View source for User talk:Spazalicious Chaos/Wounds and Armor Reconsidered (3.5e Variant Rule)

Making mundane armor more complicated does not help at the higher balance points of the game where you have save or dies and spellcasters who don't actually make an attack roll.  It is also adding extra factors to consider for every attack roll, which adds computational stress upon all players, ultimately leading to less enjoyment unless you enjoy doing mathematics for the sake of it.  --[[User:Havvy|Havvy]] 06:39, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

:It is not finished yet, but when it is the above issue WILL be addressed, hopefully to your satisfaction.--Change=Chaos. Period. [[User:Spazalicious Chaos| SC]] 19:55, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

:: So basically this is the [[Publication:Unearthed Arcana/Vitality_and_Wound_Points|VP/WP system]] with effect changes of if you take WP damage? --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 20:38, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
::: Yes, with the addition of a critical hit system, a rewrite to how much damage a Subdual attack can do, and a hit location system thrown in for flavor as well as some new armor rules to protect against those serious effects.--Change=Chaos. Period. [[User:Spazalicious Chaos| SC]] 21:42, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

::::I'm not seeing how this system actually makes the game any better, with "better" being "more fluid and immersive", and it certainly omits a lot of things that are really frustrating me just by reading it, along with some other frustrating things that are included. So, I guess I'll just point at stuff as it comes along:
::::'''Hit Points:''' Basically, this is just reflavoring. The only actual mechanical change is "no negative HP" and that's just because it references the next part. All that flavor stuff should go up top in the flavor section. Telling the reader that HP now have ''"...a specific effect other than the vague term "damage"."'' and then never mentioning any mechanical change was just disappointing, as that sentence basically becomes a lie, since the "specific effect", which I suppose is providing a buffer until you die, is still the same.
::::'''Wound Points:''' These are basically reflavored negative HP, but with the complete removal of the dying and unconsciousness part, which messes up feats like [[SRD:Diehard]], as well as what happens to creatures without Constitution (primarily incorporeals and undead). In general, this entire variant rule ignores non-humanoids, and that's a big problem. Also, with no duration on that [[SRD:Fatigued|fatigue]], you stay fatigued until you rest I guess. Is that intended? How do you know that wounds are only targeted in combat 5% of the time? Why 1d3 pieces? If I fight a bloody battle with 30 orcs, surviving down to my last Wound Point as they cudgel me with clubs, get them to surrender, but then take a rock to the back of the head while walking away and die, why do I potentially fall into 3 pieces? Another big problem with this rule is that it assumes situations and outcomes. If I face punch a tiny skeleton with my Undead Bane Gauntlet of Mighty Furious Sweetness, why does the skeleton turn into a splatter? ARGH! How do you discern the physical difference of a Hit Point and a Wound Point on an Elemental that's wholly composed of one substance?
::::'''Armor Class:''' Commoners die in fireballs because of fire, not because of shock (the non-electricity kind). A death due to emotional stress in DnD would be a Will save, not a blast of fire over your entire body. High level characters can shrug off more damage because the game system allows for them to be able to shrug off more damage at high levels to compensate for the greater damage things deal so that things that can kill off hordes of commoners can exist at the same time and still have an awesome battle with the PCs. In immersed game terms, it's because the PCs are trained, rugged, supernaturally empowered or extraordinarily tough. They aren't regular people and they don't function remotely like regular people (especially real-world people). As for attacks that land between a characters touch AC and his current AC, yeah, those would be glancing blows of sorts, enough to contact but not deal damage. It's a "miss", but not in the sense that the attacker swung and only connected with air.
::::I'm gonna stop reading through at this point. This is getting long. In the end, it's really up to the DM to give combat some detailed immersion (or verisimilitude, if you like that word instead). If players are thinking about rules and looking at charts, they're taken out of the experience, and that's a bad thing if your goal is to do the opposite. If I were looking for a way to get players to feel more involved in their combat (and I'm not), I'd look elsewhere. One final note: It's a big no-no to say anything adds "realism" to DnD, a game where a wizard shoots rainbows at dragons. Don't get "realism" confused with verisimilitude. --[[User:Ganteka Future|Ganteka Future]] 23:47, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

:::::Realism is a very sepcific goal in a game, just as "balanced" and "dark" are very specific goals, thus it was never my inention to for this too be a "be-all end-all" system, but a realistic system. That out of the way, let me address your concerns:
:::::*'''Hit Points:''' Yes, this is primarily a reflavoring, and really have no excuse for any feelings of deception, and after writing this will delete that part of the preamble. I'm sorry.
:::::*'''Wound Points:''' You points on creatures with no constitution has already been into consideration, but I seem to have left that part out. Again I apologize. Die Hard would allow you to ignore the effects of the fatigue penalty from wound damage; yes, the fatigue lasts until you can rest for one hour, as stated in regular fatigue rules; the rock scenario would only aplly if the thrown rock dealt your Constitution+1 in damage (as per the rule if you were to read it again), and thus the orc threw the rock at near bullet speed or a massive rock; and the scenario with the skeletion and the awesome magic guanlet would simply imply that you over killed it with magic. As for the elemental, hit points would be scratching the surface of the being, while wound damage would imply the attack hit whatever core energy is keeping the solid element together and thinking, the heart so to speak.
:::::*'''Armor Class:''' I believe otherwise with the commoners. If you take a look at explosions, fires, or really any kind of injury, nearly everyone who dies dies on the operating table, not in the field. Thus, when a fireball hits a village, commoners and heros alike get the same thing: a flash, a bang, and the smell of burn hair and skin (your own). The difference between low level characters and high level characters is while the low enders go into shock, the high level guys do what trained professionals in the real world do: think to themselves "gee, that's not good" and jump into the fray.
::::: The promised changes will be implemented in 1.35 hours. Again, thank you for bring your concerns to me.--Change=Chaos. Period. [[User:Spazalicious Chaos| SC]] 02:47, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

:::::: If you want a game with realism, use a system that caters for a more simulationist playstyle. D&D? Gamist to the extreme. The one place where the designers tried to go for simulationism is the grappling rules, and... well, you can see what a disaster that is.
:::::: That said, I highly recommend checking out the [http://pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showbook&bookid=3759 Silhouette RPG] (perhaps with the [http://pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showbook&bookid=3983 Tribes 8] magic system if you want magic in your game) for a far more "realistic" game rather than trying to make D&D bend over backwards for a playstyle it was never meant for and does badly. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 04:38, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
:::::::I could do that, but I don't want to. These are changes that have been successfully tested in my own games, and placed on this site in case someone who is as inventive as the people on this site wants something similar. For you, Ghost, I do not reccoment any of this material, as I'd think you would hate what it does to a game. Hell, this variant does this like let casters wear plate over everyting but their arms and hands, and every orc your 20th level charcter faces has a 5% chance of ending you. But that won't stop me from posting up here for anyone to enjoy.
::::::: In short: no one has to love it, but someone might, thus here it is.--Change=Chaos. Period. [[User:Spazalicious Chaos| SC]] 04:47, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
:::::::: Then what is the point of levels?  You will notice that from those who design with the function of having levels mean power, your attacks and your defenses both go up.  In the core rules, the best example of this is saving throws.  You just aren't going to stand up to higher level threats at lower levels because you'll have so many saves that you fail until you level up.  By changing the nature of the game for warriors, you eventually make it so that you survive all sorts of exotic and difficult things that are realistically more dangerous than getting stabbed really hard via the nature of the saving throw system, but an orc that attacks you always has a sizable chance of killing you?  Though I guess at some point you'll become immune to critical hits from orcs due to armor class.

:::::::: For the armor section, how does magic armor work? --[[User:Havvy|Havvy]] 05:57, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
::::::::: For most of your point, I have nothing to say to that. You have stated why this would not work for most play styles and I agree with you. Let that be a lesson to everyone who looked this variant over. Better yet, let me say it bold: '''this variant is intended for realistic play, and should NOT be considered for any other play style.'''
:::::::::As for your question on magic armor, it remains much the same. To makes things easier assume that magic armor is produced in full suits, but if it would make for sense for only a peice of it to be found at a time, so be it. Special effects not related to armor bonus provide only a fraction of their protection equal to the number of the sections it is found in. For example, while a full suit of leather of greater fire resistance and heavy fortification would provide the full 30 fire resistance and 100% immunity to criticals, if you had only the gloves and boot they would provide only 10 fire resistance and 33% resistance to criticals. Again, on a critical confirmation roll the armor covering the section targets provide only it's own benefits but at full power. The the formentioned partial leather, if the hands were targeted the critical would be negated (critical immunity at 100%) would have 30 fire resistance, making these gloves a wizards best friends.--Change=Chaos. Period. [[User:Spazalicious Chaos| SC]] 18:26, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

::::::::::Redacting Statement- my above comment on Die Hard is '''false''', repeat, '''FALSE.''' Die Hard changes in no way under this variant, as it allows you fight dispite having no hit points left, as opposed to falling unconsious when out of hit points. I'm sorry, that was a complete brain fart.--Change=Chaos. Period. [[User:Spazalicious Chaos| SC]] 20:54, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

== Rating ==

{{Rating|rater=Ghostwheel
|rating=dislike
|reason=This variant makes a poor attempt to bring simulationism to a system that was never meant to accommodate such a mode of play, and doesn't even do it in a way that flows well in the context of an actual game, breaking immersion rather than adding to it.}}

{{Rating |rater=MisterSinister |rating=dislike |reason=This variant basically attempts to apply GURPS rules to DnD (I can see whole-cloth lifts from it) - and fails in a spectacular fashion. While the warmed-over VP/WP stuff we all knew and (maybe) loved from Star Wars d20 makes a comeback, this variant makes Constitution damage even more mighty than it used to be, and makes fighting guys even weaker. In all, I simply don't see why this is even ''necessary'', much less good.}}

{{Rating |rater=Aarnott |rating=dislike |reason=This variant introduces tons of unneeded complexity into an intentionally abstract system. I'm okay with simulations, if they are executed well. This one isn't. The reflavoring of hit points actually makes less sense than the abstract hit point system. People are knocked unconscious from trauma most of the time, not shock. Even if we care about being as "real" as possible, this rule starts off on an extremely bad foot.

Similarly, there are arbitrary rules that are just infested with stupid. If you die to a particularly nasty attack "your body will end up in 1d3 pieces". Who cares? Should we start rolling 1d4 for the number of minutes we need to urinate or 1d12 for how many pieces of corn get stuck in your teeth?

"That is why commoners are killed by fireballs when high level characters aren't: they die of shock!" --> Sometimes I wish people could die of being stupid.

"Any damage done to Constitution deals and equal amount of damage to Wound Points" --> Well that makes killing pixies a heck of a lot easier. "Likewise, any reduction of Constitution also reduces maximum Wound Points." --> So Constitution drain has a lesser effect than damage. Interesting.

Armor and Hit Location -> is a separate variant, unbalanced for reasons I won'y even bother getting into, but actually has some potential for a targeted attack system (and by potential, I mean taking the one or two good ideas and overhauling all the rest).}}

== Rewrite review ==

To casual skimmers of the wiki, please note that rating comments are directed at a former incarnation of this variant rule. To rates, please update or remove our ratings as you see fit.--Change=Chaos. Period. [[User:Spazalicious Chaos| SC]] 20:18, 18 June 2012 (UTC)