Difference between revisions of "Talk:Archaeologist (Pathfinder Class)"

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::#'''Clever Explorer''' seems fine, though a bit unneeded since in general it's very easy to boost skills if you really need it. Plus you're kinda stepping hard on the rogue's toes. '''Danger Sense''' looks fine. Very Indiana Jones-y. '''Whip Mastery''': Yep.
 
::#'''Clever Explorer''' seems fine, though a bit unneeded since in general it's very easy to boost skills if you really need it. Plus you're kinda stepping hard on the rogue's toes. '''Danger Sense''' looks fine. Very Indiana Jones-y. '''Whip Mastery''': Yep.
 
::#'''It Belongs in a Museum''' is waaaay powerful since you can effectively stack things tons of times, especially what with wealth being a river (craft items, trade them for super-bonuses). Imagine +10 to AC and saves, or an ability score, or 10 bonus feats, and so on. At the very least, make them not stack, and expect the entire list (up to artifacts) to eventually be added to the character. Take that into account on how much power the class should have. I would also bump '''Pistol Training''' up to level 5 to put it at the same level as the Gunslinger, but honestly with '''Encyclopedic Knowledge''' it's unneeded, and the combination of the two plus gaining all the Gunslinger's tricks makes this power creep compared to the Gunslinger.
 
::#'''It Belongs in a Museum''' is waaaay powerful since you can effectively stack things tons of times, especially what with wealth being a river (craft items, trade them for super-bonuses). Imagine +10 to AC and saves, or an ability score, or 10 bonus feats, and so on. At the very least, make them not stack, and expect the entire list (up to artifacts) to eventually be added to the character. Take that into account on how much power the class should have. I would also bump '''Pistol Training''' up to level 5 to put it at the same level as the Gunslinger, but honestly with '''Encyclopedic Knowledge''' it's unneeded, and the combination of the two plus gaining all the Gunslinger's tricks makes this power creep compared to the Gunslinger.
:::This is the other one I knew would open up a lot of balance issues.  I had intended this to only apply to items found while on a campaign.  Not crafted stuff and not stuff bought with treasure.  The bonuses are (except for the last two) rather minor compared to what is given up.  I mean if you come across a +4 Belt of Physical Perfection are you going to trade in a +4 in STR, DEX & CON for a +2 in one ability score?  Unless someone is really abusing the system (putting limits on how items can be found will help stop that) I highly doubt that every bonus will be taken at every level.  And it puts everything in the control of the DM as far as which items are found in the course of the campaign.  I can put the ability a little later too so bonuses won't accumulate as much.  I think I'm most skeptical of the two artifact bonuses and I'd appreciate some ideas for replacement bonuses there.  18:06, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
+
:::This is the other one I knew would open up a lot of balance issues.  I had intended this to only apply to items found while on a campaign.  Not crafted stuff and not stuff bought with treasure.  The bonuses are (except for the last two) rather minor compared to what is given up.  I mean if you come across a +4 Belt of Physical Perfection are you going to trade in a +4 in STR, DEX & CON for a +2 in one ability score?  Unless someone is really abusing the system (putting limits on how items can be found will help stop that) I highly doubt that every bonus will be taken at every level.  And it puts everything in the control of the DM as far as which items are found in the course of the campaign.  I can put the ability a little later too so bonuses won't accumulate as much.  I think I'm most skeptical of the two artifact bonuses and I'd appreciate some ideas for replacement bonuses there.  [[User:OzzyKP|OzzyKP]] ([[User talk:OzzyKP|talk]]) 18:06, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 
::#'''Quick Draw''' seems fine at this level. '''Favorite Professor''' now puts the Bard to shame as well, especially if you roll high on the check and get +4 to attack or +4d6 (more likely) to everyone's attacks. If you really want to keep it, I'd keep it at +1 at all levels. '''Lore Master''' seems fine, if you make the above changes to Encyclopedic Knowledge. '''Improved Whip Mastery''' is strong for free, but makes sense.
 
::#'''Quick Draw''' seems fine at this level. '''Favorite Professor''' now puts the Bard to shame as well, especially if you roll high on the check and get +4 to attack or +4d6 (more likely) to everyone's attacks. If you really want to keep it, I'd keep it at +1 at all levels. '''Lore Master''' seems fine, if you make the above changes to Encyclopedic Knowledge. '''Improved Whip Mastery''' is strong for free, but makes sense.
 
::#'''Obtainer of Rare Antiquities''' is quite strong, but I think it's fine since you're focusing on that. '''Reasoned Defense''' on the other hand is probably too strong for Pathfinder. I'd limit it to no armor, since Indy never wandered around in armor.
 
::#'''Obtainer of Rare Antiquities''' is quite strong, but I think it's fine since you're focusing on that. '''Reasoned Defense''' on the other hand is probably too strong for Pathfinder. I'd limit it to no armor, since Indy never wandered around in armor.
:::No armor is a good idea.  18:06, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
+
:::No armor is a good idea.  [[User:OzzyKP|OzzyKP]] ([[User talk:OzzyKP|talk]]) 18:06, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 
::#Not much at this level to comment on.
 
::#Not much at this level to comment on.
 
::#'''Greater Whip Mastery''' is very powerful, but makes sense.
 
::#'''Greater Whip Mastery''' is very powerful, but makes sense.
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::#Not much at this level to comment on.
 
::#Not much at this level to comment on.
 
::#'''Whip Controller''' should be bumped to a lower level in my opinion, if you want Int-focused archaeologists. Put it at level 8 so archaeologists can use it as soon as they can make CMB checks with a whip.
 
::#'''Whip Controller''' should be bumped to a lower level in my opinion, if you want Int-focused archaeologists. Put it at level 8 so archaeologists can use it as soon as they can make CMB checks with a whip.
:::Good idea, I'll add it to 8th. 18:06, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
+
:::Good idea, I'll add it to 8th. [[User:OzzyKP|OzzyKP]] ([[User talk:OzzyKP|talk]]) 18:06, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 
:: Hopefully that helps. As it is, I'd balance it as Unquantifiable due to the semi-infinite stacking bonuses. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 23:52, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
 
:: Hopefully that helps. As it is, I'd balance it as Unquantifiable due to the semi-infinite stacking bonuses. --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 23:52, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
  
 
:: If it's alright, I'll update the balance to unquant, since it has so much variability depending on whether you can sell huge items using It Belongs in a Museum. Feel free to change it when you come back :-) --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 16:51, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 
:: If it's alright, I'll update the balance to unquant, since it has so much variability depending on whether you can sell huge items using It Belongs in a Museum. Feel free to change it when you come back :-) --[[User:Ghostwheel|Ghostwheel]] ([[User talk:Ghostwheel|talk]]) 16:51, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
 
:::Thanks for the great and detailed feedback!  I understand the class is powerful, and I understand it steps on the toes of Rogue, Bard & Gunslinger.  That was the point.  :)  In addition to just wanting something fun and Indiana Jones like, I was hoping for a non-magical class that could reach the power and versatility of wizards and clerics.  Perhaps I still fell short of that, I dunno, but I certainly wanted this to be significantly more powerful than the average rogue or bard.  I'll respond to some of your points above.  [[User:OzzyKP|OzzyKP]] ([[User talk:OzzyKP|talk]])
 
:::Thanks for the great and detailed feedback!  I understand the class is powerful, and I understand it steps on the toes of Rogue, Bard & Gunslinger.  That was the point.  :)  In addition to just wanting something fun and Indiana Jones like, I was hoping for a non-magical class that could reach the power and versatility of wizards and clerics.  Perhaps I still fell short of that, I dunno, but I certainly wanted this to be significantly more powerful than the average rogue or bard.  I'll respond to some of your points above.  [[User:OzzyKP|OzzyKP]] ([[User talk:OzzyKP|talk]])

Revision as of 18:07, 2 October 2015

I don't know what to say about the class balance, I'd love someone else to take a look and give it an assessment. Thanks!

Will hopefully take a look at it tomorrow, but for what it's worth, Pathfinder generally stays in Moderate range for much of the game, with spellcasters venturing into High range and VERY rarely into Very High range. Seeing as this is a non-caster, and assuming that you've balanced it according to what similar Pathfinder non-spellcasters can do, I'd peg it at Moderate. With that said, don't take my word for it as I've yet to read the class, but hopefully that should give you a general direction. --Ghostwheel (talk) 00:09, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
Alrighty, let's take a look at this. I'll give it a level-by-level breakdown.
  1. Grit: Since you're doing the gunslinger route, shouldn't you add a free firearm, like the gunslinger does? Polyglot: People who invest heavily in Linguistics are going to use up virtually all the languages in any campaign. With a high starting Int, I'm not sure this is really needed. Perhaps instead have this start as Comprehend Languages by spending 1 grit, upgrading to Tongues at some level? Encyclopedic Knowledge: Skill checks are ridiculously easy to pump up. At higher levels, there are items that give up to +30 to a knowledge skill. I would make this a bonus scaling by level if you make an Intelligence + Level check (DC 15 + CR of targets) with the bonus starting at +1 and increasing by +1 at level 5 and every 5 levels hence. Plus, take into account that guns virtually auto-hit at high levels. Thus, Twist the Knife is INCREDIBLY powerful, and I'd tone that one way down. Compare to the Pistolero archetype which needs to spend a grit point to do something similar. Perhaps spend a grit point to auto-succeed on the check?
I was thinking about doing the free firearm, but then I thought that I should leave something unique to the gunslinger, heh. I like the idea of using grit in with languages, but I like keeping all the abilities as non-magical as possible. I could tone it down to 2 languages per skill point. As for encyclopedic knowledge, yea, I know it is really powerful, that (and favorite professor) are the key abilities of the class. I definitely wouldn't want to nerf it to a paltry +1 every 5 levels, but perhaps a cap of your INT modifier or class level. Also, activating it with a grit point is a good idea as well. I'll reduce twist the knife to a 1d4 instead of 1d6 as well. OzzyKP (talk) 18:06, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
  1. Clever Explorer seems fine, though a bit unneeded since in general it's very easy to boost skills if you really need it. Plus you're kinda stepping hard on the rogue's toes. Danger Sense looks fine. Very Indiana Jones-y. Whip Mastery: Yep.
  2. It Belongs in a Museum is waaaay powerful since you can effectively stack things tons of times, especially what with wealth being a river (craft items, trade them for super-bonuses). Imagine +10 to AC and saves, or an ability score, or 10 bonus feats, and so on. At the very least, make them not stack, and expect the entire list (up to artifacts) to eventually be added to the character. Take that into account on how much power the class should have. I would also bump Pistol Training up to level 5 to put it at the same level as the Gunslinger, but honestly with Encyclopedic Knowledge it's unneeded, and the combination of the two plus gaining all the Gunslinger's tricks makes this power creep compared to the Gunslinger.
This is the other one I knew would open up a lot of balance issues. I had intended this to only apply to items found while on a campaign. Not crafted stuff and not stuff bought with treasure. The bonuses are (except for the last two) rather minor compared to what is given up. I mean if you come across a +4 Belt of Physical Perfection are you going to trade in a +4 in STR, DEX & CON for a +2 in one ability score? Unless someone is really abusing the system (putting limits on how items can be found will help stop that) I highly doubt that every bonus will be taken at every level. And it puts everything in the control of the DM as far as which items are found in the course of the campaign. I can put the ability a little later too so bonuses won't accumulate as much. I think I'm most skeptical of the two artifact bonuses and I'd appreciate some ideas for replacement bonuses there. OzzyKP (talk) 18:06, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
  1. Quick Draw seems fine at this level. Favorite Professor now puts the Bard to shame as well, especially if you roll high on the check and get +4 to attack or +4d6 (more likely) to everyone's attacks. If you really want to keep it, I'd keep it at +1 at all levels. Lore Master seems fine, if you make the above changes to Encyclopedic Knowledge. Improved Whip Mastery is strong for free, but makes sense.
  2. Obtainer of Rare Antiquities is quite strong, but I think it's fine since you're focusing on that. Reasoned Defense on the other hand is probably too strong for Pathfinder. I'd limit it to no armor, since Indy never wandered around in armor.
No armor is a good idea. OzzyKP (talk) 18:06, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
  1. Not much at this level to comment on.
  2. Greater Whip Mastery is very powerful, but makes sense.
  3. Favored Enemy is more powerful than the Ranger version, but I think it's fine.
  4. Not much at this level to comment on.
  5. Not much at this level to comment on.
  6. Whip Controller should be bumped to a lower level in my opinion, if you want Int-focused archaeologists. Put it at level 8 so archaeologists can use it as soon as they can make CMB checks with a whip.
Good idea, I'll add it to 8th. OzzyKP (talk) 18:06, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Hopefully that helps. As it is, I'd balance it as Unquantifiable due to the semi-infinite stacking bonuses. --Ghostwheel (talk) 23:52, 30 September 2015 (UTC)
If it's alright, I'll update the balance to unquant, since it has so much variability depending on whether you can sell huge items using It Belongs in a Museum. Feel free to change it when you come back :-) --Ghostwheel (talk) 16:51, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the great and detailed feedback! I understand the class is powerful, and I understand it steps on the toes of Rogue, Bard & Gunslinger. That was the point.  :) In addition to just wanting something fun and Indiana Jones like, I was hoping for a non-magical class that could reach the power and versatility of wizards and clerics. Perhaps I still fell short of that, I dunno, but I certainly wanted this to be significantly more powerful than the average rogue or bard. I'll respond to some of your points above. OzzyKP (talk)