Talk:Tome of Prowess (3.5e Sourcebook)/Acrobatics

What the...

How is it easier to cross a narrow surface while running?!? I'm sorry, but this new version of the skill is utterly stupid. --Luigifan18 (talk) 01:54, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Your opinion is wrong. Some questions to elucidate things: Can you balance on a moving bicycle? How about a motionless one? Which can you balance on for longer? The answers likely match the new version of the skill (unless you're really backwards talented).

In the old version, it was easier to stand motionless on a tightrope than it was to walk across it. Which is pretty much the opposite of how it actually works. So flipping this better matches actual uses of balance and also stops it from being exactly the opposite progression from all of the expansion abilities. And I pulled out the "clinging to a cliff face thing, which isn't represented here at all anymore because that one is actually better modeled by moving slowly. That said, it maybe needs an initial half speed thing and maybe a death spiral thing where repeated uses get harder as your balance starts to go. It's a refresh pass, and it's not finished yet. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 02:22, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Eh, your analogy isn't quite on the mark. Moving bicycles stay upright because of gyroscopic forces. Those are not a factor in a running human. It may or may not be a valid point that walking on a tightrope is easier than standing on one (that's certainly not true of a balance beam, but maybe a narrower item works differently). But running on a tightrope is absolutely not going to be easier than walking. --DanielDraco (talk) 02:46, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

No, and I knew that when I wrote it. I was trying to capture the idea that inertia is a thing you can use to get across a narrow surface before you need to worry about balance so much (in the bike case, before the stabilizing effects come up), but in retrospect that's not really what the mechanics are supporting here. Because while it is easier to start running across something and let that carry you across, it doesn't work on the second round. So the current focus on the inertia over the balance isn't going to work methinks. I'll keep tinkering with it, possibly reverting it to the original, applying to all of the expansion abilities, and adding a starting momentum thing in place of the weird minor failure state. I'm willing to accept a bit of weirdness in exchange for a standardized mechanic for the ability and all of its descendents, but not this one it seems. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 04:13, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Newton vs. Gygax, fight! --DanielDraco (talk) 04:33, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Alternate Ability Format

As part of my recent editing, I have realized that tracking all of this stuff on the design side is really annoying once the mechanics start to fall into line. So I'm toying with an alternate format for the abilities. It's spoilered below, because big.

Alternate ability format test

Cross Difficult Surface (Minimum Ranks 0) Slippery or obstructed surfaces don’t lend themselves to heroic charges, since heroic slipping isn’t awesome. You must succeed at an acrobatics check to maintain your balance while moving over an obstructed or slippery surface. The DC for this check is determined by the surface and modified by conditions, as indicated in the table above. The action you must spend to remain balanced on the surface is dependent on your check result, and you must spend it as soon as you enter the area. If you fail to use the indicated action during your round, you immediately fall in the difficult space you occupy or the next enter. You can use this ability to move over a damaging, like acid or lava, but you’re not entirely protected from it. You take only minimum damage from the obstacle, as if you suffered exposure and not immersion. This may prompt saves as well, depending on the obstacle. As long as you retain your balance, you only suffer these effects once per round, however, regardless of how many times you enter or leave the damaging area. Any damage from this exposure prompts new acrobatics checks as normal. If you take damage exceeding your acrobatics ranks while flat-footed on a difficult surface you must immediately make a new check against the surface’s DC. The new check result replaces your minimum action requirement if it would be more expensive. If you can not pay the new action cost, or if you do not exceed the surface DC, the interruption has caused you to miss a step and you fall immediately from the space you took the damage. If you are not flat-footed on the surface, you do not need to make this check when suffering damage. If you fail to balance on a surface, or slip as a result of damage, you may attempt a reflex save to grab the surface if you would otherwise fall past it. This save has a DC of 15 + surface conditions. If you succeed on this save you have grabbed on, and may make an Acrobatics check against the surface DC to determine the balance action cost for the round. You may pull yourself up by spending that action and one additional move action. Special: Getting a walking or running start can sometimes help you get over a short difficult surface when skill is somewhat lacking. When you move before attempting to cross a narrow surface is, you gain a "momentum" bonus that you can cover on the narrow surface without maintaining a proper balance. This distance is equal to one quarter of the distance from your starting position to the start of the surface. You do not need to pay the balance action cost until you have expended this movement. If you can clear the surface with this movement, you must still pay the balance cost or fall prone on the other side of the surface. Additionally, you suffer a -5 penalty to the check if you take a run action before reaching the narrow surface. Base DC: Surface DC, plus conditions Check Result: DC+10 and above: You may maintain your balance as a free-action. If you are flat-footed, you must spend a swift action to change direction during your turn. DC+5 to DC+9: You must spend a swift action to retain your balance on the surface. If you do not have a swift action to spend after you begin moving on the surface, you fall off after your momentum distance (if any). If you are flat-footed, you must spend a move action to change direction during your turn. DC+0 to DC+4: You must spend a move action to retain your balance on the surface. If you do not have a move action to spend after you begin moving on the surface, you fall off after your momentum distance (if any). If you are flat-footed, you must spend a standard action to change direction during your turn. DC-1 to DC-5: You must spend a full-round action to balance on the surface. If you do not have a full-round action to spend after you begin moving on the surface, you fall after your momentum distance (if any). If you rolled this result in response to suffering damage, you immediately fall. DC-6 and below: You fail to balance on the surface and fall, either from the first space that you enter or the space of the surface that you currently occupy, into whatever waits for you underneath. You land prone if applicable. Ability Ranks Rank 0: You can try to keep your balance across normal, solid surfaces with adverse conditions of any DC, but not a narrow or broken surface. Additionally, you are flat-footed on any slippery surface, though not an obstructed one. Rank 1: You can try to keep your balance across normal, solid surfaces with adverse conditions of any DC or difficult, narrow, or broken surfaces with a DC of 15 or less. You are considered flat-footed while on a narrow, broken, or slippery surface. Rank 4: You can try to keep your balance across any normal, solid surfaces with adverse conditions of any DC or difficult, narrow, or broken surfaces with a DC of 25 or less. You are considered flat-footed while on a narrow or broken surface with a DC greater than 15. Rank 6: You can try to keep your balance across any normal, solid surfaces with adverse conditions of any DC or difficult, narrow, or broken surfaces with a DC of 30 or less. You are considered flat-footed while on a narrow or broken surface with a DC greater than 20. Rank 8: You can try to keep your balance across any normal, broken, or narrow solid surfaces with adverse conditions of any DC. You can also try to keep your balance on liquid surfaces. You are considered flat-footed while on a narrow or broken surface with a DC greater than 30 or any liquid surface. Rank 10: You can try to keep your balance across any normal, broken, or narrow solid surfaces with adverse conditions of any DC. You can also try to keep your balance on liquid or cloud-like surfaces. You are considered flat-footed while on any cloud-like surface. Rank 12: You can try to keep your balance across any normal, broken, or narrow solid surfaces with adverse conditions of any DC. You can also try to keep your balance on liquid and cloud-like surfaces, as well as empty air itself. You are considered flat-footed while an otherwise empty air surface. Rank 14: You can try to keep your balance across any normal, broken, or narrow solid surfaces with adverse conditions of any DC. You can also try to keep your balance on liquid and cloud-like surfaces, as well as empty air itself. You are not considered flat-footed on any surface.

I think it's a lot easier to see the progressions and do lookups in this format. And I think I prefer the flow here. It's probably slightly easier to miss a new thing when levelling up a character though. Anyway, this is largely a preference thing, so I'm shopping opinions. Do you have a preference? Group ability upgrades by ability, or by ranks when they come online?

[Edit] Parts of that are pretty dry, and I'd likely fluff/chewy it up a bit. Particularly the upgrade section. This is mostly for illustrative purposes at this point. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 07:51, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

I like this format over the prior format. It'd look even cooler though, if you made the rank upgrades were in a table. like as follows:

Rank	Benefit
0	You can try to keep your balance across normal, solid surfaces with adverse conditions of any DC or difficult, narrow, or broken surfaces with a DC of 15 or less. You are considered flat-footed while on a narrow, broken, or slippery surface.
1	You can try to keep your balance across normal, solid surfaces with adverse conditions of any DC or difficult, narrow, or broken surfaces with a DC of 15 or less. You are considered flat-footed while on a narrow, broken, or slippery surface.
4	test
6	more test

It'd be nice if the numbers were center, but vertical alignment is tough. --Havvy (talk) 22:32, 17 December 2012 (UTC)

Stripes are nice and all, but they aren't as good looking when the rows are all sorts of random lengths, which they are likely to be with many of the other skill abilities. --Foxwarrior (talk) 00:10, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

The vertical alignment is an artifact of the d20 class, and I don't know how to work around it effectively (without resorting to writing a new class). The size consistency can be handled with some style lines and a width call, as my changes above show. Dunno how I feel about tabling it up in general though. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 05:38, 18 December 2012 (UTC)