View source for User talk:Spazalicious Chaos/XP Adjustment (3.5e Variant Rule)

== Ratings ==
{{Rating |rater=Ghostwheel
|rating=oppose
|reason=Another Faildas creation. What others have said.
}}
{{Rating |rater=Foxwarrior
|rating=oppose
|reason=This variant rule does nothing fundamental despite declaring that a fundamental change is necessary. All it does is change the nature of the experience gain penalty that a high-level character gets when playing in a low-level party, if and only if they are high level due to level adjustment. Meanwhile, it breaks the perfectly tolerable balance that LA creatures can have when all the players are the same, higher level.
}}
{{Rating |rater=DanielDraco
|rating=oppose
|reason=As below. I can play CR 9001, and not care whether I'll gain another level. The punishment does not fit the crime.
}}
{{Rating |rater=TheDarkWad
|rating=oppose
|reason=What Eiji-kun about the force dragon.
}}==Bad Example==

The Centaur has 4 racial hit dice and is ECL 6. It is not a "level 1" character by any stretch. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  06:03, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

:Perfect example for that reason. It starts with way more HP and abilities than other "LVL 1" characters at LVL 1. And that was the point I was trying to make.--Change=Chaos. Period. [[User:Spazalicious Chaos| SC]] 06:12, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
:Sorry for double posting, but I'm not sure the formula completely works for XP adjustment, so any way to fix breaking points, if any?--Change=Chaos. Period. [[User:Spazalicious Chaos| SC]] 06:17, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

::I don't think you understand what ECL means then. An ECL 6 creature is intended to be played with 6th level characters; see [[SRD:Creatures as Races]]. It's not that it's "not a level 1 character" because it's substantially stronger than they are, it's actually not intended to be used with level 1 characters at all. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  06:58, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
:::Oh, I understand ECL all too well... it needs to die, and die horribly. I'm just hoping this variant is a step in the right direction.
:::Which kinda answers my own question, I think. Does this work better if the XPA is a function of LA or ECL?--Change=Chaos. Period. [[User:Spazalicious Chaos| SC]] 21:27, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

::::Neither. Any system that allows me to play a centaur wizard 1 in a party with a human cleric 1 and pay for it later with an xp deduction has failed on first principles. You want to do that with LA, you might be able to make that case for LA +1 or +2 stuff, but it's a hard sell. It's a non-started with racial hit dice and ECL, even as badly done as they are. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  21:44, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

:::::Oh look, a level 1 campaign.  "I'm gonna play a human fighter!"  Cool.  "I'm an elven wizard!"  Awesome.  And as for me... I'm going to play a Paragon Pseudonatural Great Wyrm Force Dragon.  The fact I only get 1 XP per 1000 xp gained doesn't matter, ''I'm goddamn invincible!''  And I'll continue to be invincible until, oh, CR 84. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] 22:35, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

::::::Not to mention the fixed XP penalties are extremely small and of no concern past...what, level 3? [[User:HarrowedMind|-HarrowedMind]] 00:21, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

:::::::So that means that the penalty formula should be uped? Other factors should apply, like level? What should the formula look like?--Change=Chaos. Period. [[User:Spazalicious Chaos| SC]] 00:58, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

::::::::Did you not see what Eiji wrote? If the Paragon Pseudonatural Great Wyrm Force Dragon ''lost'' 1000 experience per encounter, they'd end up destroying the entire campaign setting before shriveling into nothingness. If you want to have a ridiculous campaign in which only the players who can find stupid templates actually have any effect on the world, then your XP Adjustment rule is unhelpful, and cannot be helpful. If you don't, then your XP Adjustment rule is ineffective, and cannot be effective. --[[User:Foxwarrior|Foxwarrior]] 01:11, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

:::::::::Or, to put it another way, if you put a centaur in an otherwise first level party, balance will be wrecked no matter how long it takes for the centaur to reach 2nd level.--[[User:Ideasmith|Ideasmith]] 01:35, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

{{ri}}

:Your formula shouldn't include racial hit dice in the calculation anywhere at all. A creature with 4 or 40 or 9001 hit dice is not ever ever ever going to be equivalent to a level 1 human, no matter how much xp you want to dock them while adventuring. So you have to not allow creatures with more than 1 or 2 racial hit dice (depending on creature type) to be in a party with a level 1 human, and those creatures don't get class levels on top of it. Their first level is in creature, so that's what they get. 

:If you want to charge for LA separately with an xp tax you can do that without letting Eiji's dragon into the party, but you're still leaving yourself open to problems. Most of the time, because of collapsing game syndrome or one-shot suitability reasons, the "buy now, pay later" strategy always benefits those who "buy now". So any formula you use that lets me come in with a +5 LA as a level 1 wizard in a game of level 1 people is going to encourage that, since it looks like a straight power up for longer than most campaigns run. But if you want a formula, give them this fraction of xp: Level / (Level + LA). So with a LA +1 race you get 1/2 xp at level 1, 2/3 xp at level 2, 3/4 xp at level 3, and so on. You don't stay as far behind as you would with a normal LA setup, but it's close and you aren't hosed on hit dice at those early levels. It also matters lots in the beginning, where LA is a powerup, and drops off as you grow in level, where LA matters much less. It might even be big enough to stop people from just getting the biggest LA they can find, unless the whole party does it and fights kobolds for an extra long time.

:The real solution to fixing LA is to remove it entirely, and rework LA races as ECL races instead. They get some hit dice, some bonus crap, start the game with characters of their ECL, and multiclass into a regular class from there. Gan's done this with a few races to great effect, and it's about the only solution to the LA problem that makes any sense IMO. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  02:34, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

:: While I agree with Tarkis for the most part, I don't think what 4e did (or rather, what I ended up doing with simplified races) is a bad idea either, so that's another viable avenue to explore. That said, yes, this variant as it is currently sucks hard. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 04:06, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

:::I see you're making changes, but it still possesses the Force Dragon <s>Fallacy</s> Corollary.  :P  Thats right, I'm giving it a name. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] 22:43, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

::::@Ghost - I didn't think 4e had anything equivalent to LA or ECL in the game, so your solution seems to be "don't have those things, make simpler races in general". Not sure how that's relevant here.
::::@Eiji - It looks more like a corollary than a fallacy to me, since it's an unfortunate side effect more than something based on an unsound argument.
::::@Spaz - You need to multiply experience earned by that fraction, not just give them that fraction in xp. Should clarify that. You also need something in there about racial hit dice, not ECL, since ECL is the sum of racial hit dice and LA. You probably need to go type by type and say "creatures of <these types> are considered to have 1 class level per 2 hit dice, and creatures of <these other types> are considered to have 1 class level per hit die. Creatures with more class equivalent levels from their racial hit dice than the starting level of the game are not allowed." Determining which types go where, and if there are even types that could work with 3 or 4 racial hit die per level equivalent, is left as an exercise for the reader. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  23:54, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

::::Also, every creature has an ECL, even if that ECL is 1 because they have 1 level in a class, so your comment about ignoring this fraction if they have an ECL means that no one actually uses it ever. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  23:57, 22 September 2011 (UTC)