View source for Talk:Judge of Existence (3.5e Class)/Archive

==Review==
Ok, there's a few things to start off with. Manifesting/spellcasting classes have an inherent major/minor boost built in every time they acquire a new spell level. I don't know if the power list here is good or crap, because I don't do psionics, but if the powers are good then they get a major boost every even level. Otherwise, it's just a minor boost. But the fact that it's on even levels is weird. Aside from the Sorc, most full progression classes get new power/spell levels on every odd level, and wait until 3rd class level to get 2nd level powers. Yours is faster than the progression of everyone else, and that's probably not a good thing.

The other general thing to note is that saving throws do not increase at 1:1 rate with level, so setting ability DCs to do that means they are going to be really hard, if not basically impossible, to save against at higher level. It is much more common, and arguably fair, to start them at 10 (or 8 or 13), advance them at a rate of 1/2 level, and add an attribute modifier to the DC. The thing in electric force where you add their will save to the save DC on top of that is extra crazy.

OK, specifics.
#Gravitational force is pretty awesome for a 1st level ability. It's potentially out of line for a 1st level character to use every round, all day. You could instead just make targets really heavy, so they treated all squares as difficult terrain and had basically halved moves. And then give this version, or a tweaked one, back as a higher level ability.
#That said, gravitational force is also unclear on a few things. What action do you activate it with? Can you stack it with itself, and what happens if you do? Even if you can't stack it, how many can you have active at a time? You can't move creatures more than 100' away from other creatures that you are affecting, but you could target anyone within a mile that you can see, so can you target a bunch of people and try to bring them together? The higher level formulation is easier to understand, so why not have it affect all creatures in a 10' radius for 1d3+2 rounds or whatever, within medium range (100' + 10' / level) as a full-round action useable once per X minutes or encounter or whatever?
#Force of insight bonuses are too big in general, and Greater force of insight giving a +6 reflex bonus is crap. You may just want to push the +3 reflex up there instead, but it's not really needed at all on a class with a good ref save. The skill bonuses could get by at half, which is still decent at that level.
#Electric force is quite good damage, with a decent range. It's unclear what happens when you target someone with all 3 though, do they make 3 saves? This is a case where wording could be tweaked to make it clear. "Each bolt deals X damage to a target. A successful save against X deals half damage. The bolts may be fired at multiple targets or the same target." or whatever.
#Force of Health doesn't have a limit on how many people you can target or a range. Can you heal all of your friends in the world 1/encounter?
#Nuclear force is probably fine.
#Force of death is nuts. You're giving out 2 castings of a good 5th level spell (normally obtained at level 9) at level 6, on top of an army creating spell twice a day and on top of their other manifesting abilities. It's an actual bad ability
I'm going to stop there, because it looks like more of the same with bigger numbers from this point on.

My advice would be to dump the manifesting entirely and rework the class abilities into at-will or per encounter/5 minute abilities. You already have a lot in there that going on, and it could be a perfectly good class without the manifesting. Heavy gravity or sideways gravity crowd control on top of bolts of lightning and nuclear flames and other bits is a bunch of decent stuff to work with. But if you really want the manifesting, tone down the class features. Manifesters already get a lot of cool tricks, they don't need a lot of really good class features on top of it. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  23:10, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

:I have to disagree about save DCs that progress at a 1:1 ratio with class level. CR 20 monsters have Save DCs on their attacks that range from 25 to 35, and CR 1 monsters have DCs that range from 11 to 14, so 8 to 12 +class level would keep the DCs in line with existing DCs. Keep in mind, Tarkisflux, that with standard min-maxing, primary ability modifiers can frequently get up to or beyond +10. That said, 25+level or will save+level are both going to be too high. Making it scale according to class level instead of character level means that all their DCs rapidly become pitiful after level 10, or if they multiclass. --[[User:Foxwarrior|Foxwarrior]] 00:25, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

::Standardized powers to that of a [[SRD:Psion|Psion]]. Saves are now fixed to suggestion. 

::Specifics:
::1 and 2, Gravitational Force: I will fix it to be more like greater ability. I could tone down Electric Force then swap their positions. Would this be more agreeable?
::3: This ability is not a thing I find deeply interesting, nor highly important to the class. In fact that is the reason it is there, to teach me how to make weaker abilities. Therefore, 1) I have toned it down to the exact suggested scores (i.e. removed reflex from lesser cut skill bonuses in half; 2) and if the purpose is only for training then I wonder if the ability is out of place, and if it would make this class less confusing, more cohesive, enhance flavor and decrease power if it were to be removed. 
::4: Added some clarity to Electric Force
::5: The intent was that one could not separate dice (i.e. 1d4+2 was the least and 3d4+6 was the most - due to it getting replaced at 8th level), therefore three creatures would be the max for the lesser and ten for the greater. If you can think of a clear way to express this, I will replace with. 
::6: Glad to know I am improving. 
::7: Removed [[SRD:Slay Living|slay living]], can you think of a good replacement, or is animate dead powerful enough for its own feature? 

::That is an interesting idea, cutting all manifesting. What if I toned down the amount of powers, would that make it more balanced? I am indebted --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 00:33, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

::I attempted to post within 30sec after you commented Foxwarrior, give a few minutes to respond.

::: In my opinion, it's far more important for you to understand *why* Tark's saying the things he is, rather than just doing it because he's saying it. Be sure to understand and ASK QUESTIONS (most importantly WHY), so you know why, and thus make correct decisions in the future. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 00:52, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

:::: Why is the Gravitational Force feature stronger than the Electric Force feature? 

::::What separates a Partial manifesting class from a full manifesting class? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 01:12, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

::::: [[SRD:Psychic_Warrior|This]] is a partial manifesting class, and [[SRD:Psion|this]] is a full manifesting class. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 01:59, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

::::::Fox - Fair enough. Getting 10 + Level isn't substantially different from getting 10 + Level/2 + Attrib Mod at the high ends. The progression curves will look different, and it will probably be easier to save against in the beginning when you don't get a static attrib mod boost to DC and they get one to saves, but meh.

::::::FK - I think you misunderstood the save DCs I was suggesting before. The full formula would be 10 + half level + attrib mod, and that's it. Right now it looks like they get 10 + half level as the base for the ability, and then add class level and half an attrib mod on top of that. And that's a lot. You should probably go with X + Character Level instead of X + Class Level so that they remain useful after level 10. I'd also suggesting setting X to 12 or 13 for all abilities and dropping the half attrib modifier thing, since 12 or 13 is basically incorporating a minor attribute modifier in the base 10 at that point. But it should just be those 2 things, base 12/13 + Char Level, and nothing else. 

::::::Gravity isn't necessarily stronger than Elec, it was just strong for level 1. You used to be able to use it to push people off of buildings / into pits / into acid pools / etc. It was an extremely useful crowd control tool in many circumstances, and had basically no limiters on it. No action cost, no times per encounter / day restrictions, nothing. And while that's fine for a class to get, it's not necessarily a good thing at level 1 when most options are "hit it with a greatsword again" or "cast balance range appropriate spell and hope to make an impact in the encounter". Now it's a burst effect that just pulls guys in towards you, and keeps them coming for a few rounds. It's a tool that lets you literally pull enemies off of your allies, but not in a way that lets you do mean things to them without other setup. It's probably fine now, but I'm going to suggest a simplifying change anyway. Make it a swift or standard action (I'd be fine with it as a swift at rogue level since you don't have real offense at that level, but others may want it toned down if it's at will), and have it take effect immediately with no duration. Then you get the same initial draw without any weirdness about ground zero or what happens when you move. It should also just allow a regular save without the "grab on" qualifier; you can take no damage from a room full of fire with sufficient skill, I don't see why you'd need to grab something to dodge a force like this. Also, now that Gravity is a burst centered on you it should probably specify what happens when people run into each other, because they will be doing a lot of that. Do they fall prone in the same square? Do they pile up in your square? These sorts of interactions should be clarified.

::::::While we're on that force, Greater Gravity should just get a regular save. The wording there is also unclear or confusing. Do you affect all targets within a 60' radius and move them towards a point up to 100' away? The reference to objective gravity is weird, since that could make you fall up at regular speed and you follow it with a specific speed limit. I don't know what falling up at 50' and down at all the feet (per falling rules) would do, but my guess is nothing. And if it does let you fly up into the air, it probably shouldn't last for minutes. That's a lot of combat time to have a target stuck in a space in the air with an ability that you can spam as often as you want. And it still needs an action cost. The only things I can think of to adjust the ability are somewhat far from the current design, but you could make it single target so you can slingshot people off the field (or use it to fly in a weird fashion).

::::::Force of Healing - instead of saying they can share the dice, say they can split the dice up among however many targets they like, in 1d6+2 increments (or wahtever). With that limit in place a range is less necessary, but might still be nice.

::::::A special call out goes to Force of Life. I don't much care that you're giving out 7th and 9th level spells as 1/day spell-like like that don't require costly material components (because of the spells you've chosen), but I do care that you're giving Rez out before the cleric gets Raise Dead. You may want to push it back a class level, and put something else in at level 8. Or split the abilities up, whatever, as long as you're not bringing back the dead before the cleric is. I'd also probably swap Revivify in for Rez, but if you don't want to reference additional books replacing with Raise Dead + no level loss would also be fine. The reason here is Rez lets you bring people back with no body and who have been dead an absurd length of time, and that doesn't seem fitting with the class to me. I could be wrong on the fitting though, in which case it's fine.

::::::On nuclear force, after thinking about it those radii are kinda big. Not too big for the ability necessarily, but hard to use in a fight against anything less than a brigade big. Dropping 10/20 feet off of the radii, respectively, and allowing the caster to select the action radius of the effect (to a minimum of 10/20 feet radius respectively) might make them more useful.

::::::And with all that said, I'd run this through a couple more edit passes. I can make out most of what you're getting at I think, but the tone seems wildly different in places and there are odd sentence breaks. That may be intentional, but I think you can get a non-standard cadence and style that is a bit more polished and easier to follow and still fits what you want. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  05:08, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

:::::::Your comment on the yatri spectre page, that major progressions should be on odd levels and minor on even, how much room would you afford me on that? Your idea of single target effects could be placed on 6th level (replacing the feat), yet could this be part of the gravity progression? Or should it be simply a separate ability?... Would it unbalance the other force abilities (chiefly electric and nuclear)?
:::::::Amended Healing 

:::::::Amended Force of Life

:::::::Amended Nuclear Force

:::::::There are now collision mechanics for gravity, though the Greater ability still has a duration and the xyz can move. What are the pros and cons, from a DM’s point of view, of per encounter vs. per day? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 07:43, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

{{ri}}

The major/minor thing is a guideline, not an absolute. I haven't even been looking at your stuff in terms of major/minor abilities, so it's not really jumping out as odd or anything. The goal of it is to keep people from overloading a class with too many abilities, and focus on ones that are useful.

The single target thing could fit into the gravity progression, or be it's own thing. It was just a suggestion, and I'm not even sure it was a good one. Adding it wouldn't unbalance any of the other forces, but would give a precedent for adding single target effects for them as well if you wanted. Not sure where they would go though...

Gravity is much clearer now, and the durations look reasonable. You may want to have Greater Gravity still require a standard action though, since it's such a big upgrade already. You could balance that by granting the lesser gravity as a swift action though (that doesn't stack with the greater). The fact that you can pull people up is still a bit weird though. Since it takes effect where you are, you have to be flying already to get any sort of upward lift. And it is still weird with the falling rules, which state that you fall the whole distance instantly. If you want to pull people up, it probably works better as an instant pull that drops people afterwards, like the lesser ability, or as an ability that holds people at the center for the duration after pulling them in (and pulls in new people who get too close as well). The hold version is a lot stronger though, and is probably not appropriate for an at-will rogue level class.

The addition of shaken to the gravity effects is also odd. Shaken is a [Fear] effect and seems out of place. Flat-footed, entangled, or even dazed or staggered might be more appropriate, but the latter 2 are probably too strong for an at-will AoE rogue level power. I'd vote flat myself (or cramped from the homebrew list), but you should look over the [[SRD:Combat|SRD condition list]] and [[3.5e Glossary#Creature Abilities and Status Conditions|homebrew condition list]] yourself.

Unless you really don't care what feat they take, or like inviting annoying technical discussions, you should qualify the bonus feat you're giving at 6. Even "bonus feat for which they meet the prerequisites" would be fine. You could also just reaplce it entirely, because bonus feats are boring IMO. You've got a reasonably good chassis already, so you could afford a utility or fluff ability here. An at-will mage hand by using gravity or soemthing might be nice (or even throw that in at 1, and upgrade its range and weight at 6).

From a DMs point of view, per encounter means you can expect the character to be able to do more stuff in the course of a day. They never run out of things in a day, even if they might run out of stuff in a fight (ex: every 4e character ever) and need a breather after. Per day means that there is a hard limit on the contributions of a character in any given day. If they have a really limited selection of abilities, you might not expect them to use one of their good abilities in a given fight. Or they might use a bunch of them because things were going badly, and then have to contribute much less to the rest of the encounters in the day. This limitation is often covered with per day abilities being stronger than per encounter abilities (which are themselves stronger than at-will abilities most of the time), which makes some people sad/annoyed. The combination of strong daily limited good abilities with little to fall back on leads to a phenomena referred to as "the 15 minute workday", where the daily guy shows up, uses all his big thigns, and goes home until tomorrow. I think it's wildly overstated and rarely happens in practice, but it's a concern for a lot of people. Encounter bypasses that entirely, but removes the ability to pull extra tricks out to save yourself in case things go south. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  21:38, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

:2, 3 and 4: changed to entangled, added per day. Yes it would be a bit of a challenge, yet with some ingenuity or a cliff, it could be done. Reversing gravity has so many applications, many of which can greatly reverse the tide (much to the DM’s chagrin); therefore a few limits should be held. 

:6: Thank you for explaining. The focus abilities are now per encounter, all others per day. 

:Have added a set of features to 6th level. The power ''[[SRD:Control Object|control object]]'' is the psionic equivalent to mage hand, that does not overshadow later gravity or focus abilities (as [[SRD:Telekinetic Force|Telekinetic Force]] would). 

:I could not think of any other mechanical benefit that related to charging cells. Rage fills the gap, yet is a laceration from the other two focus abilities. --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 00:18, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

::*What happens if you pull someone into the air with greater grav still isn't explained, and it should be. There are other rules in play here, specifically falling, and their interaction is not clear.
::*If rage doesn't fit, cut it. It's not like you need it. More abilities does not necessarily make a better class, and bloat often makes a worse one.
::*Throw... why does it even have a duration? How does that work? And the weight limit doesn't work at all. 120lbs when you get it is not something you could likely use in an encounter unless you were fighting small creatures.
::*Is the manifestation thing for Throw, or its own thing? If it's not its own thing, why is it even there when none of the other abilities gets that writeup? Either they all should get something like that, either in that format or written into the description instead of on it's own line, or none of them should have it at all. And if it's its own thing, just a random fuzzy thing you can throw around, it seems like a wasted opportunity to give them an invis canceller.
::*EMP blocking telepathy is interesting, but cancelling buffs is bizarre. Aside from being open to weird edge cases and arguments about what "is" a buff (for example, see your rage ability - is that a buff when applied unwillingly?), it doesn't specify whether it suppresses or dispels them, and yes, there is a significant difference. Look up Antimagic Field and Dispel Magic to see the difference. I would suggest instead that you focus on the telepathy thing, and have it affect telepathy and only [Mind-Affecting] spells instead of generic buffs. You can have it suppress or dispel as you like. The range should probably be higher as well, since it appears to be centered on you.
::*I liked the Force of Life stuff, and will miss it. If you don't think it fits though, don't put it back in. And if you are going to put it back in, try to find a psi version of restoration to use instead of the spell version, just for consistency.
::*Control object feels off to me, as you're running things like a puppet isntead of forcing it to or away from you. And as TK Force is single target, I can't see it ever overshadowing the multi-target AoE grav bursts. They apply in totally different circumstances and are used for completely different things.

::Ok, those specifics out of the way, I think you're close to the point where you need to step back from individual powers and figure out how this class uses them. A collection of reasonable powers on a reasonable usage schedule on their own doesn't get you a finished class, it needs to be a semi-coherent whole as well. So if some class abilities don't fit, or you don't think that manifesting is really the feel you want, cut stuff and replace it. Spend some time getting the feel right. Here are some questions that might guide the process:
::#What does a typical fight look like for the class at level 2, 6, or 10 (or whatever levels you feel like looking at)?
::#What are they doing out of combat at those levels?
::#Are there any areas where they don't have relevant abilities that you wanted them to, or opponents they suck against that you didn't want them to?
::#Are there any places where they are useful that you didn't want them to be (like the old necromancy stuff), or opponents they are too good against for what you wanted?
::#Do they get enough uses of their abilities to meet your goals? Too many of some, not enough of others? 

::So aside from pulling, swapping, or replacing abilities, you might find that some of your per day powers should be per encounter instead, or even at-will. For reference, if you start wanting to give them 5+ per day, just make it an encounter and be done with it. Similarly, if you want to give them 3+ per encounter, just go at-will.

::And you don't need to actually answer those questions here, they're just things I think you should start considering while it gets polished. I've spent enough time looking at it that I know what I'd do, but that doesn't seem relevant. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  04:39, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

:::What are your thoughts on the Turn or Rebuke features? Would you consider this class to be ready to be placed on main navigation page? Where we can still polish - but would be playable. --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 18:22, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

==Name==

What would be a good name for this class? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 18:22, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

: Try a cool-sounding name for once, not another name that sounds strange and which no-one knows the meaning of. Seriously. Physikineticist, The Strong Force (weak vs. strong forces, gravity etc), Kinetic Psychomanipulator, or something else. But srsly. That name sounds hella dumb. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 06:59, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

::What Ghostwheel means to say is that he hates Turkish, but likes English, especially those parts which resemble Latin or Greek. When choosing a name, consider your target audience: the names that are most popular are the ones that are clever manipulations of words and names the viewer knows, "references", as it were. Since nobody here other than you has any knowledge of Turkish or Sanskrit, using words from them as names just makes them sound like nonsense. --[[User:Foxwarrior|Foxwarrior]] 07:17, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

:::Any problems with the new name? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 15:33, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

::::I find the name to be...ok, it could be better but it's like the difference between owning and driving an old car or owning and driving something much higher class, like a Porsche, Lamborghini or whatever. I was thinking something like "Principle" could work as the name, since principles are unchanging, or static, as in static electricity, as in an Electric Force. It also somewhat references your line "They decide what laws are to be broken." as a persons principles affect which laws they are willing to break, if any. But that's just me, I can have crazy different tastes to other people.--[[User:Stryker|Stryker]] 01:13, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

== Balance Range ==

If you're giving it powers on top of all those class abilities it's probably wizard-level. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 23:32, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

:I am under the impression that most DMs prefer the rouge balance level (which translates to more people playing it), I consider it to be an important goal. Thus, 1) what would this class require to be a rouge level; 2) would demoting it destroy it’s amount of interest; and 3) could this be done without removing its dungeonering abilities? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 01:12, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

:: Regardless of what "most" DMs prefer, no balance point is any better than any other, and if a better balance range exists for a class, it should be reclassified as that. That said it's "rogue", not "rouge". For a start, I'd remove the psionics completely to make it rogue-level, since giving full powers gives too many options and abilities for many rogue-level characters. You already have decent healing and damage by level 3 even without psionics. Giving them psionics on top of all of that is too much. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 01:59, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

== Powers ==

Would it remain partial manifesting if amount of powers known was increased by 1 per level, and powers points per day was decreased by two? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 15:33, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

: Stick with what's been done so far to remain within conventions. And from a mechanical standpoint, no, 1 power is worth a lot more than 2 PP. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 16:26, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

:::For future reference, how many is it worth? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 17:51, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

::::That depends on how many power points you already have, which powers you already know, and which power you would get or lose. And, of course, its true value depends on what actually happens in the campaign in which it's used. --[[User:Foxwarrior|Foxwarrior]] 17:58, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

:::::If power points gained from this class were cut in half, would an extra power known every other level be balanced? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 19:39, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
== Scaling ==

Since the class is only 10 levels long, it has problem scaling higher. I shall make a few changes to the class, keep them if you like or revert if you want, and hopefully they'll help in that regard. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 02:32, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

== Yeah... ==

Don't give them metamorphosis or teleport. Neither really belong at rogue-level, and don't even fit the flavor of the class. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 17:23, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

:I'd argue against teleport being non-rogue, but it's moot here because it's a 5th level power and shouldn't happen in a 10 level partial manifester class in the first place. Combat teleportation, like DD or some other shifting, is definitely not wizard level and don't seem inappropriate to me. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  19:03, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

:: Yeah, I meant long-range plot-ignoring teleports. Obviously short-range combat teleports are fine, like the Dimensional Slide power, and I could definitely see that here instead. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 19:06, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

:::I will remove teleport. I specifically did not want in combat teleporting powers, and thus removed them from original. Are there any issues with [[SRD:Astral Caravan]]?
:::What is wrong with metamorphosis? Metamorphosis changes the shape and physical abilities of a judge; noting that the judge main principle is changing matter…? 
:::Turn or rebuke could be changed to a companion, yet I think turning allows for more types of uses, and is kinder on the DM. Also it has a first edition lesser ability (paladin), where as animal companion does not (familiars can only be used to distract in combat). --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 19:39, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

:::: Astral Caravan is also problematic--notice that it's a Nomad-only power, and freely taking discipline-list-only powers leaves a bad taste in my mouth. And the problem with Metamorphosis is that it is not rogue-level--if you want to keep it, start by changing the balance point to wizard-level. And turning is fine. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] 19:54, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

:::::Then I will also remove Astral Caravan. What makes [[SRD:Metamorphosis]] a wizard level power? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 20:02, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

:::::Are there any unnecessary 1st level powers (there seems to be too many)? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 20:04, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

::::::Anything that lets you dumpster-dive through monster manuals for things to Voltron together into some kind of broken combination which was never meant to exist in the first place is ''above'' wizard level. Even as a wizard-level supporter, I find ''any'' WotC implementation of polymorph to be insane.-[[User:MisterSinister|MisterSinister]] 20:20, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

:::::::Mimic is strange: it lets a microscopic Nature's Judge transform into a large bed without substantially altering its size. What does that even mean? Does its size category stay the same, despite being larger or smaller? Or can only Nature's Judges who normally occupy about 150 cubic feet use it? The former is nonsensical, and the latter only works for a very small subset of creatures (some horses, maybe?). Also, when its size and shape changes, do all of its stats stay the same? Can a Thri-Kreen bed attack with more swords than a Human bed can? --[[User:Foxwarrior|Foxwarrior]] 00:10, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

::::::::Is Mimic better? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 05:00, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

==Judgment Rating==

Adding HD gained from this class makes the Judgment rating way to high, for the following reasons:
#Greater Nuclear Force deals 15d12 (~97.5) damage at 10th level, at the same level: a rogue gains a +5d6 bonus to sneak attack (which is highly conditional); a psychic warrior highest damage dealing power, [[SRD:Exhalation of the Black Dragon|exhalation of the black dragon]], deals 3d6 damage; 
#Greater Nuclear Force save DC, with an Int score of 25 (using [[Balanced Wealth (3.5e Variant Rule)|Balanced Wealth]] - 15+2race+8), is 27; the save DC to negate a 4th level bard spell (assuming the same stats for Charisma) is 21; this is also the case for the psychic warrior. 
#If amount of powers known was linked to judgment rating they would gain five more powers known.
#Turn or Rebuke Elementals: at 10th level judges can turn as a 12th level cleric or 15th level paladin. 
*All examples assume a 10th level character with only levels in Judge of Existence

I understand it may be preferable for characters that have racial HD, thus may amend it to include only racial HD and other class levels. --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 20:07, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

:Minor note: we never consider sneak attack conditional at the rogue-level balance point. It is just assumed there is a way around the conditions (which there are many). That being said... It still is a bit over the top for damage. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 20:21, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

:I just read the ability. It caps at your total HD. So your example is off. It would deal 10d12 (~65 damage) at 10th level. And don't compare to exhalation of the black dragon. Psywars do things like gain extra move actions with Hustle, and expend psionic focus twice to use [[SRD:Greater Psionic Weapon|greater psionic weapon]] with [[SRD:Deep Impact|deep impact]] and a massive power attack (using leap attack + shock trooper) with a two-handed weapon. Think more like 2d6 (sword) + 4d6 (greater psionic weapon) + 28 (power attack) + 2 (weapon mod) + 10 (1.5x strength) ~= 61 damage. --[[User:Aarnott|Aarnott]] 20:29, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

==Mimic==

Mimic would be extremely fun for players, yet I am not quite sure it still fits this class’s flavor. Is there a way to fix it to be more balanced?--[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 23:15, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

==Theme and Amendments==

First off, Thank you for taking the time and energy to look through this class. This class was initially meant as a training tool for making other classes (especially the dream ones I have been working on) – a way to learn the basics before creating rules and ideas. Therefore criticism is one of the mandates of this class. 

Theme was one of the points you stated was lacking, therefore I have listed the reasoning behind each class feature (including powers) – such that we may discuss what works and does not here. The intended theme was to create a class that could manipulate matter and physical laws. Time, Teleportation and Attitudes (and most mental changes) are excluded from this, because it would be too much to encompass. 
#Gravitational/Electric/Nuclear Force abilities: Some of the more elementary laws of nature
#Turn or Rebuke Elementals/Constructs: Sapient or non-sapient, energy is the life-blood of matter. Yet the more I think about it, the more I am inclined to remove constructs. One turning ability (especially on a common creature) seems like enough.  
#Mimic: Yes there is a great deal of math in this feature, perhaps it would be best if I removed it all from this feature; making saves and HP same as natural form, then had most the other scores static. The theme behind mimic: if one can change matter, can one not change one’s self into matter. I do not know of any classes or abilities that allow a player to become an item, let alone an item that is highly useful for when the party travels or a way to spy and ensnare the parties’ enemies. 

:Thank you again. The hope of this class is that it will train me to be better at creating articles. That I may begin to mature and become a better use to this community. --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 02:14, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

::I question the point behind Mimic. With the power list, do you really need more utility? This class can heal, do reasonable damage, use powers for some extra utility, sneak with the ability to turn into a small item and at later levels become transportation for the party. Also turning into random objects reminds me of old cartoons where the trains/cars have eyes and talk to people, which seems at odds with the serious tone of the rest of the class. My other criticism, why have so many different "Forces"? By that I mean why bother separating your two main damage sources into different themes?  For that matter why does the "Gravity" abilities have to be different, couldn't the Judge's control over matter and existence allow him to just move creatures? Basically if he's the JUDGE OF EXISTENCE why does he have so many specialized names for his abilities, would it not make more sense to just give one overriding name or theme for his different abilities (Principle of Potential, Principle of Energy and Principle of Matter as just some examples, these would be the names for Gravitational Force, Electric Force and Nuclear Force respectively). 

::Remember this is a world of dragons and giants. Nuclear force could easily be rewritten as "releasing the kinetic potential inside matter to cause explosive energy" and Electric force could rewritten as the judge creating semi-unstable shafts of potential energy, with the greater variant making the energy even more unstable resulting in the instability creating a small and incomplete implosion of surrounding matter (the lightning strikes caused in the 15'). All that said you've done a good job, this is quite the improvement over your old work. If I came off as angry in this post I apologize, I'm in a rather bad mood due to personal issues.--[[User:Stryker|Stryker]] 04:39, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

:::Removed mimic - due to the very idea of it being comical! I am speechless as to the ramifications if left unchecked. 

:::(on mixing class features into one) In theory, yes, all laws are interrelated. From the standpoint of appearance: it is much easier on the eyes and mind to have separate abilities. I hear you, that both electric force and nuclear force have damage potential. The intent was that electric could be stacked, and was more selective, but could only effect a limited number of enemies; while nuclear could not be stacked, dealt more damage over a larger area, but also caused damage to allies. From a more flavorful standpoint: it would seem odd that only two out of the four natural forces was mentioned. I am not quite sure how gravitational force is any way similar to the above, mind explaining more? Also gravity moves whole zones, instead of one or two creatures. --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 13:35, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

::::I meant what the Gravitational Force ability does, not Gravity itself. Your the Judge of Existence, will them to exist in a different place or something. Part of my confusion with this class, and why I think these things is that I see no flow to the end character, it's like a mass of different abilities granting power over different things (and to a casual viewer or someone who didn't pay much attention in Science class) that don't seem to have much of a connection to each other. Basically, why separate things into multiple different abilities, thereby making it that much harder to define the main flavor of the class (which seems to be a guy who Judges existence, thereby controlling it, yet he only controls a select few abilities, this doesn't mean add a shitload more abilities, the abilities you have are very reasonable) when you could slightly alter the flavor to make everything fit in a neat little package.P.S My main concern with Mimic wasn't it being comical, I was concerned about the utility it added and etc. (Though I can't shake the thought of a Judge transforming into a train with huge eyes saying to his party "Jump on board fellas! But don't step on my liver *audience laughter*")-[[User:Stryker|Stryker]] 02:10, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

:::::Can you show me a rough sketch of what a damage dealing-healing-gravity changing-element controlling feature would look like? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 04:01, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

::::::I can't draw to save my life. I can tell you what I assume it would look like though, a mostly transparent light blue fire, like how steam distorts your vision but imagine that in the shape of fire with a light blue tinge to the surroundings, as for what the "element" would be...I would say it's just the ability to control, distort, reshape and destroy existence (to a certain degree), so not really an element. Also don't think too highly of my opinion, I' not terribly active on this site, and I don't create much homebrew (I have a few things in the works, but other commitments stop me from investing time into them). I just like to give my two cents, as I believe every different perspective brings to light things other people didn't or can't see.--[[User:Stryker|Stryker]] 01:58, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

:::::::Sorry for improperly iterating, not a drawn sketch, a written sketch. --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] 17:49, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

I was watching a movie recently in which there was a character with both telekinesis and healing, sort of like the Judge of Existence: E.T. You need an empathic voodoo ability in there somewhere though. --[[User:Foxwarrior|Foxwarrior]] 06:46, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

:Will be merging the electric and nuclear force abilities shortly, one all powerful damage ability should be enough; instead, making it into a single progression. But will be keeping the hydrogen and magnetism as is. Thus there should be plenty of room for another ability. What type of voodoo ability were you thinking about? (If one wanted it to remain in a quasi-scientific realm.) --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 17:05, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

::The type of voodoo ability that E.T. has, obviously. --[[User:Foxwarrior|Foxwarrior]] ([[User talk:Foxwarrior|talk]]) 17:35, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

==Skill Modifier==

Can it ever be above 8? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 00:17, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

==Epic Levels==

What would be a good epic level feature? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 17:49, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

== JOE's abilities ==

1)In practical, everyday terms, what does this class do?

2)Is this a intended to be a base class or a prestige class? Most base classes that are short have a reason for being short.

3)Why does this character learn 1-6 level spells on a normal schedule, and need to hit epic level to use seventh level spells?

4)You added a new subsystem or two in here. This is a bad thing. DND already has too many subsystems.

5)Transmutation specialization doesn't help this character much, given his spell list.

6)Acceleration could be extremely OP with the right build. The tome fighter, a VH class, only gets an extra immediate action at level 13 and an extra swift at level 19. That being said, they don't get many abilities that require swift actions, making this somewhat OP ability useless in their hands.

-Overall, it should function mechanically- but I have no clue whatsoever what this class is supposed to be.[[User:Fluffykittens|Fluffykittens]] ([[User talk:Fluffykittens|talk]]) 19:41, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

I hope you do not mind that I gave your points numbers, for the sake of reference. (They can be removed if you wish.)
:1)(Explained below.)
:2)This is meant as a base class. Once one knows The Law, there is not much more to know. Which is more or less why it is short. 
:3)This class would become broken if it acquired 7th level spells before a wizard. 
:4)What subsystem are you talking about: the Judgment rating (which is there only to help if one should multi-class), or the swift actions (which matter only in psionics as a ready action, otherwise there really is no gain), or something else? 
:5)You are absolutely right about transmutation, while most spells are in the school, few have modifiers that relate to level. Any better ideas? is there a different way to make transmutations more powerful than other spells? or do you think it should be flatly removed?
:6)The swift action is there only to move the meteors gained at 10th level form Gravitational Force. The meteors require an action, thus decided to give them one that mattered little – but still had a cost (not a free action). Unlike an immediate or move action, a swift action is only used in psionics (which a character is unlikely to have if ranking in this class); but if you think that the meteors should be moved as free actions, I will completely remove the acceleration. 

:A clean way to put it, would be that this class turns trees into rocks, or makes centrifugal force into centripetal force. Turning one rule into another – but noting most is science based fission vs. fusion – an outsider sadly might consider this class just to be a mad genius that does stuff. Does that help? Or… I am trying to keep the explanation clean and to the point – and certainly do not want you to be confused. Or does the fluff needed to be worded into more common language?

::2)The thing is, most short base classes are meant to transfer into another base class or prestige class. A warlock who reaches 15th level has become a fiend, and will probably next take levels in true fiend, conduit, or fiendish brute. A knight will probably next take levels in a prestige class appropriate to their order; for example, a bane knight will probably next take levels in soulseared. I don't see any such progression with the JOE.
::3)As is, it seemingly gets a bunch of random (as in, I can't see any pattern between the spells on his spell list) spells at the same rate primary casters acquire spells from levels one to twelve, and then suddenly stops gaining spells. If you want him to have a weaker spell progression, you should probably use a spell progression similar to the Bard.
::4)Subsystems was maybe the wrong word here- but you use a lot of terminology in the making of this class that is exclusive to this class and referenced nowhere else. This makes the class slightly harder to understand, and increases bookkeeping. Instead of judgement rating, you could simply put the mechanics every time they are relevant (For example, change electrobolt's saving throw from DC10+2/3 Judgment rating+INT mod to DC10+levels in JOE+1/2 other class levels+INT mod. This changes the formula slightly, but also simplifies it).
::5)Remove the ability. If you want him to be a transmutation specialist, give him potential access to every transmutation spell in existence(along with the bard's lowered spell progression), trim his spell list to remove some of the spells that don't make sense for a transmutation specialist to have, and have him prepare spells like a cleric.
::6)As is, this mostly useless for this class- but if he takes levels in a martial adept class, he can get 4 boosts in a single turn. If you want to limit his ability to use the meteors from gravitational force, make it a free action useable 1/round.
::Using magic to change the laws of nature doesn't make much sense as a class concept, nor would it explain why you named you class "judge of existence". The laws of nature are merely our observations on how the natural world operates; changing this would either be an illusion effect (to change people's perception of how the world appears to operate) or a wish/miracle level effect (if you are actually tampering with the laws of nature). "Turning rocks into trees" and suchlike is what every other mage in the game does; I really don't see how your character is different. "Turning one rule into another – but noting most is science based fission vs. fusion" science is the very opposite of "the laws of the universe change when you want them to". The fluff here needs a complete rewrite. [[User:Fluffykittens|Fluffykittens]] ([[User talk:Fluffykittens|talk]]) 21:46, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

== Comments on New Version ==

Not a rating yet, just some comments.
*Shaping that isn't treated as a spell, like wood and stone objects, needs a volume. Because shaping a planet is dumb.
*The whole shaping section is hard to read. Bullet points are your friend.
*Telekinesis may as well be its own class feature, rather than something hidden in shape. Referencing pounds of force is fine if you're a physicist, like me, and bad if you're a normal gamer because no one else knows how that works. Instead do maximum object weight and general movement (ft/round, dancing property, etc.)
*Not being able to move magic items is bizarre.
*Sound shape references a Deception check, which is not a thing.
*Transmutation... I skipped it.
*Insight to saves is straight up broken.
*Save DCs are generally calculated with 1/2 class level, not 2/3. It's not a big difference, but it is a weird one without justification.
*The basic electro nuclear attack may as well be all the time, with multiple bolts per action granted as they level up (or even just make it an attack action so they get 1 per iterative attack). The healing and explosion thing may as well remain per day.
*Reincarnate is weird given the fluff. Recommend revivify (or psionic revivify if you want to stay in the SRD) instead. Uses a healing use or whatever.
*Gravitational force... I also skipped it. And I'm pretty much skimming from here out...
*Earth is not a damage type. Recommend bludgeoning / piercing instead.
*Divine Rank 1 at 20 is nuts. Go with 0 if you have to (it's a thing), but even that is nuts.
Everything here could benefit from streamlining the advancement descriptions. Bullet points, single line entries for upgrades, splitting things up a bit more, putting upgrades in the table, something ''needs'' to be done to improve readability. It is hard to read and hard to follow, but looks like it might be ok underneath all that, maybe. It's hard to tell and easy to miss problematic stuff in the current form. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  00:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

:Thank you. If I could show my gratitude in more than words, I would. And will return the favor on request. Here is what has recently answered:
#shaping given a volume
#added lots of bullets, you are right they are much better
#Telekinesis now a feature, and is much more simplified.
#The previous version did mention that you could move magical items, just not shape them. However the new version is hopefully more clear on this.
#changed to an opposed Will save
#insight removed
#Most saves are fixed to 1/2, with only 1 exception: Gravitational Force is “+ class level” the logistics of having two different gravities for such a large area account for why this is more challenging.
#electro nuclear has had some major changes (mostly to simplify), the reincarnate is still there, but may put revivify instead.
#removed Earth damage and increased Fire damage with cinder cone
#The final capstone is up in the air, what would you  suggest as a final ability of the judge?

:More universal advancement would be nice, will start working on having universal damage types at least. Thank you so much for your help with this, every link is important.--[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 02:18, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

::OK... was looking over the changes, and the the universal advancement table hit. And all the damage types went and changed. And while some of that advancement looks ok (if overly verbose), the DCs are weird for reasons I can't figure out. Why are they not all 10 + half level + <stat> mod? Randomly changing the base 10 to something else does bad things to the die mechanics. It's 10 because that's the low average of the d20 that people are rolling against your DC, and making it not 10 alters the fundamental success rate assumptions that go into the whole save system. YOU NEED A GOOD REASON TO DO THAT; WHY ARE YOU DOING THAT?

::Moving on. I guess we're just doing general comments for a while until the big changes calm down. Since you want a more unified advancement structure, I don't see any reason to have different pools for transmutations and shapings and divinations. You could probably get away with doubling the number at each level and letting people do whatever they wanted with them. If you really want some sort of limit, you could do a concurrent effect one where you can't have two active transmutes at the same time or a cool down one where you can't do another shaping within 5 minutes of your last one.

::Gravity might work better as a zone transmutation than its own thing. You already have magic and alignment based zone adjustments, why not gravity too? It seems like you could simplify it enough to get it into the same format as your other transmutations. The limitation that you need something to stand on at the edge of the ability seems unnecessary, for example, since things could just start falling one way and then fall the regular direction when they hit the edge. If you just reverse gravity, things just float at the top of the zone and don't fall either direction until the duration is up. Since it's centered on the Judge and they're going to take it in the face too, you might as well just remove the Fort save and go with the grab on rules from climb + normal falling rules when you hit the edge or whatever (because you just fell x feet, even if it was along 'the ground'). Referencing existing rules is generally better than writing new ones IMO, and it also serves to simplify the ability while also making it more familiar.

::And a general comment, I'm not sure this feels like a Judge of anything anymore, and the judge flavor feels sort of tacked on. It might be helpful to focus on the transmutation aspects of the class and less on the universal law thing that seems barely intact. If you wanted a different name, the land / area transmutation sort of reminds of the Final Fantasy Tactics Geomancer (which isn't anything like the classical Geomancer, but meh), and you might be able to steal that one. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  05:39, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

:::Draft a way to make the gravity alteration a part of transmutations. Fixed saves to be standard. --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 06:15, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

::::In the style of holy then:
::::*Horizontal Gravity areas cause all creatures standing within them to fall prone, and begin to slide past the ground as if it were a shear cliff face. They may attempt to grab the ground and cease their fall as if they were falling past a cliff face. If they fail to grab on, they suffer falling damage as normal when land on or bounce off of an appropriately angled wall or fall outside of the area of effect. The total distance of their fall is equal to their horizontal distance traveled. Flying creatures within the area adjust their heading so that they are now pointed at the ground. They may fly normally within the area, so long as they have sufficient maneuverability to turn and avoid a collision with the ground on their next turn. Colliding with the ground causes them to cease flying and begin falling, as previously indicated. This has no effect on swimming or burrowing creatures, other than to confuse their sense of direction.
::::*Reversed Gravity areas cause all creatures standing to begin to fall upwards as if affected by [[SRD:Reverse Gravity|''reverse gravity'']]. Flying, swimming, or burrowing creatures are unaffected aside from their confusing their sense of direction. 

::::I left off diagonal gravity areas, because they mostly push people to the ends and then buffet them down to the edge without substantial harm or discomfort. In about a round. So it's kind of boring, but it could be written up if that was a thing you wanted. These two cover the "remove for a while" and "remove and cause damage" cases, which seemed more common by far. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  07:03, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::In other news, shaping sound could do with a range and stuff, and the permanency thing isn't that clear either.
:::::It's odd to call something electricity if it can be any damage type.
:::::Elemental Form sounds dumpster-divable, and you'd probably have to for it to be worthwhile most of the time.
:::::The Ex-Judge section is, like that section usually is, annoying.
:::::Other than that, and the gravity stuff Tarkisflux is talking about, this class actually seems quite playable. --[[User:Foxwarrior|Foxwarrior]] ([[User talk:Foxwarrior|talk]]) 07:34, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

::::::Fixed gravity, and simplified, added another gravity ability. Added zone limiters, and a range (the judge need not be at its center anymore). Elemental stuff now completely removed. Shape sound removed – did not want to have another calculation. Permanency removed, all shapings are now permanent. Fox, if a player brought you this class for your campaign, would you allow it? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 22:31, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

:::::::I've allowed (probably multiple) classes I've liked less.
:::::::By the way, 50 cubic feet isn't very much; it's less than one 5-foot cube. --[[User:Foxwarrior|Foxwarrior]] ([[User talk:Foxwarrior|talk]]) 06:52, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

::::::::Fixed to 5' cubes (what I had intended, had bad wording). What is keeping you from liking the features? (Not fluff, we can work on that later.) --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 20:54, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

== A Bit Lost Here ==

I'm not seeing any descriptions for fission/fusion abilities.  Are they already listed, were they previously listed, or are they stand-ins until there's a decision on how they work?  --[[User:Maninorange|Maninorange]] ([[User talk:Maninorange|talk]]) 08:33, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

:Stand ins, have features from older version (if curious check out the two variations at bottom of page). Do you have any ideas on transmutations past level 16? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 08:37, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

==Confusion==

There have been a number of criticisms on confusion from wording and issue with flavor. Therefore, I would like to ask what specific lines are confusing, and if anyone would like to draft better wording with flavor. --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 20:05, 5 August 2013 (UTC)
:The transmutations. Good god, the Transmutations. I can't seem to figure out what's going on there - you need to make it a bit clearer. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 00:30, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
::Better? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 01:27, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

== New New Version ==

Are you done with major changes for a bit? I've been ignoring this since it seemed in pretty severe flux, but if that's calming down I was going to take another look sometime in the next couple of days. And probably take you up on your rewording offer. Would you prefer suggestions on talk or direct editing of the article? - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  23:09, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

:Major changes are done, would prefer suggestions in talk.--[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 23:16, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

::Have you started reviewing the page? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 03:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

:::No. Next couple of days. Godling is next on my list. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  03:33, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

::::Then will remove the Universal Advancement. When do you think you will be looking at it?--[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 04:07, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

:::::Just do whatever you need to do to it, and I'll look at it when I get around to it. Small blocks of time for quick messages I have, larger blocks of time to read and ponder full classes are in shorter supply. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  04:15, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

::::::Added example below. Nothing else to add to class. --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 19:43, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Ok then, let's begin. We'll go piecemeal because of text and occasional mechanical rewrites, and hope that works out ok. Should you question a design decision please ask for additional clarification, but if it's just not to your preference take the parts that you like and leave the rest.

:Edit - it occurs to me that this may have come across a bit more heavy handed than I intended. I'm really not trying to step all over your design and wording choices so much as I'm trying to clarify them, but there's always going to be some of the writer in any suggestion. If anything, think of the stuff below as what I would try doing to meet your design goals, and please complain loudly if I go overboard with the changes or stop meeting your design goals, or just comment a bit if things look good. Silence is hard to read in this medium. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  04:09, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

===Detection===
Let's start here, at the beginning or whatever. The ability encourages you to dumpster dive for your favorite spell on a beneficial list, and I hate that sort of thing. Much better to do the dumpster diving on the design side and just assign the abilities at the levels that you want people to get them. So instead I'd recommend just determining what options are available and then listing them. You can keep the level based format if you want, but it's a VH class and I don't see any reason to keep them from getting 9th level detect spells that you've pre-approved when they're high enough level. The acquisition rate is also uneven, for reasons that I'm not really clear on, but that's a minor gripe. Anyway, I'm going to even that out and roll it together with some really absent fluff and a pre-determined option setup like so:

----

'''{{Anchor|Detection}} {{Sp}}:''' A judge must have sufficient evidence and information about the world and creatures around him to deliver appropriate verdicts and use the laws efficiently. To that end, all judges acquire a number of detection abilities that mimic spells to assist them with their deliberations. Every judge automatically  ''detect magic'' and ''detect poison'' <and whatever else you want to put in here> as well as one other least detection of their choice. They gain additional detections as described below. 

*A judge learns a new least detection at levels 1, 2, and 4.
*A judge learns a new lesser detection at levels 5, 7, and 9. Instead of learning a new lesser detection, they may learn two least detections.
*A judge learns a new greater detection at levels 10, 12, and 14. Instead of learning a new greater detection, they may learn two lesser detections.
*A judge learns a new subpena detection at levels 15, 17, and 19. Instead of learning a new subpena detection, they may learn two greater detections.

A judge may use any detection ability that they know without preparing it ahead of time, but may use no more detection abilities in one day than their Feature Limit. Their options for detection abilities appear below.

:'''Least Detections:''' <these are probably 1st and 2nd level detect spells>
:'''Lesser Detections:''' <these are probably 3rd and 4th level detect spells>
:'''Greater Detections:''' <these are probably 5th and 6th level detect spells>
:'''Subpena Detections:''' <these are probably 7th+ level detect spells. also, the name for this level is dumb and should be changed>

----

:On spell choices
:*Read magic doesn't really do anything for them, and could be removed.
:*Greater status is weird, since it does the same thing as status but allows you to cast spells through the link (that you don't really have). It could be removed.
:*No [[SRD:Detect Thoughts]] as a least or lesser and [[SRD:Brain Spider]] as an epic?
:*Could also do [[SRD:Arcane Sight]] as a lesser or greater and [[SRD:Greater Arcane Sight]] as an epic if you think they fit.
:*Did you see [[Eye of the Gods (3.5e Spell)]] for another epic possibility? And maybe Cid's version of [[Foresight (3.5e Spell)]]? You don't have any other 9th level spells in here though, and that might be the reason you excluded them.
:Otherwise I like your selections and think they're at reasonable levels. You seem to have leaned towards keeping things less crazy on the high end, and that's fine. You need a couple more epic selections though, hence my suggestions for new things. As is they get 3 chances to pick from the 2 that you have on offer. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  04:02, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

::'''Response:''' Language and mind divinations (Comprehend Language, Tongues, Detect Thoughts, Discern Lies, etc.) are not in the selection becouse I did not want this class to be diplomatic – instead a bit apart from party politics. For similar reasons seer spells and abilities are also not listed, to keep it from dealing with gods or the future. The judge only deal with the present and what can be explained. Was looking into high level divinations that are not of either of the four categories (language, mind, future or gods), and their does not appear to be much of a selection – even in homebrew. If you know of any good spells from other books will add, then post the rules of the spells (from other books) in a subpage. Thank you.

===Shape===

'''Rational:''' The standardizations are to reduce calculations: duration/permanency, range, area of effect and Save. However, most shapes could follow a progression like detect (least, lesser, etc.) – ''and'' retain the standardization. There are a few shapes that expand older articles (chill/heat, density, enlarge/reduce) which would need separate consideration. Wood, metal, glass, and gems simplify the more normal shapes (warp wood, shape wood, etc.), and also reduce number of shapes listed. --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 15:25, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

:I don't know that it makes sense to insert that progression here because they're not picking from a list, just getting defined class features. So I'd probably skip it, but go ahead if you want to see how it works out. I don't know that I'll be able to get to a complete going over and text update until tomorrow anyway. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  20:45, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

::Made a couple spells to fill get what was wanted from shape. Now it is much more simplified. Skipping this feature is fine, transmutation has been the real issue of this class from the beginning, and needs to be completely redone.--[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 17:27, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

:::Given that you have a bunch of "select X from Y list" abilities in here now, the detection format makes more sense. I think it might be more clear to do it that way instead after looking it over again. It's somewhat odd since no other class has two selection mechanics like that, but I don't see another way to make it clearer. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  05:00, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

:::[Edit] Getting to trans. Offered rewording advice, and rewording advice or actual text is what I'm going to do. Trans is at the bottom, and I'm happy to save the biggest problem for last ;-) - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  05:09, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

::::Shape altered, only one part of it now has a selection. It would be a lot of abilities to automatically give to players if selection was removed. But, if a major issue, can see removing half and changing it back to the older version. --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 06:29, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

:::::The new format of shape seems fine. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  04:18, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

===Telekinesis===

This is a weird form of the ability. Since you can use objects as weapons, and you can use the ability as a move action, you get move action attacks with this in addition to whatever cool judge stuff you're doing with your standard actions. That probably needs to go. The carrying capacity thing is also weird. Normally carrying too much causes you to get weighed down and suffer slowness and armor check penalties and the like... but I don't see why those things would apply in this case. Some of your use cases are poorly defined as well.

So I'm going to suggest instead a simple call to the SRD Telekinesis, with a DC and range change (because the range was a good call). Something like:

'''{{Anchor|Telekinesis}} {{Ex}}:''' Beginning at 2nd level, a judge can order the laws of reality in such a way as to make objects move without manipulating them directly. They may use [[SRD:Telekinesis|''telekinesis'']] at-will with a caster level equal to their judge level, though only out to medium range (100' + 10'/class level). When used against a creature, the save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 the judge's class level + the judge's intelligence modifier.

The spell covers the sustained force case you wanted, the combat maneuver case you wanted, and adds a violent thrust to hit people with heavy things or fling them back for approaching the bench. It also covers weight scaling already, though you could probably do you own weight scaling if you wanted them using heavier things earlier (I'm not sure it's a good idea though).

===Master of Matter===

The skill bonuses seem entirely unnecessary to me, but it may just be a case of me not seeing the fluff tie for them. It's a skill bonus so I mostly don't care about it, but still, why are they there?

The save bonus is slightly more relevant and not particularly troublesome, but it should probably be on a different attribute. They're going to be stacking Int to the heavens anyway, giving them save bonuses on top of class effectiveness for their trouble seems a bit gauche. I'd prefer if it had some sort of fluff explanation as well, because I don't know why you think it belongs there and it feels off despite being useful. Even something like "As a judge better learns the laws of reality, they gain the ability to exert their will against them to maintain their own integrity. They may add half of their Charisma modifier to all of their saves" would sort of fill the fluff void and sell it better. And I prefer Cha to Wis for this ability, but that may just be a preference for an attribute that isn't doing save boosting duty already. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  04:18, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

:If you're going to stick with Wisdom and add the full modifier to all of their saves, you may want to give them a poor Will save progression instead of the good one. They care about wisdom and get double of it, so the change only means that they have a solid will save instead of a really really great one.

::Would it be better if all judge saves were good, but the added ability bonus was removed? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 17:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

:::You mean the bonus Wis modifier to everything? You could do that I guess, it certainly makes boosting saves harder to pull off. Is there a reason why they should have all good saves though? - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  20:18, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

::::With their control over things, Fort seams the most fitting with Will coming in to resist persuasions. Reflex has a use here in understanding timing and positioning. And certainly a non-ability boost (i.e., +1 to all saves every 5 levels), would be worse. --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 20:27, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

===Transmutation===
Ok, I agree wholeheartedly that this is a huge mess. So we're going full rewrite / reorganization here, and hopefully that works out alright. 

Also, some ability modifying, because basically infinite selectable gems / adamantine at 4 is crazy. And transmuting magic items is sunder levels of dumb when you can just turn them off by modifying the magic in the area. And maintaining the tier thing is kind of asking for tiers for every element (in addition to being weird to begin with). And immediate action transmutations don't need to be a thing. And s

----
'''{{Anchor|Transmute}} {{Ex}}:''' At 3rd level, a judge may issue corrections on the current form of reality, effectively transforming what is into something else. Transmuting requires a standard action, affects a sphere with a radius up to that indicated on the class table above (though the judge may elect to transmute a smaller area), and has a range of up to 400' + 40' / class level. Transmutations of physical objects are instantaneous and may not be dispelled or reversed. These transmutations only affects natural or worked material; they may not directly transmute creatures or magically enchanted material. Transmutations of properties have a duration of 1 minute per class level, and may be resisted with either a Fortitude or Will save (as specified by the category) of DC 10 + 1/2 class level + intelligence modifier. These are also not subject to dispel or reversal, but may be countered by certain spell effects.

A judge may transmute in this way a number of times per day up to their Feature Limit. Initially each step counts as one use against this limit. At 12th level, a judge may transmute two steps as part of the same transmute use, though doing so requires 2 consecutive rounds of standard actions as both transmutations are completed. If the second standard action does not follow on the next round, it is treated as a separate use.

The options available for the transmutation results depends entirely on what is present initially. There are 7 basic categories that a judge can work with: earth, water, air, fire, gravity, time, and magic. If multiple types of material are in the area, only the category selected is affected.

Earth includes dirt/sand, stone, metal, gemstones, and non-living organic material (wood, food, etc.). 
*At 3rd level, a judge may transmute any type of earth into another type of earth (dirt to stone, dirt to metal, metal to wood, etc.), but may not change any earth into gemstones yet. They have no control over the specific form of the result, and transmuting a large pile of sand into metal may provide a large mix of materials.
*At 3rd level, a judge may transmute any type of earth into liquid water or standard fire.
*At 5th level, a judge may specify the type of dirt/sand, stone, or non-living organic material that they create as a result of their transmutation. Thus they could turn pine into cedar, sandstone into marble, or deceased creatures into a delicious feast. Attempting to create or purify food with this ability results in sufficient food for 3d4 meals for a medium creature, +1d4 meals per 2 levels above 5; the excess material is unfit to eat.
*At 5th level, a judge may elect to exclude some types of earth from a transmutation area. They could elect to only transmute the wood in an area to water rather than all of the earth in an area, for example.
*At 9th level, a judge may combine both earth and fire to transmute earth into [[SRD:Environment#Lava Effects|lava]]. Exposure to this lava functions as indicated in the [[SRD:Environment#Lava Effects|SRD]]. Under typical conditions, a thin shell of igneous rock will form over the cooling lava after 2 hours. This shell supports no more than 5 pounds of force, which doubles every hour until the lava is fully cooled after 48 hours. Particularly cold conditions may hurry this process, while particularly hot conditions may extend it indefinitely.
*At 11th level, a judge may specify the metal that they create as a result of their transmutation. No more than 1/100th of their transmutation area may be transmuted into adamantine, mithral, or similar rare metals.
*At 11th level, a judge may transmute metal into gemstones, though the gemstones created may not be specified and are often of poor quality.
*At 15th level, a judge may specify the gemstones that they create as a result of their transmutation, 

Water includes steam, thin and thick liquids (water, oil, acid, jellies), and ice.
*At 3rd level, a judge may transmute any type of water into another type of earth (ice to steam, oil to water, etc.), but may not change any water into jelly, oil, or acid yet.
*At 3rd level, a judge may transmute any type of water into calm air or dirt.
*At 5th level, a judge may transmute water into jelly. This substance grants a +5 bonus to jump checks, but is treated as difficult terrain for the purposes of movement and balance.
*At 7th level, a judge may transmute water into oil. Oil created by this effect functions as that created by the [[SRD:Grease|''grease'']] spell, except that it has no duration.
*At 9th level, a judge may transmute water into [[SRD:Environment#Acid Effects|acid]]. Exposure to this acid function as indicated in the [[SRD:Environment#Acid Effects|SRD]]. Unless contained in a metal or glass container, this acid will be absorbed into its surroundings (damaging them significantly) or evaporate, reducing it's size by 1 foot in radius per hour after creation.

Air Set
*At some levels, gets gust of wind / control winds references (this is instead of the pushing creatures thing, which is weird).

Fire Set
*At some level, gets glass.

And so on. 

Sorry that's not complete, it's taking longer than I thought to write those out and I need to get to other things. But the format and ideas behind them should be clear. I'll give you a bit to think on it and make some changes before I come back to talk about the levels that you're giving things out at. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  06:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

:Fix to, with minor alterations, and reduction in wording. Yes, progression shall be next after transmutation. Originally had it: A) 2, 6, 10, 14 normal transmutations; B) 4, 8, 12 gravity transmutations; C) 10, 14, 16, 18 alignment/magic/time-space transmutations. With odd levels taking one the lesser shape, detect, and other minor abilities. But can see this being changed. However, would like transmutation progression to be separate from all other feature progression in this class. Thank you so much, looks almost complete. Will apologies before-hand for the other two works.--[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 22:13, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

::Awesome, love the new changes you have made. Keep it up. What would clean up the magic type?

::This class has little ability progression after 12th level. (Abet, what it does get is spectacular.) Should there be a new feature at 16th or 20th level?--[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 01:26, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

===Misc===
After the class feature header and before the actual class features you have a note about CL and range.... and it's really really weird. The placement I mean. I'm so used to reading classes that I don't even read that line anymore, because ''no one'' puts actual mechanical information there. So the part where you did that is weird.

The range override is also a bit odd, and needs to go. When you're referencing a spell, the CL line is enough since it will affect the range already. When referencing anything else, you want the range with the ability for ease of lookup. But really, there's no reason to override spell ranges in the first place; ''detect magic'' does not need that sort of range, for example. I'd skip it entirely and just do range lines in abilities as needed. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  05:09, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

:CL and range fixed. Now, only transmute and telekinesis have a range mentioned on this page.--[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 06:29, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

::Another misc thing - the save recommendations under 'abilities' at the top are unnecessary. Pretty much every class needs to buy a cloak of resistance to keep up with caster DCs because of attribute scaling. And getting Con and Wis for saves is similarly standard advice, though the Wis advice is weird given that they already have a good will progression. In general, that section is used only for attributes that are particularly important for the class. And that's mostly Int here, with maybe Cha if the save change goes through (above). The physical attributes don't really do anything because they don't melee or arrow people it seems (except with TK, which doesn't count), so they don't need to get added in. And Wis doesn't do anything special for them... so it doesn't need to be there either. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  04:29, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

== Nolan's Comments ==

This class is much more powerful than ones that I'm used to seeing.<br/>
You give this class twice the skill points per level (4x at first level), compared to what I thought was normal until now.<br/>
After looking at your example of a lv-10 character, it seems that he can do whatever he wants as a free action every round, plus casting his devastatingly powerful spells on his turn. This is a little too much for my taste.<br/>
From a technical standpoint, everything in this class seems to work well enough. In fact, I really like the way you organized the transmutations: earth->water->air->fire->earth, etc. You could call it "The Circle of Alchemy." Now that I think about it, you hinted at this circle a little bit, but I think you should make it explicit from the outset. Your description of this should be right near the top of the section on Transmutations. Also, don't use '=' signs between words. Use arrows '->'. This will make a lot more sense to the technical-minded people reading this.<br/>
So, other than those little complaints, I can tell that you put a crap-ton of work into this class and I, for one, would be proud of it. --[[User:Nolanf|Nolanf]] ([[User talk:Nolanf|talk]]) 21:31, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

:Thank you for the review. Comments and questions:
:1) 4x at first level is standard, and 8+Int is high, but the same as a [[SRD:Rogue|rogue]]. The class being about knowledge and moment, being at the high end fits.
:2) Judge cannot do any judge ability as a free action, and can only do two immediate transmutations each day. As far as doing whatever they want: this is the flavor of the class to an extent. The extent being: a) judge cannot alter living-things (i.e., heal, directly kill, enlarge monster etc.); b) judge cannot alter, speak to, or do any divine actions; c) judge cannot create objects (only transmute and shape them); and d) judge have no social altering abilities (charm person, intimidate, calm emotions, etc.). However, a larger enumeration of what exactly is too much for your taste would help in solving the problems.
:3) Drafting a diagram now which will show the base types, and what can be transmuted - but this will take some time. It is a marvelous idea. Until then, was using the equal sign instead of arrow to signify that a transmutation can go in both directions. Pride is only a comfort to be used when all else fails, and the creator has become stubborn of change. As always, every comment makes you a part of the creation. --Franken Kesey (not logged in)

::I guess what I really felt was too powerful was the Judge's ability to change matter from a long long long distance away. I think that it should be limited to touch or to a short radius. --[[User:Nolanf|Nolanf]] ([[User talk:Nolanf|talk]]) 00:46, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

:::You do not have issue with the range of telekinesis or shape? (Entangle, Pyrotechnics, Control Water, Control Winds, Diminish Plants, Move Earth, Plant Growth, Silent Image, and Control Weather have a range of Long or greater.)

:::What about the range bothers you? The fact that they can attack while still being safe? Ability to control initiative? Is it an issue with flavor (having to transfer the matter between - thus a chain, not simple equation)? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 18:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

::::That never really occurred to me before. I'm learning new things about this game all the time. For instance, in practice, characters are very rarely 400 feet away from the center of the area of their spell, so the "long" range is more or less moot anyway.
::::As for flavor, I've been conditioned that when I see the word "Transmutation," I automatically think of the anime Full Metal Alchemist (I think there's a homebrew class for that [[State_Alchemist_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)|already]] - but don't worry, it's nothing like this). In that cartoon, the alchemists can only transmute by touch. In the months since the last time I posted here, I've changed my position on the whole range issue because I've had more experience with magic users in this game. Now, I think that if a level-4 druid can throw a fireball over 100 feet as a ranged touch attack (pretty powerful, in my opinion), then it's perfectly reasonable that one of your judges should be able to do the things he can do.
::::Speaking of things I like, I noticed the changes you've made to the functionality of Transmutation and I think they're great. It seems complicated at first glance, but it really makes a lot of sense when you get into it. The gravity stuff, especially, would be fun to play around with.
::::I wonder, have you ever had the chance to test this character out in a real game? See how he functions after a few level-ups and how he fares in different environments and conditions? I'm only asking because the engineer in me is a stickler for testing things thoroughly. --[[User:Nolanf|Nolanf]] ([[User talk:Nolanf|talk]]) 06:01, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

:::::The balance ranges on this wiki, low, moderate, high and very high, attempt to correct the inherent imbalance of most dnd games. A monk is really fun to play in combat, but for most of the town and character creation their options are highly limited. Thus the idea here is for people to play classes of similar power (for example, a [[Tenken (3.5e Class)|Tenken]], or variant, works better when playing with spellcasters).
:::::As far as testing this class, I have attempted to bring it into two different campaigns. Both failed due to reasons outside of this class (both GMs had to cut the game short). I will let you know if I get a proper testing of this class - and any other of my material. What is more probable to happen is I will GM a campaign and use mostly all my own material. Then see how a vivika, judge, and dream lord interact. Let me know how the dream lord has worked for you when you get a chance.--[[Special:Contributions/24.156.121.36|24.156.121.36]] 20:22, 20 October 2013 (UTC)

== Name ==

If this is supposed to be in the main nav, it needs to have a better name rather than be a subpage of a class that is also in the main nav. Else you need to remove the User category from the page. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  21:06, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

:How do you remove the user category? --[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 21:12, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

::At the bottom of the page, delete <nowiki>[[Category:User]]</nowiki> - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup>  22:22, 29 July 2013 (UTC)