Talk:Hivemaster (3.5e Class)

Hive Mind

Might wanna make it so that the intelligent vermin can't perform the aid another action for the Hivemaster, or else we've got nanobots all over again. --Ghostwheel 23:47, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

For clarification, where should that part be included? - TG Cid 19:49, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Well, as written, the Hivemaster Wins D&D at 12th level. He might not get the ability score benefits, but his vermin do, and he has an arbitrary number of them in and on his body (as 1st level Swarm ability). Even with the somewhat non-arbitrary number given ("trillions"), which implies a lower bound of 2 trillion, that still means that his swarm will have an Intelligence and Charisma of ~40 billion, with a Sorcerer caster level of about the same. Which is... slightly broken. --Neofenrir 18:54, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it's definitely a work in progress. In D&D the idea of a swarm of Fine creatures is something in the thousands, whereas realistically it's probably somthing significantly higher. "Trillions" of insects was hyperbolizing for the most part, and the hive mind would obviously be limited so that it does not recieve such benefits. Hiveminds are a somewhat tricky matter that I'm still working on. Thanks anyway for pointing it out. - TG Cid 19:49, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

At some point, on the WotC boards (and perhaps in something "official"), it was suggested that a single swarm only count as a single mind/ally. Perhaps that mechanic can be worked in? --Be well 00:00, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

That sounds appropriate. So the hivemaster counts as one, the vermin companion (which I'm going to actually put in detail soon) could count, and the swarms count as one. Thanks. - TG Cid 11:09, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

Another possible issue with Hive Mind is that there's no provision against using it on hostile vermin, nor on the number of times the ability can be used. So, the Verminfriend feat and even the capstone ability are overshadowed by this ability, as he can just spend a standard action (I assume, as no definition is given) and have total control over all vermin around him. So there should either be some kind of save, or (and I like this idea better) it should take a decent amount of time to do. Something like 10 minutes or so, so it's never going to be used in combat. --Neofenrir 03:52, October 25, 2009 (UTC)

According to the BoVD's rules, all the hivemind creatures have to be of the same species, a rule that doesn't seem very applicable here given that the hivemaster and her vermin are different species anyway. Other than that (and the fact that they have to be within a certain distance of each other), there are no written rules to govern hostilities between them. I'm assuming that since the hivemaster lacks a way to definitively summon a swarm that exists as its own entity (her swarm ability disperses in the same round), then the only real way for him to garner any power with it is to draw other vermin to your side. The hivemaster also lacks any method to do this, as Verminfriend and Lord of the Flies only prevent the vermin from attacking and do not transfer allegiance.

My best guess is that the Hivemind rules were made under the assumption that all of the vermin would be hostile against the players and, by association, allied with themselves. The original Vermin Lord could cast spells (i.e., summon swarm) and therfore could create his own hivemind. Since the the hivemaster cannot do this, I was thinking that perhaps instead of her swarms only counting as one individual, they would count as a number that corresponds with her level (perhaps 50 per level, as the biggest power jumps as far as a hivemind are concerned seem to be 500 and 1000). Outside vermin would then not count. - TG Cid 12:16, October 25, 2009 (UTC)

Balance Point

I don't think the Hivemaster meets the criteria for a Wizard balance point. I haven't seen any of the Hivemaster feats that the class is supposed to get (do those exist yet?) but they'd have to be some pretty damn good feats to get it up to Wizard-level power. The only possible method (thus far) of getting abilities to rival the Wizard is Hivemind, but you need a crap-ton of vermin and DM fiat for that, so that can't really be counted. This isn't a complaint or anything — I like the class, I just think it's closer to a Rogue than a Wizard. --Neofenrir 08:20, October 21, 2009 (UTC)

I'm somewhat in agreement with you, but the feats are what were supposed to push it to that level. The feats that I have made so far can be found here, and the complete list (so far at least, as more may come) is in here. - TG Cid 18:36, October 21, 2009 (UTC)

Swollen Swarm

I think the "does not take damage" line should be moved to the 1st level Swarm ability. Even though it only affects a 5-foot square, as written, if the hivemaster uses Swarm against a Medium or smaller enemy grappling him (or against small creatures otherwise attacking him in his square), until 8th level he takes damage and is subject to the nausea effect, which doesn't make any sense to me. --Neofenrir 11:34, October 25, 2009 (UTC)

Good point. Done. - TG Cid 11:40, October 25, 2009 (UTC)