Talk:Ruffian (5e Subclass)

Ratings

Blocked Rating

Ghostwheel opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.

This rating refers to a substantially different version of the article, or concerns mentioned in it have already been addressed.This is way too strong, especially compared to other rogue archetypes. Increased AC, access to proficiency in all the primary stat saves, the ability to attack twice, a debuff, and a save every round or be stunned? Nothing in 5e comes close. This is just overpowered in every single way.

Thankyou

Sorely need the rating, the people I had previously shown off wiki all thought it was fine. Now to work on fixing it. --Stryker (talk) 19:36, 8 May 2019 (MDT)

Vaegrim's Pre-Rating Review

I already have some opinions about writing Rogue archetypes, so that'll weigh on my evaluation. Overall it seems tuned a bit too high, with a shockingly single-minded combat focus (for a rogue). Notes by level:

• Medium armor helps the rogue in the medium term, though it's a little annoying at levels 1 & 2. That benefit flattens out by 8th though (when the rogue would have hit 20 dex), so you'll need to bear that in mind by the 9th level feature. The stealth benefit is absolutely on point for this archetype; that and the warhammer/flail make for a solid concept. The Maul is a big damage bump for Ruffians, the equivalent of an extra d4 per swing. Between that and the Strength save proficiency, the Ruffian feels front-heavy.

• I don't like most of what you've done with Streetfighter. To start, small flat modifiers like this are incredibly rare in 5e with good reason. There's no general rule to prevent these incremental modifiers from stacking like there would be with Conditions or Disadvantage. Since Streetfighter's penalty is checked by any hit, it's possible to stack it up a few times (attack + bonus action with a double-bladed scimitar, OA with reaction). Even if that were ok, it really should be a saving throw rather than a contest. Not only is this yet another ability score tension (Str>Con=Cha>Dex), Intimidation expertise becomes all but mandatory. Even if the whole thing were a balanced penalty with a saving throw, the archetype already has a pretty solid combat buff from 3rd. This feature should probably sit somewhere between the Whisper Bard's Words of Terror and the Swashbuckler Rogue's Panache.

• Brutal Brigand suffers from what I generally term "cutscening"; it's an over-specific set of circumstances to enable a mechanical execution on a particular visual. There's no reason to restrict the weapon to a maul (though melee weapon makes sense, doing this at range would be tough to counter). Ruleswise, hiding is kind of a mess so I wouldn't recommend tying a feature onto it like this. The strength of causally inflicting Stunned is going to incline DMs away from permitting hiding in combat, especially in the case of melee attacks. Since the archetype doesn't otherwise help with being unseen, I expect the play experience will be somewhat inconsistent between different tables. Lastly, it's yet another combat trick for an already combat heavy subclass.

• Unless I'm missing something, Shrug It Off is an Uncanny Dodge that can fail. While this is a problem, it also means you can just wholesale dump it for one of the prior combat tricks and not even sweat it (ideally Brutal Brigand). You'll need a new lower-level feature to replace that though, probably something about smashing doors & walls (since you allude to that in the description).

As is, i'll probably rate it 'Dislike' but I'll give it a week or so while you keep tuning it and/or respond to discussion. --Vaegrim (talk) 23:24, 8 May 2019 (MDT)

Thanks for the review, I'll run through them in order, I definitely need to change things and this a huge help.

• The combat focus of the Ruffian is intentional, purely because the whole idea is to attempt to switch it off focusing on the more social aspects of a rogue and become more of a thuggish brute of a character. The front heavyness, is two-fold, to make it be a bit more distinct from other rogues early on, as well as some of the abilities I'm giving feel a bit weak to hand out early on, but I can probably change some stuff here to move some of those around that.
• The idea of Streetfighter and a decent portion of the class overall is that this is somewhat of a port for a 4e rogue class feature option "Ruthless Ruffian" part of that is the proficiency with the maul/flail/warhammer and the other half is the concept of the Rattling keyword from 4e that Ruthless Ruffian used, which imposed a -2 on attack rolls. I will probably be changing that around, though I forgot to put in the wording that the penalty doesn't stack, so I'm not sure if it not stacking would change it's power too much. I like bucking a trend so although I know flat negatives are rarely used I employed it here for the consistency between the 4e version to here but if it's that much of an issue I'll develop something different.
• Brutal Brigand will probably be being moved to where Shrug it Off as I was already thinking of that, will probably be giving it a restriction other than hiding, potentially uses per short or long rest. Not sure why I put the two-handed requirement there, that'll definitely be removed as it's unnecessary. Will probably make this something about smashing and breaking things as you pointed out as that seems a good brutish option that isn't purely combat focused
• Simply put...I 100% forgot Uncanny Dodge existed when writing this, this will become Brutal Brigand stunning attack when I'm done revising the whole subclass.

I appreciate you holding off on a rating, this was essentially a draft. I don't think anyone in the group I showed it to has much sense for reviewing and balance so getting some actual decent feedback is good for a change.--Stryker (talk) 23:45, 8 May 2019 (MDT)

Hmmm I should probably just change Streetfighter to disadvantage on attack rolls rather than trying to stick to the -2 penalty now that I think about it, I'll wait for another opinion on that but that's probably the route I'm going to go with it.--Stryker (talk) 00:14, 9 May 2019 (MDT)