View source for Talk:Saiyan Warrior (3.5e Class)

== Ratings ==

{{Rating |rater=Iskerbabble
|rating=favor
|reason= I've played this class with an all Saiyan game and really enjoyed it. There are a lot of unbalanced and crappy DBZ classes out there, so it was a breath of fresh air to find this one so long ago. It's powerful, but not too overpowered. Some might say it can be abused, but in my opinion that goes for almost any good D&D class out there. As long as you have considerate players, and a decent DM, it's a class that can be enjoyed.
}}
{{Rating |rater=TheOgre
|rating=favor
|reason=Loving the descriptions and lore and series tie ins. Seen some very poor attempts at dbz style classes. Been a pleasure playing this. Balancing is fine for the most part provided dm isnt out to lunch and doesnt allow metagaming and abuse.
}}
{{Rating |rater=Bigthirsty
|rating=favor
|reason=Ive been playing a campaign with your class for about 5 months now and ive been loving it. The changes youve been making have been great too im just curious if youve looked at making ultra instinct at some point.Bigthirsty (talk) 15:44, 12 November 2017 (MST)
}}
{{Rating |rater=Zhenra-Khal
|rating=favor
|reason=Much like the corresponding race, this is probably my favorite adaption of the DBZ warriors in existence. It's well-written, and appropriately powerful.
}}
{{Rating |rater= balmz
|rating= Favor
|reason= Easily one of my favorite articles on the wiki, very well done
}}
{{Rating|rater=Franken Kesey
|rating=favor
|reason=Finally a class that take a role similar to a monk – but is amazing at it! Also really like the Super Saiyan abilities.
}}
{{Rating |rater=ZandarLightfoot
|rating=favor
|reason=It's great! Apparently not complete, as there is no description for most of the epic level stuff, but still great nonetheless!
}}
{{Rating |rater=Kosta
|rating=like
|block=NewVersion
|reason=Would fav if you buffed him a little more. *wink, wink*
}}
Gave the class a considerable bump in power with Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, not to mention I also created alternate stat bonus for Planar Shepard campaigns which can be found towards the bottom of the page. [[User:The-Marksman|The-Marksman]] ([[User talk:The-Marksman|talk]]) 12:38, 11 June 2019 (MDT)
{{Rating |rater=Drakathen
|rating=like
|reason=
}}
You should fill in a reason why you like it.  You can edit it after the fact by hitting the edit button in the top right. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] ([[User talk:Eiji-kun|talk]]) 00:01, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

{{Rating |rater=Planterobloon
|rating=neutral
|block=NewVersion
|reason=I like the idea, but perhaps some more feat separations are in order. I also can't find the Oozaru description anywhere, and the SS levels may need some DR at higher levels. Just saiyan. :)
}}
I have added the damage reduction and Oozaru is a racial feature, which can be found [[Saiyans (3.5e Race)|here]]. [[User:The-Marksman|The-Marksman]] ([[User talk:The-Marksman|talk]]) 06:01, 10 June 2019 (MDT)
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{{Rating |rater=Fluffykittens
|rating=dislike
|block=NewVersion
|reason=If this was a simple monk ACF, I would rate it neutral. As is, DBZ flavor does not mesh well with DND, and this class is excessively long.
}}
{{Rating |rater=Ghostwheel
|rating=hate
|block=
|reason=First, making a class based off of a franchise without removing the flavor of the franchise is pretty silly. Second, DBZ doesn't fit well with the D&D mechanics. Third, it keeps saying "Saiyan" but there's no racial requirement on it--and if there is, then the scope of this class would be incredibly limited. Fourth, instead of making a whole class for it you should just reflavor psionics--they work incredibly well. Fifth, not all the abilities jive with the flavor. Example - all saiyan warriors learn fusion dance at level 13 automatically rather than having to learn it? Doesn't jive with the series flavor.
}}
{{Rating |rater=Undead_Knave
|rating=hate
|block=
|reason=See my detailed notes below.
}}

== To the recent edits. ==

Do not make mechanical edits to other people's pages until addressing the discussion page here.  We maintain author ownership as important, so if you want to have a hand on this class you need to either ask the author, or request to adopt here. -- [[User:Eiji-kun|Eiji-kun]] ([[User talk:Eiji-kun|talk]]) 00:14, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

== Rework notes ==

Okay so I've gone through and reworked some stuff and made the page slightly more organized and easier to read/follow. I tweaked the wording on the monk like abilities to make it more clear that the levels of monk and Saiyan Warrior stack and that monks can go back to being monks after. Changed the hit die from d8 to d10, increased the damage on ki volley from 1d6 to be equal to unarmed damage. I changed the Style choice at first level to give you a relevant bonus feat and MASSIVELY updated the list of bonus feats to provide A LOT more options for people choosing to go offense or defense instead of ki to make them more viable. Kosta, consider the class now "buffed" up a little more. Also I would say look at the link for alternate Super Saiyan Stats I made for more epic campaigns ([[User:The-Marksman/Saiyan_Warrior_Tables|here]])

I took the feedback from the above ratings and gave damage reduction to the Super Saiyan transformations, and Planterobloon I view Oozaru as a racial feature, not a class related one, so that's on the Saiyan racial page that I made ([[Saiyans_(3.5e_Race)|Here]]) which is linked 3 times in the article, twice at the beginning and once at the very end, and I even added a little snippet about Oozaru at the bottom just for you! ;)

Based on the feedback from ZandarLightfoot I completely threw out my old terrible framework that I had on Epic level Saiyan Warriors and got rid of Super Saiyan 4 and Golden Oozaru since the new Dragonball Z Battle Of Gods and Resurrection of F movies and Dragonball Super series make Dragonball GT no longer cannon. I completely reworked it off of these new series made by the original author Akira Toriyama. In these new series, Goku and Vegeta BOTH become Gods. Literally, they say it in so many words, so I used the Deities and Demigods handbook in the first chapter to find out what one gets for having 0 or 1 divine rank and worked off that to try and make Epic abilities. 

To Fluffykittens I apologize that the class is so long, but it needs to be in order to get all of the correct details into the class and make sure that I'm doing the series justice as much as I can in a D&D environment. If theres some specific part of this you feel isn't right and you'd like to go over which parts arnt good or balanced I'd be happy to look at it. 

To Ghostwheel, this class is intended for just the one race, and that was intentional since the Super Saiyan transformation is specifically a racial legend. I actually did have it listed at the top of the class table where it belongs that it has racial entry requirements. You wrote the most of anyone, but gave the least 'constructive' criticism. Other than making specific rules for them going on a pilgrimage or signing up for Fusion Dance classes at the local inn, I'm not sure how to address your concerns. If you'd like to give more constructive feedback other than scraping the project and using psionics, I'm open to addressing any concerns you have. [[User:The-Marksman|The-Marksman]] ([[User talk:The-Marksman|talk]]) 00:48, 11 November 2017 (MST)

==Protect this Page==
Some idiot using an IP keeps vandalizing this page. This page should be protected for only logged in users to reduce the vandalism. --Franken Kesey 08:48, 9 May 2019 (MDT)

== The Strength of Strength ==

This looks at a glance like it has a lot going on, but sometimes looks can be deceiving.  The Monk is a perfect example of that, so let's go more in depth.

-Chassis: Always a good place to start.  This chassis is fantastic.  Full BAB, all good saves, d10 hd.  The only thing it doesn't have going for it hard is 4/level skill points, which is the default.

-Flurry (and other scaling monky things): I'm just going to put these all here.  This is lifted straight from the monk.  Makes sense enough.  This on its own is a strong addition to a class, and with the full BAB should be a big portion of the class features you're getting for a Moderate (or even probably a High) class.  Also, I'm going to keep the Monk open so I can keep flicking back and forth.  I have a feeling I'm going to need it (not a complaint).  This bullet specifically covers flurry of blows, scaling unarmed damage, scaling AC bonus, and scaling speed bonus.

-Ki Pool: They have a power point pool?  Alright.  That's a bit worrisome.  Those numbers look a little high though...  In fact, compared to a Psion, they're significantly higher.  Checking the tables, you do get bonus points for a high ability at exactly the same rate as power points.  That could probably just point people to that table, but whatever.

-Ki Familiarity: Makes light, doesn't hurt things, costs ki.  Fine.  I'd probably just make that free, but maybe ki regenerates super quickly or something?  Nope, takes 8 hours.  Or Ki Charge?  That's worth looking into.

-Combat Style/Style Focus: Bonus Feats are fine.  These are from a list that I'm going to assume is fine since I don't plan on looking over it too closely.  The scaling is reasonable assuming this is the main brunt of the class, which I'm guessing it is.  No feat list for the ki option, though...  Wait, invocations?

-Ki Abilities: And here are the invocations.  Here they're called out as being psionic, which makes sense enough.  They're also still spell-likes for things like feats, which I actually approve of.  Still, this is potentially worrisome, given what's already here, but maybe this is stuff like your ki volleys or your flights or your solar flares.  I'm not going to lie; I'm mostly not going to look at these, but I'll at least look over their names, and there's at least one I want to touch on later.

-Ki Volley: Guess not.  A touch attack at range that deals normal unarmed strike damage with a save for half.  That's not that bad.  What's the range?  It isn't listed.

-Ki Deflection: So it's deflect arrows, but only against targeted affects that offer Reflex saves?  Seems a bit overly specific, but fine.  Why not acid?  Also, the beam battle things are... needlessly long.  I'd maybe just cut those altogether, but maybe they're crucial to your vision.

-Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge: Always good.  Once again a better monk than the monk.

-Ki Strike: As the monk but slightly better.  This isn't a huge deal on the monk, and it isn't a huge deal here.

-Evasion/Improved Evasion: Expected.  This plus the high reflex save plus the presence of a save on ki volley does mean that two fighting each other at range are mostly immune to each other.

-Awesome Blow: Another bonus feat.  This one is fine and makes enough sense.

-Super Saiyan: There it is.  I was actually surprised at how long it took to get to this.  Free action to activate, costs ki power, requires a +1 base Con bonus...  Gives better bonuses than a full Barbarian rage.  Maybe the ki power cost to keep it up is prohibitive?  10 for an hour?  5 per hour after?  That's 125/day to have it up all the time.  Literally anyone of this level could do that if they don't do anything else with their ki pool.  Speaking of...

-Improved Ki Charging: I mentioned I wasn't actually going to review the invocations except for special cases.  This is the special case.  This is a Greater Ability, and it lets you start every combat at full power.  Scream outside of combat for a bit, and you'll fill up right quick.  So much for having a limited resource.

-Fusion Dance: This is a thing that every Saiyan gets?  This screams "special technique only a few people know" to me.  Weird.  It's also basically Fusion but better and you get it at a lower level than the Egoist.  Oof.  Fusion is already really strong.  Looks like I'll need to hit that, too.  You get this multiple times a day with a high Cha, so it's unlikely you won't have it if you have even the slightest desire.

-Super Saiyan 2: Super Saiyan but better in almost every way.  Where before you had the rage of a level 20 Barbarian with none of the drawbacks, you now have that and a half.  This has the same notes about ki usage as Super Saiyan, except that you definitely have Improved Ki Charging here instead of just probably having it as in the case of Super Saiyan.  This takes a full round action to activate, but you do it out of combat, so it never matters.

-Timeless Body: One of the class features the Monk gets so they don't get nice things, this gets because it already gets lots of nice things.

-Super Saiyan 3: Oof.  +20 to Str and Dex?  That's huge.  At least this one doesn't last hours, so it isn't something you can keep up all the time.  It isn't stealthy either, you need to be screaming every other round to stop your ki levels dropping below full.  With this taking 3 full rounds to activate, you may actually have to consider whether you want to use it or just stick with your capstone-rage-and-a-half that is your default state.  This likely won't see any usage unless you're in the kind of game where you teleport in for ambushes, but that's something this class can learn on its own, so...

-Perfect Self: A surprisingly tame capstone, given the recent entries.  Becoming a Native Outsider is a pretty standard capstone, and DR 10/magic is essentially just a rubbon ability at this level.  This actually points out to me that ironically, enough normal, untrained men with swords could actually beat a level 15 or so Saiyan Warrior.  It would be a lot of men with swords, but it's kind of funny just given how this ramps up.

All told, I was worried when I saw the name of the class, and very concerned when I saw the table.  I've glanced at some of the invocations, and they're not weak flavor things.  Two of the three Super Saiyan transformations are absurd power boosts with no appreciable drawbacks.  In a show, that can be alright.  In a game, it isn't.  Rating incoming.  --[[User:Undead Knave|Undead_Knave]] ([[User talk:Undead Knave|talk]]) 17:34, 21 May 2020 (UTC)