While unnecessary, I would like for some of my articles to have ratings. The articles that I find ready for said endeavour endeavor are as follows: [[Sith/ Jedi (3.5e Class)]], [[Viveka Spectre (3.5e Prestige Class)]], and [[Uongo-mijusi (3.5e Race)]](and some of its sub-pages). Then again, you may find some or all of those mentioned to be unworthy of your rating. In which case any advice would be most appreciated. :New request for the following pages: [[Intelligent Item (3.5e Class)]], [[Judge of Existence (3.5e Class)]], [[Dream Lord (3.5e Prestige Class)]], [[Sedah’s Counterspell of Superfluous Detail (3.5e Spell)]].--[[User:Franken Kesey|Franken Kesey]] ([[User talk:Franken Kesey|talk]]) 06:33, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

::== WTH Mogeko deletion == Was my Mogeko stuff seriously that bad?!? The original material addressed rape themes, but I did try to keep them beneath the surface in those articles, and I'm pretty sure they were buried deep enough. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 02:09, 29 October 2015 (UTC) :It was nowhere near buried. It was thoroughly exposed. The way that you used euphemisms and double entendres in your fluff did not demurely hide the subject matter -- it highlighted it and made it come across as a joke. :But even if the fluff had been pristine and mature, hinting obliquely and respectfully at the theme, it's just not cool to make a player class with combat abilities centered around the concept of rape. If you want to ''delicately'' touch on that very sensitive subject, that's artistically valid -- but don't gamify it or turn it into an amusement. --[[User:DanielDraco|DanielDraco]] ([[User talk:DanielDraco|talk]]) 02:22, 29 October 2015 (UTC) ::The Mogeko Snatcher's class abilities were never really centered around rape; the focus was on hunting, stalking, kidnapping, and grappling, with the implication that rape was a potential end result. There was ''one'' class feature that could explicitly be taken as tentacle rape, which I took out when the page got community opposed, and later reworked into a form that ''could'' be interpreted as tentacle rape, but could just as easily be interpreted as the tentacles secreting some sort of mindrending slime or just being ''really'' unpleasant to be wrapped up in. ::As I said on the Mogeko Snatcher talk page, <u>Mogeko Castle</u> is a horror game. You're ''supposed'' to be horrified by the Mogekos. The intent was for the Mogeko Snatcher (and the Mogeko race in general) to be a villain that the PCs ''really'' want to kill. Being delicate would kind of have defeated the point. Still, I was seriously trying to make the articles more appropriate, so I'd have appreciated it if you told me what to cut instead of deleting them with zero warning. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 13:05, 29 October 2015 (UTC) :::Luigi, you're a cool guy, but... I gotta call you out on this. >.> "Not centered around rape" and "horror game". And also what to cut, but I'll get to that. For the first part, all I have to say is "link to the definition of child molesting". Yeah, you're not gonna pass that when that was there. :::So, fun fact, I decided to look into this game Megeko Castle. Found an entire Let's Play actually. I watched it. It's not subtle. If it's horror, it's either bad horror or horrible simply for the subject matter. It's about as much of a horror game as FATAL is horror. I think you're confusing horror with horrible, and I stand by my previous judgement of "these are shitty Moogles". :::I understand my opinion is subjective, but I feel I can objectively say that the entirety of what defines Megekos are "shitty rapist moogles". When you have a source material like that... well, this is why I wasn't able to help you. No matter what mechanical or fluff changes I did, you were still trying to convert shitty rapist moogles. The source is crap. Let me put it in another way... FATAL has a bunch of items, such as the Armor of Jewy Jewishness, or the Womb Dagger which is as horrible as it sounds. I ''could'' convert it to D&D, but no matter how much I put makeup on this pig, if its anything related to the source material it's still gonna be inappropriate tasteless trash. The best you can do, dare I say the only thing I think you can do, it make fun of it. Which is what was done with the InDenial FATALite, portrayed in the view that this is something to be ridiculed and not taken seriously. And even then, it's a thin line one has to balance. That kind of humor is difficult to pull off. :::So while I would help, I simply can't. I find the source material irredeemable, squicky, and very clearly fetish material. I can't make that funny, much less make it a funny race. You would have had a bit more chance with pulling them off as monsters, since then you don't need to deal with the fact a PC would have to deal with the fact his kind are child molesters, and that's their only trick. Given your last edit, about them being monsters... yes, that's exactly where you should have started. :::I'm trying to help you understand man. Even if you don't understand what I'm saying, then maybe at least you can trust others judgment. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] ([[User talk:Eiji-kun|talk]]) 13:27, 29 October 2015 (UTC) ::::That's where the [[Mogeko Sage (3.5e Racial Paragon Class)|Mogeko Sage]] was supposed to come in! Even some of the Mogekos are disgusted with the antics of their kin! Pretty much the whole point of a Mogeko campaign would be forcing the Mogekos to clean up their act. And playing as a Mogeko would be little different from playing as a kobold, or a goblin, or any other traditionally evil race; not being trusted by NPCs and having to work to shrug off your species' reputation and rise above it. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 13:44, 29 October 2015 (UTC) :::::Hipster drows did it before it was cool. (•_•) ( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) :::::But seriously, that's been done. There's obviously drow and Drizzt, the noble forms of orc, more friendly forms of kobolds, and even a canonical redeemed illithid and paladin succubus! It can be done certainly. Drow are known for being backstabbers. Orcs are just violent brutes. Kobolds and goblins are untrustworthy thieves. Illithids are amoral and alien. And succubi are predators. You'll notice none of them, not even the being made of evil and built for sex, is about being a rapist. Like it or not, people tend to be much harder on rape, and double for underaged rape. When the "evil social background" your future Drizzt is fighting against is child rape instead of being violent or untrustworthy, it's a completely different tier of seriousness. :::::Violence is part of the game. Rape isn't. By the sheer existence of the race, the DM must deal with not only there being a group of shitty rapist moogles in their world, but also deal with explaining this evil when it comes up. And they will, because that's the point, right? Otherwise you're just furry cat thing. :::::Here's a challenge. Does the race have any defining traits besides "shitty rapist moogles"? Worship of ham is excluded, that's not a defining trait, that's a footnote at best. :::::I'll take on my own challenge too. "Drows: Underground elves who like spiders.", "Orc: Constantly given the short end of the stick.", "Kobolds: Small and craven.", "Goblins: Kobolds but green people.", "Illithids: Smart time traveling aliens.", "Succubi: Deceivers and corrupters." Can you do it? -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] ([[User talk:Eiji-kun|talk]]) 14:07, 29 October 2015 (UTC) ::::::Yeah, I think I can. "Mogekos: Immoral hedonistic catlike creatures with no respect for others' boundaries." It implies that they're rapists, but not blatantly so. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 14:24, 29 October 2015 (UTC) :::::::That's... not it. :::::::That's a better way of saying it, but that's the same racial gimmick as before. What are they BESIDES beings who can't keep their hands off you? Case in point: drows are backstabbers. They also have other traits. They like spiders. They live underground. They're light sensitive. They are magic resistant. These are all viable ways of defining what drow do. So what else do the Megeko do besides get gropy? -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] ([[User talk:Eiji-kun|talk]]) 14:32, 29 October 2015 (UTC) ::::::::Mogekos are hilariously inept at being gropy. They're idiotic, easily distracted, easily killed with just a big knife, and only a major threat in massive numbers (with the exceptions of Moge-ko &mdash; who's really only half-Mogeko when you think about it &mdash; and King mogeko, who has near-godlike power). Mogekos also love all sorts of foods &mdash; prosciutto's just the standout example. And they have extremely quick tempers, and pick fights at the drop of a hat. Mogekos are also extreme conformists who are attempting to act as "a single entity", to the point of executing those who don't fit in. Mogekos have all sorts of quirks besides their excessive love of high school girls. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 14:43, 29 October 2015 (UTC) (RESET INDENT) "They're idiots" is closer. Anything else, these are slim pickings. The other traits, such as "dies to knife" isn't remarkable. Everyone dies to knife, even dragons (you just need enough knife).  Look, I see three traits so far. "Dumb", "swarming/pack mentality", "quick to anger". If you want to build a Megeko race, you build it around this. Don't even touch the culture of molestation yet. In fact, leave the molesting part far far away. Stick it in a footnote of a footnote in the culture section. "These are cat creatures who are dumb, work in numbers, and quick to anger. Here are the mechanics. Culture: Their culture is the worst thing ever. A few have escaped the madness." You have a direct contraction in there though. "Extreme conformists" and "they have all sorts of quirks". They're kind of polar opposites. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] ([[User talk:Eiji-kun|talk]]) 14:51, 29 October 2015 (UTC) :"Quirky" and "conformists" aren't contradictions, since a lot of their quirks apply to the race as a whole. Also, they're idiots and quasi-imaginary on top of that. A lot of what they do makes no sense. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 15:17, 29 October 2015 (UTC) ::I'm catching up on a full day of conversation, so I'm reaching back a bit with some of these responses. Bear with me. ::Hunting, stalking, capturing, and grappling are all perfectly fine concepts in isolation. The rapey theme put all of those in context, and made them totally not okay. ::"There was one class feature that could explicitly be taken as tentacle rape". That's one too many. ::"...and later reworked into a form that could be interpreted as tentacle rape". That's still one too many. ::"Mogeko Castle is a horror game." This is no defense. It's entirely possible that Mogeko Castle is equally tasteless. Or maybe it approached the same themes, but treated them more appropriately. ::"I'd have appreciated it if you told me what to cut instead of deleting them with zero warning". I think I speak for everyone when I say we regret that the baby had to be thrown out with the bathwater, but that bathwater just shouldn't have been there to begin with. Lez has extended the offer to help you retrieve the inoffensive portions of your work, and I'd like to repeat that here -- we want to help you make good material, but this was an extreme case which called for immediate action. Waiting for a democratic process to move such patently offensive material to another part of the wiki was simply not the appropriate course. ::"That's where the Mogeko Sage was supposed to come in!" And you'll note that nobody objects to that page, even though the concept of rape also underlies that fluff (in that the sage is protesting against its kin's rapiness). The treatment of the subject matter is less flippant, less wink-wink nudge-nudge, less "here are some mechanics to help you rape better". ::"playing as a Mogeko would be little different from playing as a kobold, or a goblin, or any other traditionally evil race". Yes, and here's another similarity: orcs also rape people. They're savage, tribal, territorial, brutish barbarians who are constantly raiding and invading. Rape is a given. I'll put money on that being at least part of why half-orcs were ever even thought of. But this is not the focus of their portrayal in the canon. If it has even been mentioned, it would have been alongside other horrors of war. It has certainly not ever been the focus of a published prestige class, and nobody would have used jocular euphemisms to describe it. ::'"Mogekos: Immoral hedonistic catlike creatures with no respect for others' boundaries." It implies that they're rapists, but not blatantly so.' You don't think that's blatant? O_o ::"hilariously inept at being gropy". Hilariously? The way they bumble about sexual assault is funny? The framework you're using to think about this is all wrong. --[[User:DanielDraco|DanielDraco]] ([[User talk:DanielDraco|talk]]) 00:08, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

:::It was nowhere near buried"Also, they're idiots and quasi-imaginary on top of that. It was thoroughly exposedA lot of what they do makes no sense. The way " In that you used euphemisms case, how would they even survive as a species? As much as D&D does not conform to reality, almost always it is internally consistent (which is what maintains suspension of reality), and double entendres in your fluff did even the concept of these creatures does not demurely hide seem internally consistent to the subject matter rest of the world-- it highlighted it virtually any world in which D&D is played, except perhaps for some distant reach of the Plane of Madness, and made it come across as in that case, they should probably be a monster instead of a jokeplayer race, since those generally don't play well in groups.--[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 01:22, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

:::But even :Yes, I would appreciate it if I could get the fluff had been pristine contents of those articles as soon as possible so I can patch them up and mature, hinting obliquely and respectfully at excise the theme, it's just not cool to make a player class with combat abilities centered around the concept of rape. If I would have made a genuine effort to do that beforehand if you want had told me up front that you were going to delete them if I didn't, but instead, you deleted them without giving me any notice whatsoever! There were no hints that the articles were going to be deleted, so I got no chance to back up the data, and I'delicately'' touch on m hurt, insulted, and angry about that very sensitive subject, ! I recognize that's artistically valid -- but I don't gamify have much in the way of tact, but seriously, I work hard on my stuff, and just completely undoing all my hard work without letting me salvage it or turn it into an amusement. is '''not cool!''' --[[User:DanielDracoLuigifan18|DanielDracoLuigifan18]] ([[User talk:DanielDracoLuigifan18|talk]]) 02:2257, 29 30 October 2015 (UTC)

::::The Mogeko Snatcher's class abilities were never really centered around rape; the focus was on hunting, stalking, kidnapping, and grappling, with the implication that rape was a potential end result. There was ''one'' class feature that could explicitly be taken as tentacle rape, which :I took out when the page got community opposed, and later reworked into a form that ''could'' be interpreted as tentacle rape, but could just as easily be interpreted as emailed the tentacles secreting some sort of mindrending slime or just being ''really'' unpleasant contents to be wrapped up inyou.[[User:Surgo|Surgo]] ([[User talk:Surgo|talk]]) 03:03, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

::::As :: So did I said on the Mogeko Snatcher talk page, <u>Mogeko Castle</u> is a horror game. You're ''supposed'' to be horrified by the Mogekos. The intent was for the Mogeko Snatcher (and the Mogeko race in general) to be a villain that the PCs ''really'' want to kill. Being delicate would kind of have defeated the pointabout half an hour ago. Still, I was seriously trying to make the articles more appropriate, so Well doublevision I'd have appreciated it if you told me what to cut instead of deleting them with zero warningguess. --[[User:Luigifan18Leziad|Luigifan18Leziad]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18Leziad|talk]]) 1303:0507, 29 30 October 2015 (UTC)

:::::Luigi:::All right, you're a cool guy, butthanks... I gotta call you out Will get to work on this. >.> "Not centered around removing the rape" and "horror game"ASAP. And also what to cut, but (Please let me know if it's not cleaned up well enough; I'll get m about to go to that. For the first partbed, all so I have to say is "link to the definition of child molesting"might miss some spots. Yeah) --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 03:14, you're not gonna pass that when that was there.30 October 2015 (UTC)

:::::I understand my opinion is subjective, but I feel I can objectively say that the entirety of what defines Megekos are "shitty rapist moogles". When you have a source material like that... well, this is why I wasn't able to help you. No matter what mechanical or fluff changes I did, you were still trying to convert shitty rapist moogles. The source is crap. Let me put it in another way... FATAL has a bunch of items, such as the Armor of Jewy Jewishness, or the Womb Dagger which is as horrible as it sounds. I ''could'' convert it to D&D, but no matter how much I put makeup on this pig, if its anything related to the source material it's still gonna be inappropriate tasteless trash. The best you can do, dare I say the only thing I think you can do, it make fun of it. Which is what was done with the InDenial FATALite, portrayed in the view that this is something to be ridiculed and not taken seriously. And even then, it's a thin line one has to balance. That kind of humor is difficult to pull off{{BlockNotice|Fixed Bonus Types (3.5e Variant Rule)}}

You should come hang out more on there :::::I'm trying to help you understand man. Even if you don't understand what I'm saying, then maybe at least you can trust others judgment. -) -- [[User:Eiji-kunGhostwheel|Eiji-kunGhostwheel]] ([[User talk:Eiji-kunGhostwheel|talk]]) 1315:2747, 29 October 2015 30 May 2017 (UTCMDT)

::::::That's where the [[Mogeko Sage (3.5e Racial Paragon Class)|Mogeko Sage]] was supposed to come in== High five! Even some of the Mogekos are disgusted with the antics of their kin! Pretty much the whole point of a Mogeko campaign would be forcing the Mogekos to clean up their act. And playing as a Mogeko would be little different from playing as a kobold, or a goblin, or any other traditionally evil race; not being trusted by NPCs and having to work to shrug off your species' reputation and rise above it. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 13:44, 29 October 2015 (UTC)==

Nukes deployed, thanks for the spam slam. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] ([[User talk:Eiji-kun|talk]]) 09:::::Hipster drows did it before it was cool. (•_•) ( •_•)>⌐■-■ 08, 24 June 2017 (⌐■_■MDT)

:[https://media.giphy.com/media/6yKquSnGwI5Ak/giphy.gif 😎😎😎] --[[User:DanielDraco|DanielDraco]] ([[User talk:DanielDraco|talk]]) 11:::But seriously, that's been done. There's obviously drow and Drizzt, the noble forms of orc, more friendly forms of kobolds00, and even a canonical redeemed illithid and paladin succubus! It can be done certainly. Drow are known for being backstabbers. Orcs are just violent brutes. Kobolds and goblins are untrustworthy thieves. Illithids are amoral and alien. And succubi are predators. You'll notice none of them, not even the being made of evil and built for sex, is about being a rapist. Like it or not, people tend to be much harder on rape, and double for underaged rape. When the "evil social background" your future Drizzt is fighting against is child rape instead of being violent or untrustworthy, it's a completely different tier of seriousness.24 June 2017 (MDT)

:::::::Violence is part of the game. Rape isn't. By the sheer existence of the race, the DM must deal with not only there being a group of shitty rapist moogles in their world, but also deal with explaining this evil when it comes up. And they will, because that's the point==Racism, right? Otherwise you're just furry cat thingetc.==

This page is racist [[User:Cedric/typecasting]], this page is homophobic [[User:Cedric/Færy]], this page is transphobic [[User:Cedric/Feywild]], and this page is sexist and idiotic [[User::::Here's a challengeCedric/sex]]. Does By keeping these articles on the race have any defining traits besides "shitty rapist moogles"? Worship of ham wiki, they are being endorsed. This is excludeda D&D wiki, that's not a defining traitnazi wiki. This wiki should not be associated with white supremacy!--Franken Kesey 04:38, that's a footnote at best.3 April 2019 (MDT)

:::::::==Adopted Evil Clown==Wanted to let you know that I'll take adopted your [[Evil Clown (3.5e Class)]] (pursuant to your approval on my own challenge too23 October 2016). "Drows: Underground elves who like spiders."I filled in fluff, improved some tables, "Orc: Constantly given the short end of the stick."cleaned up wording, "Kobolds: Small and cravenadded a few features to it.", "Goblins: Kobolds but green peopleI kept the original features in it.", "IllithidsI will keep it the same as your original intent: Smart time traveling aliensA child's nightmare.", "Succubi: Deceivers and corrupters." Can you do it? -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] ([[User talkFranken Kesey 19:Eiji-kun|talk]]) 14:0718, 29 October 2015 15 May 2019 (UTCMDT)