View source for User talk:Franken Kesey/DPR (3.5e Guide)

== Ratings ==
{{Rating |rater=Leziad
|rating=oppose
|reason=I am not sure what this guide is supposed to achieve except highlighting extremely basic optimization, which have been shown to have been wrong multiple time. We are introduced with a very vague concept of DPR, coming from incomplete build and with information that could be much more accurate.

The introduction and the Basic Principles section are uninformative at best, alas it hold 90% of the information this guide has. Prioritize hitting over damage boost (hello power attack!), use allies and quickened buff to maximize that vague golden goose that is DPR. No other information of note on being a useful party member, or positioning or anything except dice rolling. This part also has deceptive information, saying 18-20/x2 is better than 20/x3, implying those are equivalents (it should be 20/x4). Overall this isn't great.

The nest section is Bonuses, it bad. Like actually show no knowledge of optimization, the author had to be corrected several times on things like Expansion. The author prioritize TWF which is historically poor optimization instead of Two-handed with power attack. The author also recommend avoiding the party-wide bless buff, which is very powerful and low level and the extremely powerful hustle power. That alongside past mistake (expansion, stacking enhancement, etc) is making me think that the author know little on how optimize a psionic character.

The guide also a bit obsessed with crit, while keen is good a lot of monsters are immune to cit. Maybe he could have added ways around such immunities if the author recommended keen, improved critical and whatnot so highly. But none of this actually useful information is to be found anywhere.

This guide provide mediocre to bad advice with some mathematics formula that frankly only show a meaningless theoretical damage output. It does not even act as stepping stone in optimization, if a would-be optimizer read this and took it seriously he would probably become less knowledgeable about making good combat characters. This is why I can only give a 0 to this guide, it doing the complete reverse of what it should do.}}
{{Rating |rater=Undead Knave
|rating=oppose
|reason=<s>While I agree with Surgo on the pointlessness of this, perhaps my bigger concern is the stacking of sources which don't stack, which shows a lack of understanding - or simply uncaringness - of the rules.  On the Psychic Stalker, for example, there are three sources of enhancement bonuses stacking for attack and damage (Balanced Wealth, Manifest Blade, and Metaphysical Weapon).  Additionally, for the classes with limited resources per day, the amount of novaing to maintain some of these uses are staggering.  Again going with the Psychic Stalker - which has as many power points as the psion - to get the damage listed per round needs to use 164 of their 343 power points granted by class.  Even counting for the extra power points granted by having a high ability score and the lack of need to cast many of the powers twice (or once because they don't stack), you still only have 3 rounds of (well below) the listed DPR before you're essentially just a worse Rogue.

And that's not even the best way to kill things with the class, so good job; you're wrong and inefficient.

Also, if you take a round to prep to get the DPR you're wanting, you don't double it.  You halve it.</s>

Entirely rewriting the rating because I don't care to adjust things right now (it's been a long week).  I still entirely agree with Surgo's take that this is unnecessary.  It also still has problems with the math involved, such as trying to claim that crit width is better than crit height exclusively because unequal numbers are unequal.

There's also the issue of it exclusively focusing on the idea of two-weapon fighting melee combatants, entirely writing off every other type of major damage dealer, such as spellcasters and two-handed power attackers (historically the biggest sources of damage per round), and always assuming you can get off a full attack every round - something that anyone who has played 3.5 can attest to being a vast overestimate.

Also, hustle is crazy great explicitly for making that overestimate a reality, but is listed as a power to avoid at all costs for some reason.
}}
{{Rating |rater=Ghostwheel
|rating=oppose
|reason=What Surgo said.
}}
{{Rating |rater=Surgo
|rating=oppose
|reason=Pointless "guide" that is wrong wrong WRONG. Kesey knows next to nothing about optimization, makes basic 3.5 errors (he thought enhancement bonuses STACKED, wtf) and extremely obvious math errors (19-20/x2 is not better than 20/x3, they have THE EXACT SAME EXPECTED DAMAGE). This guide is not only pointless, you'll actually be less informed after reading it.
}}

Added significant info about the classes, plus math.--Franken Kesey 09:14, 1 May 2019 (MDT)

: The info about the classes can be gleaned by just looking at their tables... [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] ([[User talk:Surgo|talk]]) 10:29, 1 May 2019 (MDT)


:Undead Knave, much is explained in the hidden math. For example, damage is already halved for classes with prep, thus damage in buffed round is found by doubling.
:#Missed the weapon of energy in last edit. Removed it from all the others. Thank you for catching that.
:#Where does it say you cannot stack damage from different powers?
:#With the weapon of energy removed, a 20th level psychic stalker uses 51 power points to fully buff. Not 164. While, 51 is significant, it is only 15% of there daily total (not even including daily bonuses).
:#Prep rounds were designed to be no more than one round (with quickened powers). Again, will remove the weapon of energy (+1d6 is not worth much). Do not see where you are getting the three prep rounds from.
:#There are many ways to defeat an opponent outside of damage. However, it is difficult to know how each method compares to another, because they are situational. Further, most of the listed classes are in the High balance range with things like rogue. A rogue's main power is sneak attack. Thus they mostly win by attrition.
:#In next edit, will have math reviled to reduce confusion.--Franken Kesey 17:40, 6 May 2019 (MDT)

::#I never said anything about weapon of energy.
::#[[SRD:Modifiers#Stacking|Oh, I don't know,]] [[SRD:Modifiers#Enhancement_Bonus|pages 171-172 of the PHB?]]  My favorite part of it for this conversation: "More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above). For example, the enhancement bonus to Strength from a bull’s strength spell and the enhancement bonus to Strength from a divine power spell don’t stack. You use whichever bonus gives you the better Strength score. In the same way, a belt of giant Strength gives you an enhancement bonus to Strength, which does not stack with the bonus you get from a bull’s strength spell."
::#You have the Psychic Stalker using a fully augmented Pyrokinetic Strike on every attack in a full attack.  That's 20 pp per attack with 6 attacks per round.  That's 120 pp a round ignoring everything else.
::#I never said it took 3 prep rounds.  I said you'd only get three rounds of the max damage using these tactics.  Very different things.
::#First of all, (just under) half of the things listed are VH rather than H.  Second, Rogues don't win by attrition.  They win by dealing massive spike damage ''with party support.'' 
::But please, keep putting words in my mouth when there's written proof of all the points brought up.  --[[User:Undead Knave|Undead_Knave]] ([[User talk:Undead Knave|talk]]) 22:02, 6 May 2019 (MDT)

:::Reworking the math, but the stuff above example section is completely new.--Franken Kesey 12:03, 8 May 2019 (MDT)

::::Removed examples, now it is just a guide with principles and bonuses.--Franken Kesey 20:49, 10 May 2019 (MDT)

:::::@Surgo, 19-20/2 can be enchanted with keen to increase range to 17-20. Which means that 20% of the time you crit. Meanwhile, 20/x3 with a keen enchantment only triples damage 10% of the time. Critical hits with higher probability are better.--Franken Kesey 21:14, 10 May 2019 (MDT)

:::::: Try turning on a calculator. You are wrong to an embarrassing degree. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] ([[User talk:Surgo|talk]]) 21:26, 10 May 2019 (MDT)

{{ri}}

19-20/x2 is equivalent to .1x2 which equals .2

20/x3 is equivalent to .05x3 which equals .15

19-20/x2 is better. With keen the variance increases.--Franken Kesey 21:34, 10 May 2019 (MDT)

: Open up a calculator. Calculate the expected values. This is just embarrassing to watch. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] ([[User talk:Surgo|talk]]) 21:35, 10 May 2019 (MDT)

::Just did and proved you wrong. With keen equivalent to .4 (whereas, 20/x3 is equivalent to .3).--Franken Kesey 21:39, 10 May 2019 (MDT)

::: Calculate. The. Expected. Value. If you don't know what that is, go take a class in probability. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] ([[User talk:Surgo|talk]]) 21:45, 10 May 2019 (MDT)

::::Expected Value is the average, for example d20 has an average of 10.5. But only a few numbers are a critical hit (19-20 or just 20 in the above examples). Thus since each number has a 5% chance of being rolled in any single roll crits with larger ranges have higher chances of being rolled.--Franken Kesey 21:57, 10 May 2019 (MDT)

::::: Now that you've shown to understand the basic concept, go take a calculator and calculate the expected value of the damage of a 1d8 weapon with 19-20/x2, and a 1d8 weapon with 20/x3. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] ([[User talk:Surgo|talk]]) 22:01, 10 May 2019 (MDT)

4.5 (1d8) x .1 (19-20) x2 = .9

4.5 (1d8) x .05 (20) x3 = .68

Still less.--Franken Kesey 22:08, 10 May 2019 (MDT)

: That is not the expected value of damage. Expected value of a distribution includes every value in the distribution. You, for whatever reason, only included the critical ones. Your calculation of the x3 is thus wrong. It should be: 4.5 x (.05 x3 + .05 x1), which equals 0.9 -- exactly the same as the 19-20/x2 examples. Remember, the 20/x3 can roll a 19 on the die and do damage as well. (Strictly speaking you'd need to include the results of 1-18 as well but they are the same for both sides and thus cancel out). [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] ([[User talk:Surgo|talk]]) 22:15, 10 May 2019 (MDT)

::Was only including crit material in comparison, but forgot that the non-critical 19 in second example still does some damage. Advise starting with that next time. Redid the math, 18-20/x2 is better than 20x3 (but equal to 20x4) in DPR. However, the probability for rolling 19-20 is 10% (20% with keen), meanwhile, 20 is only 5%.--Franken Kesey 22:31, 10 May 2019 (MDT)

::: Keen changes nothing. A 20/x3 with keen and a 19-20/x2 with keen have equivalent expected damage. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] ([[User talk:Surgo|talk]]) 22:39, 10 May 2019 (MDT)

::::For DPR they are the same. For general probability of rolling a crit 19-20 is better. Also changed the page to 18-20/x2 > 20/x3.--Franken Kesey 22:46, 10 May 2019 (MDT)

:::::You are correct that 18-20/x2 is mathematically superior to 20/x3.  That's because it's mechanically identical to 20/x4.  That's exactly like saying that 20/x4 is superior to 19-20/x2.  But please, keep being wrong.  It isn't at all getting people unnecessarily frustrated with dealing with you.  --[[User:Undead Knave|Undead_Knave]] ([[User talk:Undead Knave|talk]]) 15:13, 11 May 2019 (MDT)

::::::@Undead Knave, the page mentions that hustle gives a benefit to move actions. However if you do not need the extra move action it is a wasted power. This even more the case if you need the swift action to activate a feature or use a quickened power.--Franken Kesey 16:05, 11 May 2019 (MDT)

{{ri}}

I guess it's a good thing you never need to use a move action to,  like...

I dunno...

Move?  So you can full attack?  Because otherwise all your TWF melee people have a single attack rather than, like, 6?  --[[User:Undead Knave|Undead_Knave]] ([[User talk:Undead Knave|talk]]) 19:17, 11 May 2019 (MDT)

:In certain builds it is good. While others you need the swift action for a quickened power or to manifest Lions Charge or Manifest Blade. It depends on what your character does. However, since hustle only last one round it is far inferior to haste. Haste is an amazing power. Hustle is generally a waste of time (with only a few exceptions).--Franken Kesey 19:55, 11 May 2019 (MDT)

::Haste is an amazing spell.  That doesn't give you a move action, so if you have to move more than 5', you can't get a full attack off.  So you get 1 attack as a standard action.

::They're different abilities that give different benefits.  Just because a higher level effect is great doesn't mean a lower level effect isn't also great.  --[[User:Undead Knave|Undead_Knave]] ([[User talk:Undead Knave|talk]]) 20:16, 11 May 2019 (MDT)

== What's the point of this? ==

This page isn't exactly discoverable, and in most cases the synergy is pretty minor. What is this page for? [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] ([[User talk:Surgo|talk]]) 07:51, 30 April 2019 (MDT)

:Noticed a few classes meld standard classes, thus aggregated them here (much like the limb manifesto). This is easily discoverable in the Character Optimization section under Guides, in fact it is the 2nd on the list. Plan to add other classes and synergized articles to it. If you find others you are welcome to add.--Franken Kesey 08:03, 30 April 2019 (MDT)

::I understand the ''what'', I'm asking about the ''why''. [[User:Surgo|Surgo]] ([[User talk:Surgo|talk]]) 08:07, 30 April 2019 (MDT)

:::The title of this subject and your initial question (which you wrote) literally is '''what'''. Regardless, can also answer why. If a user was looking for a theme of synergized classes they can find them all here. This is the point of optimized guides, a place to find about a thematic group like spells that fvcking kill people. Spells that fvcking kill people did not create new material, it only aggregated and grouped what was already in existence.--Franken Kesey 08:18, 30 April 2019 (MDT)

::::Changed the focus of this page to compare DPR of classes.--Franken Kesey 09:20, 4 May 2019 (MDT)

::::: Yeah, that's also pointless. There are so many different choices apart from class that this doesn't make for anything useful unless you just want to know what does the most damage, and at that point I'd point you towards the Tome Samurai and be done with it, or something similar. DPS of a specific class in a vacuum can be used to try to argue for a certain balance range, but this on its own is quite pointless. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 10:15, 4 May 2019 (MDT)

== Benchmarks ==

Optimization is the process of putting various pieces together to create something greater than the sum of its parts. Simply showing benchmarks of classes does not do very much to further the case of this page, as it doesn't add anything substantial for its reason of existence. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 01:06, 1 May 2019 (MDT)

:Want to have a list of all classes that synergize standardized classes. Doubt that this is all of them here (will add on finding others). DPR is the easiest and fairest way to compare the different classes. This is a guide, not an optimized build. There is a difference.--Franken Kesey 07:32, 1 May 2019 (MDT)