Talk:Thaumaturge (3.5e Class)

Ratings

Leziad likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.

While I like how the class cast spells and how it essentially make a moderate-high spellcaster playable I find the lack of interesting class features quite dreadful, simply getting more spells is very unfulfilling when leveling up and I feel the class could afford a class feature few level or so without upsetting the balance in any major way. Edit: I did not notice that each path granted a special ability, hur hur hur.

That's what the path abilities are for mostly. I mostly ran out of steam before I had them finished though. --Ghostwheel (talk) 17:45, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

I edited my rating to a like, since I did not notice the path ability for some reason. However I could bump this to a favor if there was slightly more class features (mostly out of combat flavorful ones) or if the path abilities were finished. But right now I like the class, it does moderate-high spellcasting better than some examples I saw on the wiki. --Leziad (talk) 17:49, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Again, ran out of steam, unfortunately. If someone's willing to help I might be able to do it, or if someone was interested in playing it in an actual game, but until then... *shruggery* --Ghostwheel (talk) 18:39, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

	Foxwarrior likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.
	It looks to be a pretty interesting encounter-based caster. Enough of the paths have semi-utility spells in them that you'll be able to get what is at High-balance a fair share of exclusive out-of-combat options. I'm not sure I understand why the Spells Readied thing is that level-dependent though.

Path Comments

This looks like an interesting setup, with lots of fun builds floating around in it. Some of these paths look overloaded compared to the others though. Flame and Cold have piles and piles of options at low levels while most of the other ones that look complete have only 2 or 3 per level. I get wanting some variability, but it seems like too much compared to the others. Is that intentional, is some pruning planned later on, or were you planning on beefing up the other paths?

And this might sound completely bizarre, but I'm going to suggest that Fireball either be limited to medium range or else boosted to 4 or 5. Long range is pretty nuts (640 feet at 6th level, couple of football fields), and being able to fire that every other round as early as 6th level is probably not a High balance thing.

And in case you forgot it, Call Lightning Storm might be a good fit in Lightning. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 21:23, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I'll definitely add that one. As can be seen the list is currently incomplete; I've gone through the PHB (though I may have missed a few things like the aforementioned spell), Frostburn, and Sandstorm, apart from a few spells and powers here-and-there, which is why those two have the majority of spells in them. That said, I plan on going through most of the other books for more spells for all the different paths to fill them up with other level-appropriate spells, but that will take too much time to finish tonight as I have to wake up in 7 hours for work.

As far as Fireball goes, I had an idea of making Close range out to 30', Medium range to 60', and Long range out to 100'. Does that sound decent? All the spells here are meant to be used in-combat, leaving the out of combat stuff to Rituals and the like. --Ghostwheel (talk) 21:30, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

If you wanted distances that short, I'd probably do 30 / 60 / 120 ( ranged SA or point blank range / charge range / run range). You may have to go through and spot fix other ranges though. Lightning bolt has a 120' range, for example, which is fine with my proposed numbers but is just an example of something that could get weird in other setups. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 21:35, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

How would it get weird in that kind of setup? And do you think that it would be a massive nerf to them, or rather be something that should be done to keep them in the thick of things rather than a mile away blasting at things randomly? --Ghostwheel (talk) 21:36, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

I just assumed that if you had a 100' range cap that you wouldn't want the odd spell with a defined range blasting people past that point. If you don't care about that though, then it's not a big deal. And the range thing is a pretty big nerf, but it's probably countered by the recharge / reselect mechanic and better fits the balance desire. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 21:42, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Changes made. Any other comments/suggestions? You mentioned that a lot of fun builds could be found in the class--what do you mean? A few other people I talked to said it looked boring.

BTW, I plan on adding a lot of abilities to the various paths--for example, a high level Cold path ability might be automatically Slowing enemies when dealing Cold damage to them, etc. --Ghostwheel (talk) 21:46, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Well, there's a decent healer/support guy in here (life + improvement + succor) and a decent blow stuff up guy (lots of options), and you can do some stuff in the middle. Depending on how creation and illusion turn out there could be a decent control guy as well, but I don't expect it to be as supported as those other two. But that's already a bunch of viable builds that I would probably enjoy in a M/H game.

I think it's interesting mechanically as a lower balance alternative to the wizard / cleric / whatever. It has some rather restrictive options and a delayed progression, but these things are there for the balance level. The ability to swap out prepared abilities is nice though, and does a bit to keep it from growing stale or preparing wrong in the middle of an adventure. Between that and the recharge it looks like it would fit nicely in a ToB party. It lacks plot utility (outside of travel, the new and mostly empty creation, and maybe mental), but that's not uncommon or problematic in the balance range. So it's mostly combat combat and more combat with rather restricted themes and a lot less than people are used to from spellcasters (even people who play unoptimized and lower balance spellcasters), and I could see where people would call that boring. But you're working on additional bonuses for the paths that add a bit of uniqueness to it and leaning on rituals for your out of combat stuff, so I don't think that's going to hold up in game. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 23:30, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

Strain-based spellcasting

How does this class interact with Surgo's strain-based spellcasting system? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chuckg (talk • contribs) at

It doesn't, it shouldn't, and the strain-based casting goes against everything this class's design is supposed to represent. --Ghostwheel (talk) 17:37, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

Comments

I like the idea of a spellcaster that specializes in only a select few types of spells/powers. I also view it as inappropriate and unjust to rate a class that is still missing parts. So instead I will list a few suggestions of spells to fill the missing sections. Then rate when complete. You could probable condense some of the initial language for paths – no issue with balance, but there is some fat.

Essentially this class has a select-able spell list, thus most comments are to fill missing lists, or change existing ones:

1. Barrier: Surprised Energy Wall, Intellect Fortress, and all the protect spells are missing. But otherwise viable.
2. Allies getting path abilities of equal level is Super Powerful. Even at one half the level grants a lot of power.
3. Fire: Sunburst would be a good addition. But otherwise solid.
4. Burrow speed does not make sense with flame path, but would with a transmutation power.
5. Force: Why not just give Telekinetic Force and Telekinetic Thrust as normal abilities instead of having them as qualities?
6. A gravity special quality would be cool, possibly on the force pathway.
7. Frost: Polar ray too high a spell be a 1st level ability. Why is freezing sphere before ice storm?
8. Hex and suffering should be merged into one pathway (keep only the best of both).
9. A short explanation of the pathway theme would be good, it is not necessary with fire or cold – but would be good for Hex, Barrier, and Improvement.
10. Hex qualities are very powerful, 6/7 are once per encounter. This does not balance well with other pathways, which usually have at least one resistance or defensive ability.
11. Your illusion pathway is awesome, direct and to the point. More pathways should be like it.
12. ...Improvements I am conflicted on. If you gave them a healing ability and some more area defensive capabilities, it could be good. But currently, it is only half done. It could be improved or, since it is only slightly different than barrier, it could be merged.
13. Then there is life, which is suppose to specialize in healing. But with only three possible pathways to select, this is weak compared to other pathways. It really should be merged with either Improvement or another pathway.
14. I like the lightning pathway.
15. Mental: This pathway should be stand-alone. Suggestion and charm would be good special qualities. And is lacking in abilities. You just need to fill it.
16. Plant: you could merge this with insect spells like Insect Plague. There are a couple other area effect spells that would be good with this which can be found on the Zone of Mundane page.
17. Suffering is missing a lot. See above for why this should be merged with Hex.
18. Transformation: Surprised metamorphosis or change shape is not listed here. Additionally a limited wildshape would be good as a special quality; or rage.

Lastly, I am disappointed that there is not a transmutation/shape or a weather pathway. (Sure the lightning, fire, and frost have one elemental weather spell, but there are no weather specific pathways.) Transmutation are the most powerful and adept abilities to control the battle field. They should have some capabilities to change their environment.--Franken Kesey 17:32, 27 March 2019 (MDT)