User talk:Franken Kesey/DPR (3.5e Guide)

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Undead Knave opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.

While I agree with Surgo on the pointlessness of this, perhaps my bigger concern is the stacking of sources which don't stack, which shows a lack of understanding - or simply uncaringness - of the rules. On the Psychic Stalker, for example, there are three sources of enhancement bonuses stacking for attack and damage (Balanced Wealth, Manifest Blade, and Metaphysical Weapon). Additionally, for the classes with limited resources per day, the amount of novaing to maintain some of these uses are staggering. Again going with the Psychic Stalker - which has as many power points as the psion - to get the damage listed per round needs to use 164 of their 343 power points granted by class. Even counting for the extra power points granted by having a high ability score and the lack of need to cast many of the powers twice (or once because they don't stack), you still only have 3 rounds of (well below) the listed DPR before you're essentially just a worse Rogue. And that's not even the best way to kill things with the class, so good job; you're wrong and inefficient. Also, if you take a round to prep to get the DPR you're wanting, you don't double it. You halve it.

Blocked Rating	Ghostwheel opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	This rating refers to a substantially different version of the article, or concerns mentioned in it have already been addressed.What Surgo said.

	Surgo opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	Pointless "guide" that contains all of 5 classes and says next to nothing about them. Makes extremely obvious points, extremely obvious math and rules errors, and doesn't even use the classes optimally (the psychic stalker would never attack like that, what is Kesey even thinking?). I don't see how anyone could actually make use of this.

Added significant info about the classes, plus math.--Franken Kesey 09:14, 1 May 2019 (MDT)

The info about the classes can be gleaned by just looking at their tables... Surgo (talk) 10:29, 1 May 2019 (MDT)

Undead Knave, much is explained in the hidden math. For example, damage is already halved for classes with prep, thus damage in buffed round is found by doubling.

1. Missed the weapon of energy in last edit. Removed it from all the others. Thank you for catching that.
2. Where does it say you cannot stack damage from different powers?
3. With the weapon of energy removed, a 20th level psychic stalker uses 51 power points to fully buff. Not 164. While, 51 is significant, it is only 15% of there daily total (not even including daily bonuses).
4. Prep rounds were designed to be no more than one round (with quickened powers). Again, will remove the weapon of energy (+1d6 is not worth much). Do not see where you are getting the three prep rounds from.
5. There are many ways to defeat an opponent outside of damage. However, it is difficult to know how each method compares to another, because they are situational. Further, most of the listed classes are in the High balance range with things like rogue. A rogue's main power is sneak attack. Thus they mostly win by attrition.
6. In next edit, will have math reviled to reduce confusion.--Franken Kesey 17:40, 6 May 2019 (MDT)

1. I never said anything about weapon of energy.
2. Oh, I don't know, pages 171-172 of the PHB? My favorite part of it for this conversation: "More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above). For example, the enhancement bonus to Strength from a bull’s strength spell and the enhancement bonus to Strength from a divine power spell don’t stack. You use whichever bonus gives you the better Strength score. In the same way, a belt of giant Strength gives you an enhancement bonus to Strength, which does not stack with the bonus you get from a bull’s strength spell."
3. You have the Psychic Stalker using a fully augmented Pyrokinetic Strike on every attack in a full attack. That's 20 pp per attack with 6 attacks per round. That's 120 pp a round ignoring everything else.
4. I never said it took 3 prep rounds. I said you'd only get three rounds of the max damage using these tactics. Very different things.
5. First of all, (just under) half of the things listed are VH rather than H. Second, Rogues don't win by attrition. They win by dealing massive spike damage with party support.

But please, keep putting words in my mouth when there's written proof of all the points brought up. --Undead_Knave (talk) 22:02, 6 May 2019 (MDT)

Reworking the math, but the stuff above example section is completely new.--Franken Kesey 12:03, 8 May 2019 (MDT)

What's the point of this?

This page isn't exactly discoverable, and in most cases the synergy is pretty minor. What is this page for? Surgo (talk) 07:51, 30 April 2019 (MDT)

Noticed a few classes meld standard classes, thus aggregated them here (much like the limb manifesto). This is easily discoverable in the Character Optimization section under Guides, in fact it is the 2nd on the list. Plan to add other classes and synergized articles to it. If you find others you are welcome to add.--Franken Kesey 08:03, 30 April 2019 (MDT)

I understand the what, I'm asking about the why. Surgo (talk) 08:07, 30 April 2019 (MDT)

The title of this subject and your initial question (which you wrote) literally is what. Regardless, can also answer why. If a user was looking for a theme of synergized classes they can find them all here. This is the point of optimized guides, a place to find about a thematic group like spells that fvcking kill people. Spells that fvcking kill people did not create new material, it only aggregated and grouped what was already in existence.--Franken Kesey 08:18, 30 April 2019 (MDT)

Changed the focus of this page to compare DPR of classes.--Franken Kesey 09:20, 4 May 2019 (MDT)

Yeah, that's also pointless. There are so many different choices apart from class that this doesn't make for anything useful unless you just want to know what does the most damage, and at that point I'd point you towards the Tome Samurai and be done with it, or something similar. DPS of a specific class in a vacuum can be used to try to argue for a certain balance range, but this on its own is quite pointless. --Ghostwheel (talk) 10:15, 4 May 2019 (MDT)

Benchmarks

Optimization is the process of putting various pieces together to create something greater than the sum of its parts. Simply showing benchmarks of classes does not do very much to further the case of this page, as it doesn't add anything substantial for its reason of existence. --Ghostwheel (talk) 01:06, 1 May 2019 (MDT)

Want to have a list of all classes that synergize standardized classes. Doubt that this is all of them here (will add on finding others). DPR is the easiest and fairest way to compare the different classes. This is a guide, not an optimized build. There is a difference.--Franken Kesey 07:32, 1 May 2019 (MDT)