Talk:Functional Craft Item Rule (3.5e Variant Rule)

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	Fluffykittens favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	Obvious rule patch is obvious.

Hi Eiji, I have some concerns.

I saw that you did speak briefly about the intrinsic changes to the nature of the economy by scaling up Craft.. Though I do actually have a couple problems with the math. First, you have scaled up daily earnings by a factor of 100, not 70. That, or you meant check X DC in GP per week, rather than per day. I wouldn't actually have a big problem with scaling weekly progress to GP.

I can see this being a serious problem at first level, or low level period for that matter. As it's currently written, if I'm any class at all with access to craft, which is well, all of them. Lets assume I am playing a first level character with no racial bonus to INT, so my bonus to INT is say, +1, not unrealistic and because I am looking to make some dough to get myself started I put 4 ranks into a craft skill. According to the rules, which craft skill is completely unimportant, the amount of progress and it's value is completely independent of the nature of the product being crafted. But I really want to make some money in a way my DM can't quibble with, at least without undermining the entire economy.. So I choose to put my 4 ranks in gem-cutting. Now at character generation I spend all of 5 gold on an ordinary set of gem-cutting tools. I hold onto most of my starting gold, after all I am going to need money to make money.

So to continue with the example, it's day 1 of the campaign, I totally bypass the tavern, go out and spend say the 50 gold I have on hand buying the raw materials for a 150 GP finished gemstone. I then go off and find a quiet place, or perhaps even rent an inn room for another two gold. I don't bother to roll, I'll take a 10 on my craft check and assuming as many of us would that cutting a gemstone is crafting a high quality item, it does take precision after all. So the DC is 15, my skill modifier is a total of a 5, so by taking a 10 I make the check, yay. So I have the capacity to get 225 GP's worth of progress done today, sadly I only have the materials for the 150 GP gem today so that's all I make. Day 1, 150 GP gem finished. The next morning, I ignore that guy in the street screaming about plot hooks, and go trade my new gem for a set of masterwork tools, the 85 GP worth of materials it will require to make the 255 GP gem that's my target for day two, and I pocket the 10 gold in change that I can now use as beer money. Well The DC is the same, my skill modifier is the same but I now get +2 from my perfect tools so the equation is now DC 15 x check of 17 for a total of 255. Hey 255 GP gem is sweet, I can keep doing this ad infinitum my daily costs assuming that inn room plus materials is 87 gold, so I make 167 gold each day from day 2 onward. All I have to do is ignore all those loonies and their talk about plots and missing princesses for two weeks, and I can tromp off on my first adventure in spiffy masterwork full plate with masterwork weapons and shield, all strapped to the back of my new warhorse.. None of that even required a single die roll. It could all be declared and gotten out of the way in the first 5 minutes of the first session unless the DM railroad train happens to stop on by.

Looked at that way, 2 weeks of crafting with these rules, even with full accounting of costs still means that the player has earned more than twice the gold they should get through adventuring between level 1 to 2. All those orcs and goblins wont stand a chance...

Now I completely agree that the craft rules are broken as is. I would actually suggest something along the lines of either a simple rescale of the rules to DCxCheck GP per WEEK of progress and DCxCheck SP per DAY. That scales the economy up by only a factor of 10 which is more manageable while still allowing players to whip off a longsword in 5 to 6 hours of labour, which coincidentally is about the time it takes a modern swordsmith with a full suite of modern tools to whip out a longsword.

If you are willing to put in a bit more effort, might I suggest s simple sliding scale based on skill, which is alluded to in DMG2 for example. Say, the craft rules work as published in the PH when a character has 1-5 ranks in a craft skill. 6-12 ranks, they have moved onto the quality of work a journeyman can produce and the daily progress valuation would be bumped from CP per day to SP per day. 13-20 ranks and the character has the acknowledged skills of a master of their craft, and their work is valued even more highly, turning SP per day of progress into GP per day of progress. 21+ ranks of skill is the province of true legends in their field, and their work would move from GP per day of progress to PP per day. Another way of looking at this is that as a character gains in true skill (ranks) they learn the tips and tricks necessary to use their time more efficiently, and thus be more productive according to my suggested sliding scale. This system would also prevent the character with a really high INT from completely outproducing an average craftsman of equivalent level, but still make at least a little more money per day. It would also prevent a player from buying a +2 headband of intellect to jack up their earnings after just three weeks of work. It also means that a high level wizard, who has jacked his INT out the wazoo who decides to drop a rank into a craft skill can't just declare making thousands of gold without so much as a roll during even a few weeks of downtime. Tunganation 11:49, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

I did actually mean gold per day, but you have a stronger base here. Bumping up the gold of items in general does mean ultimately poor people get richer. I find the GP by week SP by day to be valid too. My only rebuttal would be: it doesn't really matter. Why?

Well, potentially even at the terribly slow SP per week and CP per day rules WotC gave us, you can very well produce a profit from crafting alone. Even ignoring dirty tricks like "forests of quarterstaves" or "three warforged from one" tricks, ultimately you're earning something, and given NI time you make NI profit. The trick is of course, "how fast are you making profit". Your example above is earning ~167g a day, which is nice but will take a while to greatly exceed level 2 WBL. Which in theory is a great thing but in practice I find it wouldn't work because you're not playing D&D, you're playing Businesses & Bosses. I would imaging a DM would throw the book at you and make you get on with it and save the day from the dread X Y Z, counting your time spend putzing around with business against you. What's that? You're too late to save the princess and now zombies took over the land? Too bad you were busy cutting gems instead of dragons, hero.

But I'm commiting a logic error here, I know. Saying "well my DM would do this" isn't much of a reason. I just feel it's important to illustrate here that the inherent problem: obtaining more profit than you should be allowed, isn't something inherent in this rule but actually inherent in any crafting rule. With that said, I actually have no issue with the SP/GP method you suggest, even if I find the GP one to be more fitting for the games I run. Thoughts? (EDIT: Btw I like the scaling concept. I am... thinking on it.) -- Eiji-kun 23:04, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Weirdness

Why do you craft more complex items faster? O.o --Ghostwheel (talk) 17:16, 24 September 2013 (UTC)