Talk:Grimoire Rogue (3.5e Alternate Class Feature)

Ratings

	Leziad favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	The reason I have not wrote a Codex Rogue. But seriously it a sincerely good class that make rogue worth playing.

	Aarnott favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!
	Probably should be a full base class and not ACF imo. That being said, it is a great rogue remake with many options and great customization.

Special Thanks

Special thanks to the Pathfinder rogue and to Frank & K for their Thief-Acrobat and Assassin, all of which inspired many of the abilities of this variant rogue. --Ghostwheel 09:13, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

TWF Progression

I know you're probably using your itterative attack variant, but for those of us who aren't... did you intend to give rogues bonus off-hand attacks before they get their bonus main-hand attacks from having a high bab? It's not a big deal, it's just kind of weird. - TarkisFlux 04:48, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Yep. Kinda weird, but it keeps them at slightly more attacks than a full-BAB character, which is the intent. That said, what do you think of the class? (Note the changes to Sneak Attack) --Ghostwheel 06:35, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Thoughts

Since you asked, here's the no-justification short version: Didn't like the SA changes in pathfinder, don't like them here. Don't particularly feel the need to give rogues more AC through shielded in life as a bonus feat as that doesn't feel like a typical rogue thing to me. Cloak and dagger is interesting, but means you just spend some cash on a combat pet with 5' reach or mount and you flank everything. Actually hate deft blade, a lot (but then I don't share your desire to put everyone on the same RNG), and don't understand why you put it in when they could have taken your weapon training feat anyway (since they don't stack, and you'll get deft blade all the time anyway). And I have no idea why you'd want to give your basically full-bab more class more attacks than the regular full-bab classes on top of getting level scaling damage (which you'll get all the time thanks to cloak and dagger). There are some interesting rogue tricks, and I'll take those over trapsense, but I find it odd that you keep getting low level ones at higher levels after you have access to the better ones rather than getting better ones with the option of taking multiple low level ones if you still wanted them for some reason. And I miss uncanny dodge, but that's a relatively minor gripe. - TarkisFlux 16:09, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Interested in hearing the reasons I added most of those things, or not particularly? --Ghostwheel 18:57, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Regarding the continued acquisition of low level rogue tricks at higher levels, the "more attacks at basically full-bab than the full-bab characers", and why they get deft blade instead of being able to opt-in for weapon training, sure. The rest I'm pretty sure I understand, I just don't agree with the reasoning behind the change or just don't agree that it was a necessary addition. - TarkisFlux 20:28, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Do you think that rogues should stop gaining the regular tricks at higher levels? Why? --Ghostwheel 21:29, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

I think that gaining a low level ability at high levels isn't really appropriate. I don't want to give someone an ability at level at level 16 that was appropriate for a level 4 character. I could see gaining 2 low level instead of a mid level trick, or 4 low level instead of a high level trick (assuming there are enough tricks to go around), but after you are a level where you can get the better stuff you don't really look forward to getting a bit more of the lower level stuff again when you level. - TarkisFlux 19:49, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

One should get more attacks because the rogue is a damage-dealer (striker?) character who specializes in dealing lots of damage. If he got the same number of attacks, his damage potential compared to other characters would be meh-ish, which is what I'm trying to get away from. --Ghostwheel 21:29, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

I thought you were moving towards equalizing damage, not bringing everyone up to the old SA DPR level and then boosting the rogue on top of it. I thought your previously stated design intent was for every character bringing down an opponent in an average of 4 hits / rounds (i don't remember which you said actually) through their combat specialty. Boosting the rogue to be a "damage dealer" instead of a "specialist against otherwise engaged enemies" seems to go against that. Still, if I misunderstood or you've changed your goals that's fine, and this does what you say you want after boosting everyone elses' damage. - TarkisFlux 19:49, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

The intent was actually to bring all damage dealers to the same level as one would expect from a decently optimized combat rogue (rogue 4 / swashbuckler 16 by level 20) without having to optimize, and between them all the grimoire striker-types deal that kind of damage. Let's take the below example; at 16th level, you'll get +3 to attacks, bringing your attack from BAB and competence to +12 (before Tojutsu, -2 with that, and -2 from iterative attacks variant almost the same as that of a full-level warblade who full-attacks or very similar that of a rogue/swashbuckler), and they would get 5 attacks per round (assuming they picked up Improved TWF as a feat), four attacks getting +2d6 damage from Sneak Attack, three attacks getting +2d6 from tojutsu, and up to two attacks that hit getting +4d6 damage from Psychic Strike. So your attacks sequence assuming you have 28 Dex, two +2 flaming shortswords, Weapon Focus, and are flanking will look like +22/+22/+22/+22/+22 (under the iterative attack variant) and damage will be 7d6+2/7d6+2/5d6+2/5d6+2/5d6+2 with an extra +4d6 on the first two that hit. And the character will probably get Spiritual Weapon with Dex, so add +8 to the first three and +4 to the last two on top of that. I don't know if it looks like a lot or a little to you, but I think that's pretty decent damage at that level, and if a good number of attacks hit the damage can add up quickly, with characters expected to do around 50 damage per round at that level. And on top of that you're getting loads of feats that you can use to open up new options or flavor your character as you like. --Ghostwheel 20:39, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

For some reason I thought you were using a generic rogue, not the rogue/swashbuckler with minor feat investment, as your measure. With the right measure in place, this setup makes more sense and I understand why you did it the way you did it. - TarkisFlux 21:01, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

*nod* The way I see it, there's a fairly wide gulf between the power of non-optimized rogue-level classes without optimization (like the psychic warrior, duskblade, rogue, etc, as opposed to pre-optimized classes like the swordsage, crusader, warblade, etc) and I want to narrow that as much as possible without giving character the ability to transcend the power of pre-optimized classes completely. Thus, more pre-optimized classes are created that are similar as a base in power to similar characters that are pre-optimized and optimized without the ability to optimize too much (for example, this version of the rogue bars the use of flurry, tojutsu, natural weapons, and so on). Furthermore, previously optimized characters are not made redundant, since the previous rogue 4 / swashbuckler 8 would have similar damage from SA, would have a similar attack bonus (with deft blade, wouldn't get the extra attack from tojutsu), but would have a slightly higher attack bonus since they have 11 BAB and the penalty to attacks from the iterative attack variant would drop from -2 to -1. That way, everything meshes together, tying into each other and balancing on the whole. Such a rogue would get four attacks (assuming they pick up Improved TWF), and with similar stats/equipment would have an attack sequence of +25/+25/+25/+25, and each attack would deal 8d6+2 damage and a very similar damage output to the above due to the higher attack bonus and slightly more damage per attack while not having as many attacks. --Ghostwheel 21:15, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Since I expect every character at this level to deal around 50-75 damage per round (25% more for strongly optimized characters), both can achieve this without too much trouble depending on dice rolls; the multiclasser needs to hit 2-3 times (what with the lower attack roll by more attacks per round), while the combat rogue needs only to hit around 2 times, which he does on average against the objective-AC of 36. --Ghostwheel 21:24, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Deft Blade (and the competence bonus from other classes) are meant to be used for when a character multiclasses. For example, if a Rogue 4 / Tenken 4 was flanking he'd get get +1 to all attacks, and if he was using Tojutsu he'd get +1 to attack, and when using both he's get +2 to attacks (same bonus as Weapon Training would give). It allows for such combination to be viable (and I think that even a Rogue 4 / Tenken 4 / Soulknife 4 could be very viable and do decent damage when using flanking, tojutsu psychic strikes without Weapon Training, when this wouldn't normally be a viable combination). I realize that I hadn't made it clear that they stack, but I meant for them to (and clarified for all the classes). Weapon Training is a way for characters who want to spend a feat to break free from the "traditional attacks" clause or who don't multiclass by multiples of 4 to gain the bonus without too much attack bonus loss unless they take 2 levels in 10 medium-BAB classes or something equivalent. ---Ghostwheel 00:47, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

That makes sense actually, in conjunction with your decision to use the Full BAB RNG for combat and determining reasonable ACs. Thanks :-) - TarkisFlux 19:49, May 10, 2010 (UTC)

Sneak Attack

Did you mean for them to not be able to sneak attack things that they surprise (without flanking)? With Helpless instead of denied dex to AC as the requirement, you can't sneak attack for going first or sneaking up on your enemies. --IGTN 20:50, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Right; the main way that the grimoire rogue deals damage is through flanking attacks. I wanted to do away with the ranged rogue entirely, and make a slightly more specialized (as far as delivering damage) melee rogue who has a focus and does very well in it without having to optimize too much beyond that. That said, you can use the Surprise Attack rogue trick to use daggers at range on the surprise round, and with Ranged Threat you can use feats to open up different "paths" for rogues, effectively creating a ranged-ish rogue. --Ghostwheel 21:07, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

That actually doesn't address IGTN's concern at all. Even with a melee weapon you don't get SA for going first anymore or for attacking people who don't know you're there. Sneak up and stab someone? No SA unless flanking or helpless. Invisible? No SA unless flanking or helpless. Ambush? No SA unless flanking or helpless. Is that intended? - TarkisFlux 21:47, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

If they're supposed to be able to use it for, well, sneaking, it should work when sneaking without needing to spend an optional ability on it. If you don't want ranged combat to be the default, then make it take an option to get that. But what you did now takes an ability called Sneak Attack, and makes it not work when you sneak up on someone and stab them in the face. --IGTN 22:02, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

I'd disagree on the being unable "to sneak up on someone and stab them in the face" what with getting it on surprise rounds. That said, no, I don't particularly want to allow sneak attacks on someone who's blinking, which would also mean that I'd have to throw Invisibility out the window as well. In the end it comes down to mechanical vs. flavorful, and mechanical is far more important to me. In an actual fight 99% of the time, I'd imagine that the rogue would have someone else with them to help flank with. That said, that does bring up a few interesting possibilities that I'll be adding to the class... --Ghostwheel 22:31, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

Added flat-footed as a condition, and expanded some of the ways that rogues can get enemies to become flat-footed even mid-combat. This would also mean that the old Grease trick (perhaps gotten with Improved Magic Trick and used as a swift action) would work. --Ghostwheel 22:48, May 5, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think you got it on surprise rounds (short of taking the rogue trick) until you put that back in actually. If you still want to eliminate the ranged rogue, you could just write in that sneak attack requires a melee weapon. Melee only also hits the blink thing a bit, since you can't avoid the miss chance then, without also hurting invis. If you wanted to open ranged up at all, you could do so with a rogue trick (and thus character investment) that gave you SA on ranged weapons (or weapon if you want to make it really restricted) under all of the standard conditions. - TarkisFlux 00:05, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

I don't want to completely eliminate ranged rogues--one can still used ranged weapons on a surprise round or with feats (Ranged Threat), but I don't want to make it so easy to get SA either. Works fine as it is, I think, with another option opening up in Feinting maneuvers. --Ghostwheel 00:47, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

I think you mean ranged flanking, but I see what you mean. Note that you can also use ranged weapons while invisible again, since that leaves targets flatfooted. You only have to make the investment to be able to use ranged weapons non-stealthily. I'm really not trying to pick nits on this, I just want to get it working as intended. - TarkisFlux 01:02, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

I believe that invisibility denies dex to AC, but doesn't actually make enemies flat-footed :-P --Ghostwheel 01:17, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

Indeed it does. Point to you. - TarkisFlux 01:19, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

message from Griz

hey there! Listen, I have talked to some knowledgable folks and we all agree that this class is too powerful. Also, the rouge from our game has returned so if you want to explore other classes please do so

griz

Could you please explain why you think it's too powerful? Will never be able to make it better unless I know what's wrong with it or why. --Ghostwheel 23:33, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Use Magic Device

I notice you have removed UMD from the rogue's skill list. While I don't think I have a problem with this given all the other options, I know some rogues who would miss it a lot. I think there are enough crunchy and flavorful bits to make this class otherwise useful, but would you consider making "you may now treat UMD as a class skill" as a rogue trick? I think the arcane-aided rogue is as common in gameplay as the acrobatic rogue. --The Badger 05:12, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Mostly for balance reasons; UMD is a horribly horrible skill of horrible proportions, allowing most characters who have it with the right equipment to easily be wizard-level. The version of this rogue is supposed to be standalone rogue-level; people can always pick up UMD through a countless number of means, but I'd rather keep this version strictly rogue-level. For the arcane-aided rogue... that's what the Magic Trick is for. --Ghostwheel 06:27, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Meh. Maybe it's my lack of imagination, but waiting until 10th level to get to use 1 1st level spell once an encounter is hardly worth it...even if it is as a swift action. The "keeping it strictly rogue level" is a good enough reason for me. I was mostly wondering why.--The Badger 22:47, June 2, 2010 (UTC)