Talk:Transmute Magic (5e Spell)

Ratings

Blocked Rating	Vaegrim dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.
	This rating refers to a substantially different version of the article, or concerns mentioned in it have already been addressed.This is mostly rehashing Circle of Power. You might be able to make a 6th level modular spell to do something like this, but even then it'll need some work.

Blocked Rating	Ghostwheel opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	This rating refers to a substantially different version of the article, or concerns mentioned in it have already been addressed.What is ability damage or drain? What's with the non-standard range and duration? Does this affect a caster within its area, or just spells cast into it? What if a spell is partially in or out? This is so over-complicated that it does not fit the 5e paradigm.

Circle of power is only positive bluff. This is both a bluff and debluff. Additionally, circle does not get specific on how it benefits.

Ability damage is temporary damage to an ability score. Ability drain is permanent. Recent edit specified that it does affect caster after casting and gave a more normal duration.--Franken Kesey 17:50, 21 April 2019 (MDT)

Ability damage and drain are not a thing anywhere in 5e. --Ghostwheel (talk) 17:53, 21 April 2019 (MDT)

I see. Will remove.--Franken Kesey 18:37, 21 April 2019 (MDT)

Circle of Power is very specific on how it benefits your allies. Just so we're clear. It is not a SRD spell, so it's not described in full here. I am sure you can open up your Player's Handbook and find it (PHB 221). If you do not have a Player's Handbook, you can probably find it at your Local Gaming Store, on an internet store, or you can find it purchasable on one of WotC's digital partners. --TK-Squared (talk) 06:26, 23 April 2019 (MDT)

Range

If this has a 30' range, why does it overcomplicate itself with having such a weird effect? Just make it affect everywhere. Having to mark each of the 5' squares is a ton of needless work. Furthermore, 5e does not have area, range, etc based on caster level. --Ghostwheel (talk) 17:55, 21 April 2019 (MDT)

Affecting everywhere seams super powerful. But if you are suggesting changing how magic works in an area does not need to be qualified, then can remove. So just changing the range to medium would suffice?--Franken Kesey 18:37, 21 April 2019 (MDT)

...Have you ever tried to Have someone place 16 5' squares on a battlemat? Plus, 5e doesn't have per caster level things. Just make it a 30' dome and be done with it. --Ghostwheel (talk) 04:39, 22 April 2019 (MDT)

Anti-magic field

Why does this replicate anti-magic field at a spell slot lower than the actual spell? Why not just cast anti-magic field in that case? --Ghostwheel (talk) 17:57, 21 April 2019 (MDT)

That is the thing, it does not replicate anti-magic. It replicated spell dampening and the reversal spell enhancement. Only with advancement does it act like anti-magic. Removed the anti-magic part. because it is not its focus.--Franken Kesey 18:37, 21 April 2019 (MDT)

Spell lists

Why do druids and warlocks get this? They don't get anything similar, and it doesn't fit their flavor at all. --Ghostwheel (talk) 17:58, 21 April 2019 (MDT)

Druids get a lot of transmutations within their spell selection, thus adding another transmutation makes sense. But can remove from warlock list.--Franken Kesey 18:37, 21 April 2019 (MDT)

Except they don't get any spells dealing with changing actual magic. Equating that to all transmutation spells is just dumb. --Ghostwheel (talk) 04:39, 22 April 2019 (MDT)

TK is Here!

Let's go.

• 1) The range is wrong, as that's the first thing we encounter that's incorrect. We can look at Leonard's Tiny Hut to check out how we do domes, because it's the same principle as this spell. As our range on this spell is a "30' dome" we can see, as per Tiny Hut, this range should be changed to: Range: Self (30-foot radius hemisphere).
• 2) The components are wrong. As we've previously noted, F is not a letter to describe a component for a spell and the material - if there is one - should be defined. The material is usually related to what the spell does - but also generally some kind of meta-joke related to it. Like the well-known Bat Guano for Fireball; Bat Guano can be used to make gunpowder. So, if you want to include a Material Component, just think of some really bad joke component (like True Seeing's requirement of rubbing a salve made out of Mushrooms onto your eyes, so you "see").
• 3) Also on the components still, this doesn't require Verbal or Somatic components for some reason. It really should.
• 4) The first sentence is just wrong, as it mentions area per Caster Level, which is not a thing in 5e. Instead, it should read similar to Tiny Hut: A 30-foot radius immobile dome of magical energy expands from your position and remains stationary for the duration.
• 5) "The Magic Circle spell has no effect on this". This is correct, but I don't know why it's stated. The Friends spell has no effects on this, but you don't mention it. Magic Circle, as far as I can tell, is about capturing creatures inside a Magic Circle, or keeping them out. Why is this even mentioned?
• 6) Dispel Magic already dismisses entire effects of spells. That's what it's for; it dispels magic. Why is this mentioned?
• 7) We've already established that the spell is immobile and does not move as part of our initial declaration for the spell. We don't need to re-iterate that it doesn't move with you.
• 8) Now that we're at the meat of the spell, this just does a whole bunch of stuff, and then also has some riders on what spells it can effect? Ability Drain nor Ability Damage aren't a thing in 5e, and spells don't really do that. I'm having a hard time thinking of a spell that does any kind of damage to any ability score - Feeblemind sets your Intelligence and Charisma to 1, and I know that a Shadow does some amount of reduction on your Strength if they hit. But, it seems that the caveat that this spell doesn't effect things that probably don't exist is irrelevant.
• 9) In the two spells I've looked at, you've mentioned about changing "ranges". This effects melee weapon attacks, so with this spell I can Booming Blade from 25-feet away.

There's probably more things about this, but that's what I've got right now. --TK-Squared (talk) 06:04, 23 April 2019 (MDT)

1. Fixed.
2. Changed to verbal and somatic, like dispel magic.
3. Fixed.
4. Fixed.
5. Removed magic circle. Replaced with counterspell. There is no protect from magic in 5e?
6. Need to mention what works against this spell and what does not.
7. Removed.
8. Removed ability score stuff.
9. Simplified ranges and closed a loophole.

What else?--Franken Kesey 09:09, 23 April 2019 (MDT)

6) Why does this spell get to be the one MIGHTIEST spell that can't be countered? Level 9 spells are counterable, but this one. Oh this one spell, no counter! IT'S TOO STRONG, that must be it. I mean, the literal incarnation of anti-magic summoning spells can be countered, but the potency of magic is so weak in comparison to this spell because... Reasons?

10) I can roll a Wisdom check? Against what? This isn't a Saving Throw, so my Saving Throw DC is not applicable. An Ability Check and a Saving Throw are very different things. This is in the basic rules of 5e.

11) The Bookkeeping Cometh on when I'm allowed to roll my Wisdom Check. This spell doesn't effect creatures because it effects spells and magic effects, but you know... I get to make a Wisdom Check at random intervals using wording that's not in-line with any other spell written for 5e.

12) Incidentally, there are no "skill checks". There are only ability checks.

My general "what else" would be to tell you to look at 5e spells and familiarise yourself with the system, but that's what people keep saying to you and you keep ignoring them. --TK-Squared (talk) 09:25, 23 April 2019 (MDT)

6) Could not find an area protection spell in 5e. Wanted there to be a spell that worked against it and one that it did not. Abjuration spells are limited in 5e. If you have a better abjuration spell, mention it below. Additionally, this is not the mightiest spell out there it only increases/decreases damage by two dice.

10) Most spellcasters would want to resist this effect. Since 5e has no Will save, Wisdom is a good check.

11) Do not want it to be a reroll every round. But want a second chance at some point. What wording would be better?

12) Removed the mention of skill checks in last edit.

I learn better from creating articles. It was the same with 3.5 homebrew. Started with a class then did spells, etc. The 5e has been improving.--Franken Kesey 09:50, 23 April 2019 (MDT)

"The 5e has been improving" - No. It hasn't.

6) What on earth do you mean that Abjuration spells are limited? There are like 462 spells in 5e right now, and of those there are 52. If we divided all spells equally between the schools, that would be only 5 spells less than average. I don't know how you're going to describe Divination spells with their poor 32 spells. While technically, the spells are finite, that is completely on par with literally everything. I understand that you didn't quite grasp the sarcasm of my point, but this spell is the Spelliest Spell in the whole Spellverse because it's literally the only spell that can't be countered. For some unknown reason. I don't even know why you have to mention an Abjuration spell. What on earth is the point? Are you just stuck on this idea that's not working out, but you're being REALLY stubborn about it?

10) Most spellcasters would. But most spellcasters aren't spells, so it doesn't matter what they do. This effect effects spells, not people casting spells. You'd have to reword it even more than it probably needs rewording in the first place. Also, as I keep noting, an Ability check ("Wisdom check") is still not a saving throw. People keep telling you to learn how the system works because you clearly do not know how the system works.

11) If you don't want it to be re-rolled each round, then remove it because it still doesn't have any effect on anyone in it because it only effects spells and magical effects.

Here is the article on Ability checks and here is the article on Saving Throws. They are different things. --TK-Squared (talk) 10:01, 23 April 2019 (MDT)

6) Spells that defend against magic in 5e follow: Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Silence, Private Sanctum, Forbiddance, Antimagic Field, and Wish. And yet, Private Sanctum, Silence, and Forbiddance have limited application. This is a short list. Might change to the Private Sanctum, because there are no magic protection spells in 5e.

10) Could remove the Wisdom save altogether. But it would increase the power considerably. Currently it affects the spell's origin (in other words spellcaster), thus each spellcaster that casts spells in area gets a save. Will clarify wording to this.

11) It would be overpowered to never give them a reroll.--Franken Kesey 10:21, 23 April 2019 (MDT)

6) I really do not understand what your fixation on Abjuration and "magic protection spells" are in relation to what you're saying in the spell; so it is counterable? What does Private Sanctum have to do with this at all? Can you at least tell me just what you're trying to do here?

10) No-where in the spell does it say that effects the spell's origin, it just says that it effects anyone inside the area and then it goes on to list what it does spells in the area. Either you have it effect any spells that are cast into the area, or you have the spell effect any creature in the area, and it applies properties to their spells as they're cast no matter where they're casting. Otherwise, this is just a mess.

11) As it is, it's not overpowered to never give them a re-roll because it doesn't effect spellcasters. Spells that allow people to resist their effects don't do it like the strange way that you've said it. We can look at other spells and see how it's done; firstly, when you enter the spell for the time on a turn, you must make the saving throw. Then, we can take some hostile effect spells (like Hold Person) and say that we definitely want someone to be under the effects for one turn, so they get to make their next saving throw at the end of their turn. Also, on a final note, you can simply say "When a creature enters the spell's area for the first time on a turn" instead of "first round these effects take affect, on every entry" - this is because when the spell comes into effect, creatures within its area enter its area.

I just really want to understand point 6) though. That seems to be the main sticking point here. --TK-Squared (talk) 11:54, 23 April 2019 (MDT)

→Reverted indentation to one colon

Will fix 10 and 11 in next edit. Your wording for 11 is much better, thank you. But want to fix 6 before saving. Was looking for something like protect from evil but for spells.--Franken Kesey 12:07, 23 April 2019 (MDT)

Since protect from good/evil had similar properties, just changed it to that. Too bad there is not an alignment neutral protect magic spell. But it will do for now.--Franken Kesey 12:14, 23 April 2019 (MDT)

See, you linked to Protection from Evil and Good, but it does not have anything to do with alignment - despite the name. It protects you from a specific type of creature. This leads us into the ultimate question yet again because we're spinning the wheel back to...

6) What effect would Protection from Evil and Good have on this spell? Protection from Evil and Good don't seem to do anything to the effects of this spell, so what you said is technically true? You also mention that Dispel Magic dispels the magic. This is just stating the obvious; the spell that dispels spells dispels this spell? This doesn't need to be said on the spell. Why would it need to be said? Why are you trying so hard to find something that can't do something against this spell? What does it bring to the spell? What possible good does this do?!

I am so bamboozled by your tenacity about this. --TK-Squared (talk) 12:23, 23 April 2019 (MDT)

6) Protect from good and evil is not the best option, but it does work. It states that "The target also can’t be charmed, frightened, or possessed by them." Since charms and fear-based spells are spells and this spell affects spells mention of how it affects protect from evil/good is important. Thus the transmute magic mentions that it negates any benefits of protect from evil/good.

If mentioning dispel magic, etc is redundant can remove.--Franken Kesey 12:32, 23 April 2019 (MDT)

Simplified to "all other abjurations".--Franken Kesey 12:40, 23 April 2019 (MDT)