Talk:Saiyan Warrior (3.5e Class)
|Iskerbabble favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!|
|I've played this class with an all Saiyan game and really enjoyed it. There are a lot of unbalanced and crappy DBZ classes out there, so it was a breath of fresh air to find this one so long ago. It's powerful, but not too overpowered. Some might say it can be abused, but in my opinion that goes for almost any good D&D class out there. As long as you have considerate players, and a decent DM, it's a class that can be enjoyed.|
|TheOgre favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!|
|Loving the descriptions and lore and series tie ins. Seen some very poor attempts at dbz style classes. Been a pleasure playing this. Balancing is fine for the most part provided dm isnt out to lunch and doesnt allow metagaming and abuse.|
|Bigthirsty favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!|
|Ive been playing a campaign with your class for about 5 months now and ive been loving it. The changes youve been making have been great too im just curious if youve looked at making ultra instinct at some point.Bigthirsty (talk) 15:44, 12 November 2017 (MST)|
|Zhenra-Khal favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!|
|Much like the corresponding race, this is probably my favorite adaption of the DBZ warriors in existence. It's well-written, and appropriately powerful.|
|balmz favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!|
|Easily one of my favorite articles on the wiki, very well done|
|Franken Kesey favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!|
|Finally a class that take a role similar to a monk – but is amazing at it! Also really like the Super Saiyan abilities.|
|ZandarLightfoot favors this article and rated it 4 of 4!|
|It's great! Apparently not complete, as there is no description for most of the epic level stuff, but still great nonetheless!|
|Kosta likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.|
Gave the class a considerable bump in power with Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, not to mention I also created alternate stat bonus for Planar Shepard campaigns which can be found towards the bottom of the page. The-Marksman (talk) 12:38, 11 June 2019 (MDT)
|Drakathen likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.|
|They didn't actually write a reason for their rating here. They could add it by adding |reason=<stuff> to their rating (per the directions), and should do so soon or the rating will be removed.|
|Planterobloon is neutral on this article and rated it 2 of 4.|
|Fluffykittens dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.|
|Ghostwheel opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.|
|First, making a class based off of a franchise without removing the flavor of the franchise is pretty silly. Second, DBZ doesn't fit well with the D&D mechanics. Third, it keeps saying "Saiyan" but there's no racial requirement on it--and if there is, then the scope of this class would be incredibly limited. Fourth, instead of making a whole class for it you should just reflavor psionics--they work incredibly well. Fifth, the amount of strength they can get from is way too much, especially at higher levels.|
|Undead_Knave opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.|
|See my detailed notes below.|
To the recent edits.
Do not make mechanical edits to other people's pages until addressing the discussion page here. We maintain author ownership as important, so if you want to have a hand on this class you need to either ask the author, or request to adopt here. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 00:14, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
Okay so I've gone through and reworked some stuff and made the page slightly more organized and easier to read/follow. I tweaked the wording on the monk like abilities to make it more clear that the levels of monk and Saiyan Warrior stack and that monks can go back to being monks after. Changed the hit die from d8 to d10, increased the damage on ki volley from 1d6 to be equal to unarmed damage. I changed the Style choice at first level to give you a relevant bonus feat and MASSIVELY updated the list of bonus feats to provide A LOT more options for people choosing to go offense or defense instead of ki to make them more viable. Kosta, consider the class now "buffed" up a little more. Also I would say look at the link for alternate Super Saiyan Stats I made for more epic campaigns (here)
I took the feedback from the above ratings and gave damage reduction to the Super Saiyan transformations, and Planterobloon I view Oozaru as a racial feature, not a class related one, so that's on the Saiyan racial page that I made (Here) which is linked 3 times in the article, twice at the beginning and once at the very end, and I even added a little snippet about Oozaru at the bottom just for you! ;)
Based on the feedback from ZandarLightfoot I completely threw out my old terrible framework that I had on Epic level Saiyan Warriors and got rid of Super Saiyan 4 and Golden Oozaru since the new Dragonball Z Battle Of Gods and Resurrection of F movies and Dragonball Super series make Dragonball GT no longer cannon. I completely reworked it off of these new series made by the original author Akira Toriyama. In these new series, Goku and Vegeta BOTH become Gods. Literally, they say it in so many words, so I used the Deities and Demigods handbook in the first chapter to find out what one gets for having 0 or 1 divine rank and worked off that to try and make Epic abilities.
To Fluffykittens I apologize that the class is so long, but it needs to be in order to get all of the correct details into the class and make sure that I'm doing the series justice as much as I can in a D&D environment. If theres some specific part of this you feel isn't right and you'd like to go over which parts arnt good or balanced I'd be happy to look at it.
To Ghostwheel, this class is intended for just the one race, and that was intentional since the Super Saiyan transformation is specifically a racial legend. I actually did have it listed at the top of the class table where it belongs that it has racial entry requirements. You wrote the most of anyone, but gave the least 'constructive' criticism. Other than making specific rules for them going on a pilgrimage or signing up for Fusion Dance classes at the local inn, I'm not sure how to address your concerns. If you'd like to give more constructive feedback other than scraping the project and using psionics, I'm open to addressing any concerns you have. The-Marksman (talk) 00:48, 11 November 2017 (MST)
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Some idiot using an IP keeps vandalizing this page. This page should be protected for only logged in users to reduce the vandalism. --Franken Kesey 08:48, 9 May 2019 (MDT)
The Strength of Strength
This looks at a glance like it has a lot going on, but sometimes looks can be deceiving. The Monk is a perfect example of that, so let's go more in depth.
-Chassis: Always a good place to start. This chassis is fantastic. Full BAB, all good saves, d10 hd. The only thing it doesn't have going for it hard is 4/level skill points, which is the default.
-Flurry (and other scaling monky things): I'm just going to put these all here. This is lifted straight from the monk. Makes sense enough. This on its own is a strong addition to a class, and with the full BAB should be a big portion of the class features you're getting for a Moderate (or even probably a High) class. Also, I'm going to keep the Monk open so I can keep flicking back and forth. I have a feeling I'm going to need it (not a complaint). This bullet specifically covers flurry of blows, scaling unarmed damage, scaling AC bonus, and scaling speed bonus.
-Ki Pool: They have a power point pool? Alright. That's a bit worrisome. Those numbers look a little high though... In fact, compared to a Psion, they're significantly higher. Checking the tables, you do get bonus points for a high ability at exactly the same rate as power points. That could probably just point people to that table, but whatever.
-Ki Familiarity: Makes light, doesn't hurt things, costs ki. Fine. I'd probably just make that free, but maybe ki regenerates super quickly or something? Nope, takes 8 hours. Or Ki Charge? That's worth looking into.
-Combat Style/Style Focus: Bonus Feats are fine. These are from a list that I'm going to assume is fine since I don't plan on looking over it too closely. The scaling is reasonable assuming this is the main brunt of the class, which I'm guessing it is. No feat list for the ki option, though... Wait, invocations?
-Ki Abilities: And here are the invocations. Here they're called out as being psionic, which makes sense enough. They're also still spell-likes for things like feats, which I actually approve of. Still, this is potentially worrisome, given what's already here, but maybe this is stuff like your ki volleys or your flights or your solar flares. I'm not going to lie; I'm mostly not going to look at these, but I'll at least look over their names, and there's at least one I want to touch on later.
-Ki Volley: Guess not. A touch attack at range that deals normal unarmed strike damage with a save for half. That's not that bad. What's the range? It isn't listed.
-Ki Deflection: So it's deflect arrows, but only against targeted affects that offer Reflex saves? Seems a bit overly specific, but fine. Why not acid? Also, the beam battle things are... needlessly long. I'd maybe just cut those altogether, but maybe they're crucial to your vision.
-Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge: Always good. Once again a better monk than the monk.
-Ki Strike: As the monk but slightly better. This isn't a huge deal on the monk, and it isn't a huge deal here.
-Evasion/Improved Evasion: Expected. This plus the high reflex save plus the presence of a save on ki volley does mean that two fighting each other at range are mostly immune to each other.
-Awesome Blow: Another bonus feat. This one is fine and makes enough sense.
-Super Saiyan: There it is. I was actually surprised at how long it took to get to this. Free action to activate, costs ki power, requires a +1 base Con bonus... Gives better bonuses than a full Barbarian rage. Maybe the ki power cost to keep it up is prohibitive? 10 for an hour? 5 per hour after? That's 125/day to have it up all the time. Literally anyone of this level could do that if they don't do anything else with their ki pool. Speaking of...
-Improved Ki Charging: I mentioned I wasn't actually going to review the invocations except for special cases. This is the special case. This is a Greater Ability, and it lets you start every combat at full power. Scream outside of combat for a bit, and you'll fill up right quick. So much for having a limited resource.
-Fusion Dance: This is a thing that every Saiyan gets? This screams "special technique only a few people know" to me. Weird. It's also basically Fusion but better and you get it at a lower level than the Egoist. Oof. Fusion is already really strong. Looks like I'll need to hit that, too. You get this multiple times a day with a high Cha, so it's unlikely you won't have it if you have even the slightest desire.
-Super Saiyan 2: Super Saiyan but better in almost every way. Where before you had the rage of a level 20 Barbarian with none of the drawbacks, you now have that and a half. This has the same notes about ki usage as Super Saiyan, except that you definitely have Improved Ki Charging here instead of just probably having it as in the case of Super Saiyan. This takes a full round action to activate, but you do it out of combat, so it never matters.
-Timeless Body: One of the class features the Monk gets so they don't get nice things, this gets because it already gets lots of nice things.
-Super Saiyan 3: Oof. +20 to Str and Dex? That's huge. At least this one doesn't last hours, so it isn't something you can keep up all the time. It isn't stealthy either, you need to be screaming every other round to stop your ki levels dropping below full. With this taking 3 full rounds to activate, you may actually have to consider whether you want to use it or just stick with your capstone-rage-and-a-half that is your default state. This likely won't see any usage unless you're in the kind of game where you teleport in for ambushes, but that's something this class can learn on its own, so...
-Perfect Self: A surprisingly tame capstone, given the recent entries. Becoming a Native Outsider is a pretty standard capstone, and DR 10/magic is essentially just a rubbon ability at this level. This actually points out to me that ironically, enough normal, untrained men with swords could actually beat a level 15 or so Saiyan Warrior. It would be a lot of men with swords, but it's kind of funny just given how this ramps up.
All told, I was worried when I saw the name of the class, and very concerned when I saw the table. I've glanced at some of the invocations, and they're not weak flavor things. Two of the three Super Saiyan transformations are absurd power boosts with no appreciable drawbacks. In a show, that can be alright. In a game, it isn't. Rating incoming. --Undead_Knave (talk) 17:34, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for the feedback Knave. Im a little disappointed that you gave the article a 0 when you openly admitted on multiple occasions that you didn't even read the entire thing. Nevertheless, I can appreciate some of your points that you made. Especially the Fusion Dance point and I've made some adjustment accordingly that I hope will be to your liking.
- -I turned Fusion Dance from a class ability that everyone gets to an invocation that needs to be "learned" or chosen. I feel this also actually fits the flavor more, so thanks for making me think about it differently.
- -I thought about how the class is already pretty powerful and so I adjusted the last 10 levels of ki points to match psion.
- -I've moved the number of points gained from both ki charging and improved ki charging down just a little and completely removed the option for regaining ki without taking ability damage. That is no longer an option, and to be honest, was an oversight on my part because I hadn't considered using it out of combat.
- -You seemed possibly put off by the invocations. They are balanced by having to pay the ki points to use them unlike Warlocks who can use theirs at will. Saiyan Warriors cannot use their ki abilities without the points.
- -I do realize the strength numbers are a little high and that was intentional. Same thing with the statements you made about this being "a better monk than monk". That was also intentional. Monk is a low balance class, this is meant to be a very high balance class and should be rated and judged accordingly. So if its more powerful than monk, then it's working as intended. The strength of Super Saiyan at level 11 is only 2 points higher than an 11th level barbarian's greater rage. That's not game breaking at all. The Super Saiyan 2 is only 4 higher than a barbarian's mighty rage. Considering that barbarian is moderate balance class, the Super Saiyan transformations (especially the higher level ones) being more powerful than a barbarian would make sense. With the intended power rating being very high balance, I think this feels appropriate.
- On the note of different balance levels, since you openly admitted to not really reading through everything, I would understand if you missed the part where I mention multiple times that there are alternate stats available for people who want a more moderate/srd balance, which you can see here. I make the lower stats easily accessible for those who want a different balance point. I hope these changes will make this class more to your liking and will allow you to give it a different rating. The-Marksman (talk) 15:19, 30 July 2020 (UTC)
- I read the class, I just didn't read all of the invocations. The class merited the rating of 0 even while discounting the invocations, and I stand by that. That being said, a few comments.
- First, the decrease in ki points to be in line with the psion is fine, I guess. That was a pretty minor thing, but shows a willingness to change so thumbs up.
- Second, technically Fusion Dance is still obtained by all Saiyan Warriors because text trumps table. To make them not all get it, you need to remove it from the text of the class. Additionally, by turning into a Greater Invocation, you have actually made it so they can get this power earlier, meaning they can now get it a whole '5' levels before the Egoist. It also has no duration, so is permanent until dism- actually, I just double checked, it's not dismissable either. It's permanent until dispelled. Pretty sure that's unintentional, though.
- Third, The monk is terrible for a number of reasons, but one of those is that they don't have full BAB. This does have full BAB, and while it still can't use weapons and get its unarmed strike damage that's like whatever. You can use a sword and just use your unarmed for flurry or something if you want. The Monk is also MADAF which this is less (even if only slightly), except...
- They don't need a good strength. That sounds counterintuitive, but in a high level game, they are better in every way than the Barbarian, too. As you've pointed out, Barbarians are only Moderate, true, but Barbarians are only Moderate because they can't do anything outside of fight. The difference between Moderate and High is mostly one of horizontal rather than vertical power. A highly optimized Fighter (the former tier name for Moderate tier on this site) and a highly optimized Rogue (the former tier name for High tier on this site) can output similar amounts of damage, all things considered, but the Rogue can also do things like pick a lock whereas the Fighter can...maybe ride a horse. Maybe. Those 2+Int skills a level really don't help them much.
- That being said, the Strength bonuses from Super Saiyan are, as you've pointed out, 2 points higher than those of Greater Rage which is the main class feature gained at that level for the Barbarian whereas for the Saiyan Warrior it is an auxilliary feature of the class and for some reason stronger. Additionally, as you (again) have pointed out, the bonus from Super Saiyan 2 is "only" 4 points higher than Mighty Rage, the 'capstone' of the Barbarian which the Saiyan Warrior gets '5' levels earlier. It is probably more fair to call the Super Saiyan form a better version of Divine Power that is usable more often at a similar level and the Divine Power Cleric is an excellent example of a Very High melee combatant. Honestly, I'd probably suggest also removing Super Saiyan stuff from ki points but I dunno. Rounds per day or something, maybe? The numbers are definitely way too high, though.
- I've given up at numbering things at this point. I understand that the invocations are supposed to be somewhat stronger than the Warlock's invocations because you have to pay for them. That's fine. My concern comes from them having been in large part - from the ones I've read - stronger than spells or powers of the same or similar levels as well as scaling better than powers because you don't have to pay more to augment them stronger.
- Having discussed this class with some other members of this Wiki, the conclusion we've reached together is that it feels like a combination class of the Monk, the Barbarian, and the Warlock. However, unlike many other combination classes, it gives up nothing to get the full abilities - or better - of all of these classes, and the only part of it that feels like it exists as a balancing factor (namely the ki points) feel like they were tacked on awkwardly at the end almost as an afterthought. I appreciate the signs given so far that you are willing to change things, but, frankly, this class is awkward and needs heavy numerical readjustments.