Talk:Undead Paragon, Boneclaw Hybrid (3.5e Racial Paragon Class)

I know, the Boneclaw did not have Rend, but I always though they should have had it. Any comments? The Dire Reverend 04:23, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I have one - this isn't rogue level. It's mid-fighter, and even then, just barely. Mostly due to a lack of class features which aren't numbers, as well as not doing anything interesting. I would also add that this isn't a PrC - it's a racial paragon class that happens to apply to undead creatures in general. - MisterSinister 00:27, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Fighter? Ehhhh, I dunno. As Rogue level it's low rogue for sure. Picking up an elemental immunity and reach is rather nice, neither being numerical. More importantly Unholy Toughness is always a very nice thing to pick up and difficult to obtain usually. I could see an arguement for Fighter, but my gut says (low) Rogue. -- Eiji-kun 00:32, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Compare this to three levels of Warblade. It's not even close. It's fighter-level, and the fact that it gives you a bunch of combat options that are kinda decent does nothing to ameliorate the fact that it's boring, not particularly effective and that it could be summarized into a template or a scaling feat. - MisterSinister 00:54, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Well that, that's three levels of WARBLADE, which is on the better side of rogue. This is probably more 3 levels if normal TWFing rogue, which is closer to low-rogue, or a well optimized fighter that pops up to low rogue. I agree that this could be a template, but then again I'm a fan of classes which effectively grant templates (well, the ones that are worth it).

One thing I can say is that it probably needs to scale better. I could take this at level 1-3, but does it still hold up if I take it 17-20? These short classes really should be able to be taken at any time, and having something that works at any level would do well help with the balance.

(EDIT: To be fair, unholy toughness scales.) -- Eiji-kun 03:19, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

It's too short and too "who knows where you'll take these levels" to be able to gauge in a straightforward way (no ToB comparisons, no SGTs), but I'm leaning towards MS's call with this one. This main draw of this class is the "probably not enhanceable" natural weapons (which runs into monk style problems, though the advancement is much faster here). Without enhancement they have an expiration date of around level 8 (it would be sooner if not for the fast advancement), which means the "reach with these weapons" feature has a similar expiration. Cold immunity is potentially nice, Cha instead of Con for HP is pretty meh unless you built for it, the bonus rend damage doesn't make up for not being actually magic enhanceable weapons, and the the bonus feat I could care less about (though it probably needs some sort of limitation, if only for fluff reasons). None of those things add up to anything that really matters at higher levels, and thus not a rogue level class IMO.

So if I were making suggestions, I'd update the boneclaw to act as a magic weapon, from level 1 in the class, with an enhancement bonus equal to some some portion of your character level (not class level, there aren't enough of them and it could be taken basically whenever). And then let people enhance it further as if that bonus were only +1 (to avoid "enhance at level X" cost shenanigans), but not add more than +5 in properties to it ever (to avoid weird excesses of +10 total bonus shenanigans). If it got free enhancement increases and could be cheaply boosted, I could see this as a viable rogue level class (and an actual undead rogue dip) because the primary draw doesn't stop being useful. In it's current form it leaves a bit to be desired though, and falls short of its mark IMO. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 06:12, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Good point on the unenhancability. I suppose that's enough to drop it back to fighter IMO then. -- Eiji-kun 06:50, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

I like your idea about the Boneclaw becoming magic weapons that scale with character level, however I cannot think of what level the enhancements should increase at. I also like the ability to give it magic weapon properties. Should the character have to enchant each claw attack separately or should it apply to both at the same time? The Dire Reverend 09:24, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

If you want them to be scaling magic weapons, make it scale based on character level - that's the most sensible way to avoid anything weird happening. As for enchanting - their claws shouldn't cost them double the normal going rate that their THFing cleric friends aren't paying. - MisterSinister 09:46, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

I think he was asking how one scales it by level. To that, follow the scaling as greater magic weapon. -- Eiji-kun 09:51, 20 October 2011 (UTC)