warm blooded live birthing omnivorous beings unless stated otherwise. If I'm statting up something alien with 3 tentacles, no head, and floating pouches of hydrogen gas I may want to address the things which can't be assumed.

Relations: This one's a bit better, though needs some grammarchecks. A bit of warning; they sound a bit like kender. Now, I actually don't mind kender so much being the chaotic random myself, but I totally understand how what you've written can be interpreted as "all of them are chaotic stupid". Maybe go into it further; perhaps they know they're a pain but don't care? Or they don't know, but if they don't what happens when they find out? Etc etc.

Alignment: This is fine.

Lands: This is also fine, though you could go into more detail about where these communities are, suuch as if they can be found anywhere, or prefer natural settings, or warm climates, or...

Religion: This is fine, and gives me the idea that they easily become cultists to mad gods and other things. Very suggestable, to the point where I'm surprised its not a mechanical aspect of them being so suggestable.

Language: Fine.

Names: Fine.

Racial: Needs some format fixings, and I already covered the issues of pidgeonholed races. Probably could use tweeking, but this critque is about fluff right now. Just noting this to let you know this also can be an issue.

Right now it seems you want fairy kender, which is slightly dangerous since kender are hated so due to aforementioned chaotic stupid enforced fluff. So, where do you want to go from here? -- Eiji-kun (talk) 03:23, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the advice; changes have been made. A few points:

Summary: I chose to clarify my intent here rather than inventing a setting to make them setting-specific.

Relations: I certainly didn’t intend for them to necessarily be chaotic stupid. One reason I dislike including more fluff than needed to clarify my intent is that it tends to restrict gaming groups use of my creation in ways I didn’t intend. I hope my rewording dealt with the ‘chaotic stupid’ problem.

Religion: I didn’t intend to imply ‘suggestible’, but rather that their tendency towards random long missions applies to religion as much as anything else. I did not say that the missions were the deities’ idea. Reworded in hopes of clarifying.

Also: I did not intend ‘fairy kender’ and hope I’ve made the kindred less annoying. --Ideasmith (talk) 02:56, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

After this discussion of flavor text gets sorted out, I'm gonna want in on discussing the mechanics. Don't really want to overwhelm you at the moment. I will say this though: I've been trying to write races for D&D for like... over a decade, and I still constantly overlook or forget to include simple things in race design. It's very easy to screw up and takes a lot of forethought. Just focus on your core concept, get that picture in your head and then type out words. Start with a big dumb list if you have to, that works. Then sort everything out, but keep that picture in your head. That's your destination. If you lose focus (or can't focus to begin with), you'll end up with something else as the final product.

As for that mechanics discussion, when we get to it, I'm going to suggest racial HD instead of LA and build around that, just as a warning. --Ganteka Future (talk) 04:21, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

While this is the first race I’ve done for this edition of D&D, I’m actually good at sticking to concept. My problem is with getting that concept across; a good chunk of my revising is clarifying my intent.

Racial dice may boost that dweomerwing sorcerer too much. I’m thinking in terms of letting them use Dex in place of Str for attack rolls, damage, skill checks and defensive opposed checks (or possibly Cha or Wis if Dex is too Strong). --Ideasmith (talk) 02:56, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

	Undead Knave opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	I have never before seen a race that deserves a negative LA. That is not a good thing.

Dude Wtf

Seriously that one of the squishiest race I ever saw, it ability scores mod are worse than dirt and it has no special abilities worth mentioning. It only redeeming grace is it size and flight speed, but seeing it whopping strength and con will never use them properly. THEN you tackled LA on it. Seriously? --Leziad (talk) 01:10, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

There is a fundamental problem here: flight is really really powerful before level 5, and handed out like candy by level 10. As such, there is no way for this race to be worth staying a constant number of class levels behind the rest of the party. --50.47.36.22 02:07, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Level Adjustment

I'm sure a 1st level sorcerer with +4 Dex, Tiny size, and flight would make any normal 1st level caster green with envy, even with the -6 Con and penalties to dump stats. That makes listing an LA essential right there. Even of the DM doesn't use LA as such, the implied balance information is still needed, and should be in the standard SRD format.--Ideasmith (talk) 01:30, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Stat Penalties

The stat penalties could certainly be toned down. They are at optimum levels for the concept, but concept can be bent for the sake of playability. --Ideasmith (talk) 01:30, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Racial Trait Obsolescence

Most LA races have this problem. Assuming one solution would short-circuit any DM who chose a different solution, and I greatly doubt any such solution is used by a majority of DMs. I'm thinking I might add a balance note, along the lines of:

Balance Note: As with most races that have level adjustment, a dweomerwings racial traits will become obsolete at high levels. If allowing some form of LA buyoff, good points at which to allow such buyoff are level x and level y. --Ideasmith (talk) 01:30, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

That's too timid. If allowing some form of LA buyoff normally, the DM is a bit of a loon. If not allowing it here, the Dweomerwing is sad. Speak with confidence, man! Demand that the Dweomerwing have an LA buyoff mechanic of a sort that's balanced for them. Or make their flight scale to be respectable at every level. --Foxwarrior (talk) 06:39, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

FYI, I'm a fan of Dragonborn/Raptorian style scaling flights. It really helps lower the LA. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 07:32, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Thirded. LA Buyoff is a handy way to kill game balance and is a bad idea on multiple levels. --Ghostwheel (talk) 09:03, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Fourthed. I would really like to be able to like this. I dig the idea of Lilliputian races, and I'd like to see more of them. Flight issues and questionable LA aside, if you're having trouble with fluff, there's no shame in grabbing a co-author if it helps make your race better. Spanambula (talk) 00:38, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

Big Comments on Teeny Race

Rather than post a big comment in the ratings section, I'm just going to make a new section and carry on from there. Be assured that I refreshed myself on everything at hand here first so hopefully I won't sound like a lost, wandering old man. As a fair note, parts of this will feel disjointed from the rest, as it's basically a collection of thoughts put into paragraphs which don't necessarily have good flow from one to the next.

With the recent update that cleared up some of the initial confusion I had about what this was aiming to be, we can get into some meaty design stuff. Because it's the first thing people see (though not necessarily read), we're going to be starting with the flavor. That means that we're starting with the name, because as I said, I was grumpy about it before. Less grumpy now. Mostly, I dislike the name because its sort of an extra layer of obfuscation in a bad way. Does anyone even really know what dweomer means? I've had to look that word up like four times and I can never remember. It's got a D&D connotation of "weak magic" from what I can tell (though apparently stems from norse dwarf magic? Maybe?). Anyways, that name is an awkward amalgamation. If you're going for a Tinkerbell thing, perhaps a name that rings of author J. M. Barrie, Neverland-stuff or other contemporary source like the Cottingley Fairies. If you're worried about the name expressing what the race is with any amount of clarity, tack on "sprite" since they seem to fall within that group and will instantly clue people in. It's also got some features that go along with that designation, but you can ignore those, you're not writing for Wizards of the Coast here. Anyways, here are some links to explain some things and give you some research ideas:

Peter Pan Tinkerbell Cottingley Fairies

Alright, we made it past the name, onto the actual flavor meat. I'm gonna lump Personality and Relations into the same bit of discussion, since there is some overlap there. I get (sorta) what you're aiming for, but it just doesn't work for me. There's no give and take with the world around them and what is there is almost totally unsupported for why that is. Elves are aloof and often haughty because they're long lived, have lots of culture that was refined over a long time and take advantage of that. Dwarves are greedy because they're in constant competition with races that despoil and plunder resources at quick rates (goblins and orcs) are close to the earth and its elements. These guys here admire and do whatever without much perceived outside reason because… fey? Readers need to know the "why" of how the race is the way it is, otherwise the flavor is pointless and likely to just be ignored in favor of how they want to use the mechanics (which is fine, players can do whatever they want). Which brings me to the next point about writing personality: Don't write for a character, write for a race. In this case, you're essentially reverse-engineering how you perceive a character into the behavior of a race as a whole. This can be done, you just have to broaden it enough to find where the elements that are likely the result of the creature and not the result of the life that creature had. So, think about some origins.

Don't know where the young come from or how they're raised? Just say "We don't know where they come from." and leave it to the player or DM to provide their own set up that works for their game. Fey creatures often need a bit of mystery anyhow, and over-explaining things can ruin that feeling of untamed primal nature formed into an uncontrolled, spirited humanoid form with wings that flits about with little alien thoughts in its head.

Alignment is fine, and as a section, often doesn't need much explanation for most races.

Lands is woefully sparse. What do their homes look like? What types of locales do they favor? How do they defend themselves? Do they have any social structure? It seems like they should since you go on in Religion that apparently they love worshipping all kinds of things, and do so however they please and don't get the ol' smite for it.

Language is fine, and again, as a section, often doesn't need much, being perhaps one of the most under-utilized sections for homebrewers. Most folk just don't know what to do with it. It's a good chance for you to elaborate on how they speak, if they keep records and how any culture might be transmitted from one generation to the next.

Names would be nice if you had listings for male and female names but whatever, it looks like all names that end with an "a" are probably female names. Do they only have single names? Do they have nick-names? Do they get titles? How do they get their names? How do they get their names especially considering they have typical names but no mention of culture? See how the consequences of information from one section helps feed understanding in the rest of the article, providing support?

Alright, on to the Racial Traits. We'll look at what you're aiming for and hopefully give you what you need to meet that goal. I don't know why that sentence was in the royal first person. Anyways, first up is ability score adjustments. These are often the first thing people look at for races, as they're in the sorted list of races and right after summary. Some bonuses and penalties, sure fine good. A +4 anything is often worth/balanced out by losing a level of progression in a class, since the extra bonus makes up for penalty. For casters, that's often trickier since they're losing out on spell levels and access to higher spells sooner as well, so the compensating bits elsewhere in the racial traits have to balance that out. With your +4 in Dexterity, you're actually gearing this creature toward being a ranged combatant instead of a caster… but with the +2 Charisma, being a fair ranged attack spell caster might work as well. So, on average, they'll be over-encumbered at 20 pounds, so they better keep all their stuff in a Bag of Holding Type I… on someone else because Heavy Load. Also, kind of a shame that a creature of nature is better at arcane spells than divine ones (sorry druid/ranger). So, onto the next topic beast.

The big problems to overcome in the racial traits: LA, Flight, Size, Interesting Abilities/Things to do

The thing about racial HD vs. LA (as it applies here): You appear to be under the impression that having RHD will make a caster (specifically a sorcerer) an unplayable option for the race. If anything, it'll make it easier, because you'll have HD, which can have features that you write in like "count as X level sorcerer or whatever class blah blah blah", making it playable out of the box. The goal for making this workable is going to be tricky, since there are some hurdles, but with some good writing, we can overcome those obstacles. Maybe something like:

Spell Boost (Su): May boost the level of a spell, as though the spell were actually a spell level higher, including caster level, either cast on her or by her. swift/immediate action and however so often with whatever cool down other than a limitation by times per day. Limited to like an amount equal Charisma bonus (minimum 1) per 10 minutes should suffice for encounter/post encounter/immediate activity scenario limitations. It also provides a use to non-casters who receive spells cast on them.

Anyways, racial HD are much more functional for character construction than LA. Though racial HD do grant power to a race (where as LA is just a big hole you fill with abilities and bonuses), it's worth it in the long run to construct your design around them, and is much easier to gauge a creature's power when you can see it's obvious stats as it sits right there. The trick is giving it just enough to do to fill a role in the party while allowing flexibility to build a character on top of. Too many abilities and bonuses and you stifle character growth. Not enough abilities and your character can't contribute and feels bland/too reliant on gear. Multiple abilities that use the same action add tactical decision making without adding much power, making play interesting. Multiple situational bonuses/abilities are nice too since there is likely little overlap and keeps power boost down. Straight skill bonuses are boring, but providing certain skills as "always class skills" are a nice way of saying "you can keep working at being this creature your whole career" which is an approach I tend to favor. Listen, Handle Animal and Sense Motive might be good skills for that as suggestions. You'll also want to say what their racial class skills are for racial HD (and maybe just say "hey, all racial skills are always class skills").

Flight is a weird one. At early levels it's basically just letting you bypass danger/traps/melee combat with fewer than reasonable DM counters. At higher levels, it's almost expected that most parties have access to it somehow to overcome certain challenges. So, how to scale it then is the concern. Unlimited flight later, at least after 5 ECL is probably fine for this. Before that you'll probably want to limit it to something like a pool of flight points or something, making a point about falling/gliding or whatever. Your flight points could be based on Constitution or Charisma or whatever. Flavor wise, this means that early on, your little sprite is going to have to find suitable perches to sit on, like support beams, the tops of paintings and so forth rather than just outright landing on the ground. As for flight as a level-inappropriate ability, having a couple racial HD in there counters the earliest levels of problems. Also, you may as well just go with perfect maneuverability for their flight. It's only one step away, but makes it so much easier for characters to navigate… like by flying in a dungeon since flight is their main mode of transportation and not be constantly behind because they lose 5 feet of movement distance by rounding a corner… if I can even make sense of fly rules.

Size is a major concern as well, since it tacks on both considerable bonuses and penalties. Specific counters to character types that are chosen to avoid penalties need to be made while not crippling characters who choose not to do so. This is basically impossible here, especially with the expressed intent of "make it suitable for sorcerer". Melee characters here are likely not going to happen, but ranged attackers might happen, with spells being the primary functional goal. The cold iron vulnerability is a nice start to that as far as "make characters totally paranoid as glass cannons" sort of thing that's common among sprites. However, I rather dislike the implementation (that save system is awful) but the Dexterity penalty and flight suppression are interesting. Recommendation: Have it be automatic on any damage by cold iron (perhaps even possession of cold iron, so shackles of cold iron keep them grounded). Have just the Dexterity penalty on damage by any iron. Cold iron just isn't common enough to be enough of a DM counter for the bonuses associated with Tiny size. With a penalty associated to common iron, that gives DMs a good available counter without having to weirdly tack on cold iron weapons to opponents all the time just to balance things out.

Seriously, Tinkerbell and no pixie dust ability? Races should have interesting abilities that they can keep using/doing/taking advantage of throughout their lives, helping to reinforce the creature as an integral part of the character. Now, just because a race should have interesting abilities, doesn't mean they have to (and certainly don't come anywhere near always having them). These abilities can really be anything, as long as they're fun. Straight bonus things are boring (and are often basically just mechanical numbers tinkering anyways). You'll want to give this some thought as it can be rather tricky to come up with a fun ability for a race.

I don't understand the implementation of the Aura ability. Having it is fine, but the mechanics of it are really odd. The always "strong" level of the aura and the school changing… which I guess is for confusing those who use detect magic… even though anyone using detect magic would then see the school change and get tipped off about it. Anyways, mostly just curious about your input on this one and would prefer it if the aura scaled with ECL/HD (something like having a functional spell level equal to its HD divided by two for the purposes of detect magic, which might seem like a hassle to track, but doesn't change during play and more accurately tracks the actual power of the creature itself with concerns to how the spell operates in D&D for other things rather than being disingenuous by having it always be "strong").

Faerie glow at will is fine… but I left a comment/question on the talk page of that article in case you haven't seen it yet.

We all do this for fun. We're not trying to make you make something you don't want to make, we're just trying to help you make the thing you want to make work as close to that goal as possible, because sometimes, the goal straight up just won't work (certain things unfortunately just don't translate well to D&D). It's fun to homebrew stuff, but it also requires a lot of effort, as evidenced by this long, long (that's what she said) comment. Hopefully you got something out of this, I know it was a lot to digest. If you need assistance, just post your goals and thoughts here on the talk page and we'll provide what input we can (that's less of a royal first person this time and more of us as a community… likely mostly just Eiji and me and possibly that one Canadian guy, what's his name, Lezaisaurus, yeah, that's gotta be it). To everyone else who weathered this comment, seriously, go read up on that Cottingley fairy thing, it's really interesting stuff. Not as interesting as actual eye-witness reports of gnomes in bubble cars, but we aren't talking about those guys here today. --Ganteka Future (talk) 03:51, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Name/Obfuscation?: While your associating the word 'dweomer' with a particular strength/nationality may be more typical and/or definite than I suppose, 'dweomerwing' doesn't seem all that confusing. (The word dweomer is a useful synonym for magic coined by Gary Gygax. If a room contains 3 spell effects and 2 magic items, you can't really say that there are five 'magics' in the room, but can say that there are five 'dweomers' in the room.)

Name/Research Suggestions: Thank you for the research suggestions. Meanwhile, would changing the name to pixie-kin be an improvement?

Personality/Relations: The kindred descriptions in the PH are notably light on 'why' (and don't say why dwarves are sometimes greedy or elves typically aloof). If this encourages players to ignore the fluff and make up their own, then I'm all in favor of it.

Lands: The 'regardless of the deity's wishes' bit was intended as a description of dweomerwing attitude, not a limit on deity reaction to that attitude. And I probably ought to tone that down. I'm not sure how their highly individualistic worship implies a social structure. Some thoughts about additonal detail:

'When a dweomerwing community needs something done, it is done by whatever dweomerwing happens to feel like doing it. If no dweomerwing feels like doing it, it doesn't get done.'

'They gain food by hunting and gathering, and not much of that, since dweomerwings eat little even for their size.' [Should get some mechanics for that.]

Should include something about dweomerwings in human lands.

Names: I'm thinking that cribbing the 'minor characters' list from a TV show I haven't seen was a bad idea.

Racial Traits/General: A thoughtful and convincing analysis.

Arcane Child of Nature: A point shared with many fey, most notably pixies, which were my starting point in designing this kindred.

Racial HD: This would leave Tiny dweomerwings with more racial hit dice than Small pixies. Well, I'm sure the Monster Manual has wierder discrepencies.

Spell Boost: Certainly an appropriate ability. I assume that by "including caster level", you mean that it also adds 1 or 2 to the effective caster level. I think I prefer a flat 5-minute recharge to a variable amount every 10 minutes. Perhaps this should also work for spell-like abilities?

Skills: I'm inclined towards Concentration, Escape Artist, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Spot as racial class skills. I don't think I'll add more bonuses, or always class skills.

Flight/General: I really dislike having class levels improve kindred abilities; I'm thinking racial feats &/or a paragon class.

Flight/Flight Points: About how much flight would a flight point provide? Might a recharge time also work? Perhaps one round of flight at a time, five minutes between flights, less with feats &/or paragon levels?

Flight/Perches: The obvious perch would be an ally's shoulder or pack. I'm inclined to make this easier by adding a 'feather perch' ability so she won't count towards the ally's encumberance.

Flight/Perfect Manueverability: Sounds good.

Cold Iron Vulnerability: Sounds good. Steel presumably counts as normal iron?

Pixie Dust: I've been figuring this as a magic item or a spell. Still, since I'll be having flight improve, a feat or class feature allowing others to fly makes sense.

Aura/Strength: I wasn’t expecting the dweomerwing to have racial hit dice, and their advancement would be ‘by character class’ in any case.

Aura/School: I didn't like the implications of a fixed school for the aura, and my other ideas for when/how the school would change involved inconvenient book-keeping. Ideasmith (talk) 14:31, 17 January 2015 (UTC)