Talk:Quick Counter (3.5e Feat)

Ratings

	Foxwarrior likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.
	Readying actions is fun, and this gives archers something to do about casters.

	Aarnott is neutral on this article and rated it 2 of 4.
	I only dislike this being tagged as rogue-level. There are way too many ways a character could completely control an opponent or just simply get (mostly) free attacks.

	Ghostwheel dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.
	What Aarnie said, I feel the same way, especially with the various shenanigans you can come up with not only with attacks, but also with swift actions.

	Wildmage likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.
	I do not see a problem giving some boost to the non casters, and this is Rogue level in my mind.

It was a close call between Rogue and Wizard. Ultimately I decided this was useful like Power Attack, not so much like DMM. The choice was by limiting it basically to normal attacks, and (usually underwhelming) combat options like disarm. As Ghostwheel brings up, tripping is good, but typically you need a fair amount of optimization to make tripping really good. A hidden feat cost if you will, requiring Improved Trip and the like if you want to take advantage of that feature. -- Eiji-kun 03:38, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Edits have been made. As put by MS, "Near as I can tell, it changes readies from a standard to a swift." and that is basically right, though attack or swift action only instead of standard, so non-swift spellcasting is not possible. I've tightened it up to being single-target only, making its usefulness when facing crowds drop. It's still a bit open-ended, but these are problems with readied actions themselves and not the feat, so I am comfortable leaving it how it is. After some thought, I will also retain the rogue tag level, as gaining an extra attack just isn't enough of a gamechanger to account for wizard level. -- Eiji-kun 08:31, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Action Economy

It doesn't set your initiative to the new value, like a normal readied action, does it? --Foxwarrior 19:37, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

No it doesn't. -- Eiji-kun 03:38, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Effectively Hasted

Getting an extra attack at your highest BAB all day every day, or always readying trips for the ubertripper after someone's already gotten up >_> --Ghostwheel 20:46, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Possible, so long as you set it to something the enemy does. With that in mind there's a chance of failure, especially if you keep readying for the same action, so the enemy might get wise that everytime it attacks, you trip it... and might instead choose to move or something else. -- Eiji-kun 03:38, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

"In response to them doing anything after getting up, I trip them." A half-smart player will always find some way to word it so it goes off exactly when they want it to. That and there are a LOT more ways to break this apart from that if you want another example. --Ghostwheel 06:02, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Or "If he gets up, I trip him," but there is nothing wrong with that. Hell, I would reward a player for setting up a situation like that. And there are ways out of triggering the action, so it's not even as powerful as your whining makes it out to be. Case in point, both of of our examples can be avoided by not getting up.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 18:46, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes! Because having -4 to AC against the guy whacking at you, having a movement speed reduced to 5' per round (not per move action), taking an AoO on all movement and being unable to attack effectively with the majority of weapons is SOOO advantageous to most characters! --Ghostwheel 19:05, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Spaz: No. It creates a vicious circle in which the ubertripper effectively keeps the person permanently prone. Which, as Ghost pointed out, is a pretty severe hindrance. I'm not sure there's a hardline way to prevent the issue, though, unless you specifically name actions that can be readied against. Which is kind of not fun. - TG Cid 20:23, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I genuinely don't get the tripstar concern. Can't a tripstar already keep a person down all the time just by making a trip attack with the AoO that the target provokes by standing up? At best, this works as a counter in the event that the target doesn't provoke for standing up (which seems a reasonable result from a feat investment), and at worst it's just an extra chance to keep them down. Why is this a big deal? - Tarkisflux ^Talk 20:55, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Also, there is the ultimate counter to tripping- the counter trip. Not the free trip that a failed trip provokes, but the consequence free tripping the tripped one can attempt. If you succeed, he is down, if you fail, he gets a free trip attempt against a prone person.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 05:45, 3 February 2012 (UTC)