User talk:Spazalicious Chaos/Wounds and Armor Reconsidered (3.5e Variant Rule)

Making mundane armor more complicated does not help at the higher balance points of the game where you have save or dies and spellcasters who don't actually make an attack roll. It is also adding extra factors to consider for every attack roll, which adds computational stress upon all players, ultimately leading to less enjoyment unless you enjoy doing mathematics for the sake of it. --Havvy 06:39, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

It is not finished yet, but when it is the above issue WILL be addressed, hopefully to your satisfaction.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 19:55, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

So basically this is the VP/WP system with effect changes of if you take WP damage? --Ghostwheel 20:38, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes, with the addition of a critical hit system, a rewrite to how much damage a Subdual attack can do, and a hit location system thrown in for flavor as well as some new armor rules to protect against those serious effects.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 21:42, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not seeing how this system actually makes the game any better, with "better" being "more fluid and immersive", and it certainly omits a lot of things that are really frustrating me just by reading it, along with some other frustrating things that are included. So, I guess I'll just point at stuff as it comes along:

Hit Points: Basically, this is just reflavoring. The only actual mechanical change is "no negative HP" and that's just because it references the next part. All that flavor stuff should go up top in the flavor section. Telling the reader that HP now have "...a specific effect other than the vague term "damage"." and then never mentioning any mechanical change was just disappointing, as that sentence basically becomes a lie, since the "specific effect", which I suppose is providing a buffer until you die, is still the same.

Wound Points: These are basically reflavored negative HP, but with the complete removal of the dying and unconsciousness part, which messes up feats like Diehard, as well as what happens to creatures without Constitution (primarily incorporeals and undead). In general, this entire variant rule ignores non-humanoids, and that's a big problem. Also, with no duration on that fatigue, you stay fatigued until you rest I guess. Is that intended? How do you know that wounds are only targeted in combat 5% of the time? Why 1d3 pieces? If I fight a bloody battle with 30 orcs, surviving down to my last Wound Point as they cudgel me with clubs, get them to surrender, but then take a rock to the back of the head while walking away and die, why do I potentially fall into 3 pieces? Another big problem with this rule is that it assumes situations and outcomes. If I face punch a tiny skeleton with my Undead Bane Gauntlet of Mighty Furious Sweetness, why does the skeleton turn into a splatter? ARGH! How do you discern the physical difference of a Hit Point and a Wound Point on an Elemental that's wholly composed of one substance?

Armor Class: Commoners die in fireballs because of fire, not because of shock (the non-electricity kind). A death due to emotional stress in DnD would be a Will save, not a blast of fire over your entire body. High level characters can shrug off more damage because the game system allows for them to be able to shrug off more damage at high levels to compensate for the greater damage things deal so that things that can kill off hordes of commoners can exist at the same time and still have an awesome battle with the PCs. In immersed game terms, it's because the PCs are trained, rugged, supernaturally empowered or extraordinarily tough. They aren't regular people and they don't function remotely like regular people (especially real-world people). As for attacks that land between a character's touch AC and his current AC, yeah, those would be glancing blows of sorts, enough to contact but not deal damage. It's a "miss", but not in the sense that the attacker swung and only connected with air.

I'm gonna stop reading through at this point. This is getting long. In the end, it's really up to the DM to give combat some detailed immersion (or verisimilitude, if you like that word instead). If players are thinking about rules and looking at charts, they're taken out of the experience, and that's a bad thing if your goal is to do the opposite. If I were looking for a way to get players to feel more involved in their combat (and I'm not), I'd look elsewhere. One final note: It's a big no-no to say anything adds "realism" to DnD, a game where a wizard shoots rainbows at dragons. Don't get "realism" confused with verisimilitude. --Ganteka Future 23:47, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Realism is a very specific goal in a game, just as "balanced" and "dark" are very specific goals, thus it was never my intention to for this too be a "be-all end-all" system, but a realistic system. That out of the way, let me address your concerns:

• Hit Points: Yes, this is primarily a reflavoring, and really have no excuse for any feelings of deception, and after writing this will delete that part of the preamble. I'm sorry.
• Wound Points: Your points on creatures with no constitution has already been into consideration, but I seem to have left that part out. Again I apologize. Die Hard would allow you to ignore the effects of the fatigue penalty from wound damage; yes, the fatigue lasts until you can rest for one hour, as stated in regular fatigue rules; the rock scenario would only apply if the thrown rock dealt your Constitution+1 in damage (as per the rule if you were to read it again), and thus the orc threw the rock at near bullet speed or a massive rock; and the scenario with the skeleton and the awesome magic gantlet would simply imply that you overkilled it with magic. As for the elemental, hit points would be scratching the surface of the being, while wound damage would imply the attack hit whatever core energy is keeping the solid element together and thinking, the heart so to speak.
• Armor Class: I believe otherwise with the commoners. If you take a look at explosions, fires, or really any kind of injury, nearly everyone who dies dies on the operating table, not in the field. Thus, when a fireball hits a village, commoners and heroes alike get the same thing: a flash, a bang, and the smell of burnt hair and skin (your own). The difference between low level characters and high level characters is while the low enders go into shock, the high level guys do what trained professionals in the real world do: think to themselves "gee, that's not good" and jump into the fray.

The promised changes will be implemented in 1.35 hours. Again, thank you for bring your concerns to me.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 02:47, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

If you want a game with realism, use a system that caters for a more simulationist playstyle. D&D? Gamist to the extreme. The one place where the designers tried to go for simulationism is the grappling rules, and... well, you can see what a disaster that is.

That said, I highly recommend checking out the Silhouette RPG (perhaps with the Tribes 8 magic system if you want magic in your game) for a far more "realistic" game rather than trying to make D&D bend over backwards for a playstyle it was never meant for and does badly. --Ghostwheel 04:38, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I could do that, but I don't want to. These are changes that have been successfully tested in my own games, and placed on this site in case someone who is as inventive as the people on this site wants something similar. For you, Ghost, I do not reccomend any of this material, as I'd think you would hate what it does to a game. Hell, this variant does things like let casters wear plate over everything but their arms and hands, and every orc your 20th level character faces has a 5% chance of ending you. But that won't stop me from posting up here for anyone to enjoy.

In short: no one has to love it, but someone might, thus here it is.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 04:47, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Then what is the point of levels? You will notice that from those who design with the function of having levels mean power, your attacks and your defenses both go up. In the core rules, the best example of this is saving throws. You just aren't going to stand up to higher level threats at lower levels because you'll have so many saves that you fail until you level up. By changing the nature of the game for warriors, you eventually make it so that you survive all sorts of exotic and difficult things that are realistically more dangerous than getting stabbed really hard via the nature of the saving throw system, but an orc that attacks you always has a sizable chance of killing you? Though I guess at some point you'll become immune to critical hits from orcs due to armor class.

For the armor section, how does magic armor work? --Havvy 05:57, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

For most of your point, I have nothing to say to that. You have stated why this would not work for most play styles and I agree with you. Let that be a lesson to everyone who looked this variant over. Better yet, let me say it bold: this variant is intended for realistic play, and should NOT be considered for any other play style.

As for your question on magic armor, it remains much the same. To make things easier, assume that magic armor is produced in full suits, but if it would make for sense for only a piece of it to be found at a time, so be it. Special effects not related to armor bonus provide only a fraction of their protection equal to the number of the sections it is found in. For example, while a full suit of leather of greater fire resistance and heavy fortification would provide the full 30 fire resistance and 100% immunity to criticals, if you had only the gloves and boots they would provide only 10 fire resistance and 33% resistance to criticals. Again, on a critical confirmation roll, the armor covering the section targets provide only its own benefits but at full power. Then the formentioned partial leather, if the hands were targeted, the critical would be negated (critical immunity at 100%) would have 30 fire resistance, making these gloves a wizard's best friends.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 18:26, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Redacting Statement -- my above comment on Die Hard is false, repeat, FALSE. Die Hard changes in no way under this variant, as it allows you fight despite having no hit points left, as opposed to falling unconscious when out of hit points. I'm sorry, that was a complete brain fart.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 20:54, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Ratings

ThunderGod Cid opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.

Instead of streamlining combat, which is what needs to happen, adding more numbers and further slowing down the part of D&D that already takes forever does not appeal to me. So much math is involved that I would rather bore into my own skull with a power drill. Too much to keep track of, too much to bother with. The fact that it's got a bunch of spelling errors in it that make my inner grammar Nazi scream in agony doesn't help matters, either.

	DanielDraco opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	Overcomplicated, adds nothing, and, as discussed, introduces far more problems than it even attempts to fix. And in the interest of pointing out one of the more glaring flaws, which I don't think anyone's spotted yet: a player with Quick Draw and a sackful of adamantine arrows essentially gets DR 20/- at the price of 3.05 gp per blow.

	Ghostwheel dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.
	This variant makes a poor attempt to bring simulationism to a system that was never meant to accommodate such a mode of play, and doesn't even do it in a way that flows well in the context of an actual game, breaking immersion rather than adding to it.

Rewrite review

To casual skimmers of the wiki, please note that rating comments are directed at a former incarnation of this variant rule. To rates, please update or remove our ratings as you see fit.--Change=Chaos. Period. SC 20:18, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

MisterSinister opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.

This variant basically attempts to apply GURPS rules to DnD (I can see whole-cloth lifts from it) - and fails in a spectacular fashion. While the warmed-over VP/WP stuff we all knew and (maybe) loved from Star Wars d20 makes a comeback, this variant makes Constitution damage even more mighty than it used to be, and makes fighting guys even weaker. In all, I simply don't see why this is even necessary, much less good.

Aarnott opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.

I agree with MisterSinister's comments above. In addition... "Everytime you lose wound points your are dazed for a number of rounds equal to the damage you took. If you lose more than 25% of your wound points in one hit you are instead stunned." --> You just threw off the balance of the game in terrible, terrible ways. That's assuming that my am reading your terrible grammar correctly. A decent critical hit build will be able to pull off a crit every round. "If a creature is flat footed it automatically takes damage as if for a critical." --> Now invisibility can be used to permanently daze opponents. Clearly you have a profound understanding of the implications of what you write and it isn't stupid ideas as if for coming from the top of your head. Well thought out, Spaz. "Attacks that fail to exceed full AC graze the armor of the target, and is redirected to an adjacent space, determined as per a missed splash weapon." --> This rule you made up really leads me to wonder: have you ever actually played D&D, Spaz? You invent all these terrible and convoluted rules that don't add much besides poorly thought out stimulation. There are many good games out there based on simulation, D&D is not even close to the best chassis for it. Sitting at your gaming table would be one of the most boring experiences I think a person could endure. Once we all roll to see to how much noise our stomach makes gurgling, you'll have us roll 3d6 (don't forget the plus seven!) to determine how powerful our bowel movement is and then roll scatter dice to determine its final location.

Luigifan18 dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.

...What?!? Only critical hits are actually dangerous...?!? What?!? Um... excuse me, I think I need to beat my head against something. I choose my keyboard. ;yfuah;fusdiroau;jav/sl Oh, and did I mention that I spent half an hour correcting inane grammar and spelling mistakes?!? >_<; I was going to give this a favorable rating, since I liked how it re-evaluates the danger level of attacks, but then I realized the implications of this system, and... no, just no, I can't even vote neutral. Getting hit by a sword is getting hit by a sword - it can freaking kill you, no matter how non-severe the blow may seem to be. But a tough, battle-hardened person is much more likely to survive.