Dungeons and Dragons Wiki talk:Article Balance

XPH + ToB < Wizard/Cleric

It looks like you have a rather rough gradient here for the balance distinction that really matters. XPH and ToB tends to be weaker than wizards, clerics, and Frank and K stuffs. I foresee problems with users who want an XPH level of balance not knowing where to categorize. Is it an overpowered rogue or an underpowered wizard? Another layer might help avoid this problem. --Andrew Arnott (talk, email) 01:16, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

I personally would just rank the Psion with the Sorcerer and the PsyWar with the Rogue. Warblade definitely goes with Rogue. Does anyone disagree with this? (I really don't think anything I listed is better than the Rogue, and the Psion is basically a Sorcerer with a little more suck added on.) I don't want the layers to get too fine-grained is all. Surgo 01:22, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

Here are some more classes for how I see the breakdown:

• Monk level: Paladin, Ranger (not paired with Scout), Healer, Swashbuckler (not paired with Rogue)
• Fighter level: Warlock, Warmage, Hexblade, Spellthief (except under specific circumstances in a spellcaster-heavy campaign), Scout, Marshal
• Rogue level (balanced classes): Rogue, Ranger (when paired with Scout), Swashbuckler (when paired with Rogue), Warblade, Swordsage, Duskblade, Psychic Warrior, Crusader, Factotum, Dread Necromancer, Bard. A lot of Tome material, especially the base classes written up by Frank and K (though not so much their Prestige Classes, or some of the others written by other people) balance at this level, and this is where I believe true balance to be found.
• In between Rogue and Wizard level: Sorcerer, Psion, Erudite (no spells-to-power variant), Wilder, Favored Soul, Beguiler,
• Wizard level: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Artificer, Archivist (actually unsure about this one, might be a tier lower), Erudite (spells-to-powers variant)

That said, I think it would be a good idea to mention that the classes that are higher tier are not powerful if you don't build them right; for example, in many campaigns I've played online, I see wizards preparing spells like Magic Missile, Scorching Ray (no metamagic), Fireball, Cone of Cold, etc. These characters would probably fit closer to the Fighter level, perhaps even below the Warmage than they would at the highest tier. --Ghostwheel 01:37, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

I just want to underscore again, before we go any further (and before I reply to anything here), that these aren't supposed to be definite rankings of classes or even all that finely-grained; their one large purpose is to say to a prospective viewer "if your campaign includes (this Wizards thing), this article (is / is not) okay to use." Surgo 02:46, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

Fair enough. I'm more concerned about how these balance points apply to ratings. Do we give a bad rating to something that has a balance point in between rogue and wizard? I'd hope not if it was intended to be balanced that way. --Andrew Arnott (talk, email) 13:45, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

Oh, certainly not. These really shouldn't apply to how ratings work -- this is a tool for DMs. Surgo 14:11, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

So where do we, as a wiki place "balanced"? Let's say there's a class that gets clerical casting (including 2 domains), d8 HD, armor/weapon proficiencies as the cleric, and has no Turn Undead; however, at first level they get a +1 luck bonus to attack and damage that rises by another 1 every 3 levels (to a max of 3), at level 7 they gain a permanent +6 enhancement bonus to str and their BAB rises to meet their character level, and at ninth level they gain a size category, +4 str, DR, etc (sound familiar?) Would this class be considered balanced when it's at the same power level as a DMM cleric?

At any rate, my point is... what's balanced here? Are things that have the same/more power than the wizard level balanced? Things that have the same power as the rogue level? Or those that have the same power as the fighter level? Or is everything perhaps simply balanced according to its power level? (So clerics are balanced to the wizard power level while healers are not underpowerd, but are instead balanced to the monk power level?) --Ghostwheel 17:47, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the question of where the wiki places balance is relevant, or rather, I don't think it should be answered site-wide. Balance is something that happens in an indvidual campaign, it's not something that happens across the entire wiki on a single point. As for your example class...yeah, that class would be thrown in at "wizard" level and would fit in okay there, probably.

So when a class shows up and it declares "I'm trying to be around this level", that's what I'm going to judge it as. I'm not going to try to answer the question site-wide whether there's One True Balance Point because while all my campaigns are tome campaigns, there are seriously people out there who think that the Monk is the One True Way (seriously). These people are weird and in my opinion pretty stupid, but the wiki can service their campaigns as well. No need to get more restrictive than that, is my opinion. So I guess my long-winded answer to this is "balance is campaign dependent" (which doesn't mean it can't be argued, because it totally can within where you're trying to set something down (like your arguments that some Tome caster PrCs are overpowered) but it does mean that some people are going to play at the Monk level and be at least okay).

This wasn't asked or even noted but I feel like saying it too -- this is one of the multitude of reasons we have a rating committee to rate the quality of classes posted. I mean, it's pretty clear by now at this point in 3.5's life cycle that there is no function that takes in a class and decides balance (or even how well it does against monsters, really) or goodness and that's why we've got 9 pretty smart guys and gals here to do that job. Surgo 18:57, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

Some balance point metaphors. Cause I'm hungry. --Jay Freedman 19:00, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

• Vegetarian (bread and sauce.) (no use, broken)
• French Dip (all meat. no lettuce and tomato.) (over use, munchkin)
• B.L.T. (lettuce and tomato, but no meat.) (some use, fighter & paladin)
• Turkey Sandwich (good mix.) (useful, ranger & rogue)
• Everything Burger (it has it all.) (useful anytime, wizard & sorcerer)

Please avoid posting this useless nonsense here when people are trying to have a useful discussion. Surgo 19:01, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

So judge classes based on the power level tier they're shooting for, gotcha. That sounds fair. Perhaps we should add a section to the class-creation template of what tier of power the author is making it for? (Choose on of the following options, Monk, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard?) --Ghostwheel 19:12, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

→Reverted indentation to one colon

Yeah, once this page is finished up I'll be editing the preloads and author template for just that purpose. Surgo 19:16, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

While most of the classes up here are straightforward, it's difficult to get a sense of what the balance levels mean for some of the classes that change based on how they're played. It might be helpful to include classes+playstyles for the really variable classes, like how the single barbarian entry is already done. Blastan wizards at fighter level, regular wizards at rogue level, and optimized tactical wizards at wizard level (or whatever) would give a better idea of what the levels represent. TarkisFlux 22:33, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

Award Balance Ratings

I'd like to start giving different content on the wiki ratings of Monk, Fighter, Rogue, or Wizard, and if the author disagrees they can change it and/or rebalance it to fit the tier they're shooting for. Is there any template that I could use to start this? If anyone disagrees with the rating given, we can start talking about it on the talk page, but while I'd like to start giving preliminary ratings, the author will be the final decider. --Ghostwheel 00:27, September 18, 2009 (UTC)

I second the motion! Slap them puppies with balance. The authors can consider it feedback and change it later. Oh and, good luck. --Jay Freedman 06:40, September 18, 2009 (UTC)

That was the end goal, which I haven't been able to do myself because, well, grad school. There is no actual template to use, it's just a parameter in the author template. |balance=Monk, |balance=Fighter, |balance=Rogue, or |balance=Wizard. (What |balance=(thing) actually will do is link (thing) to an anchor in this page.) Surgo 18:16, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I've got the basics of this sorted out over here, but I don't want to move it into the author template just yet (after last night, I'm taking my time and I may give the author template some cleaning in general). There are also two behaviors we need to choose from for when people specify invalid balance types for their work. In case 1 it throws up a note that the balance point is specifically not to wiki guidelines and links them to the balance page, and in case 2 it just tries to find the balance point anchor on this page and fails, linking them back to the balance page but not indicating the failure otherwise. Neither is harder to implement, so it really is a question of preference. Anyone have one?

Revised author template is live now (and I fixed a spacing issue in there). I went with the "This page doesn't meet standard guidelines" balance entry for when people pick weird crap, if there's any desire for the other way I can always change it. We may need to re-edit and save all of the pages with the tag on it already, since it doesn't seem to auto-update pages with the template on it when the template changes, unless someone wants to bot it. - TarkisFlux 02:05, September 24, 2009 (UTC)

Balance of Races

Human's a good rogue-level benchmark for virtually all classes. Ask yourself, "Is this the same in power as a human in the class that it would be most powerful at?" If yes, it's rogue-level as well. If it's weaker, it might be fighter or monk level. If it's stronger, it's probably wizard tier. So a gray elf is stronger than the human at being a wizard (+2 int > bonus feat for wizards), while half-orc is weaker than a human at being a warblade/crusader (meleers REALLY need those feats), and as a warblade or crusader the dwarf is about as good as a human (bonus feat is nice, but dwarves get all those yummy bonuses). Same to the halfling as a rogue. Half-elf doesn't compare to human almost anywhere apart from super-specialized builds, so it would receive the monk balance level. Also, some people might say that in the long run one's race doesn't matter, since ability bonuses are overcome through items; however, given the same items, a gray elf wizard is always going to have a higher DC than a human (the same difference as level one) as well as a bonus (two, perhaps) spell (also the same as at level one). --Ghostwheel 02:55, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

I strongly believe races should be handled differently, the balance point system is pretty but i don,t think it can universally applied everywhere. I may have my own little idea on how to do so, since we don't want to split the balance system too much it going in the same direction as balance point. I would so totally prove my point and write my system but I feel lazy today. --Leziad 03:00, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

So based on Mibbit discussion we seem to have come to the consensus that do to its versatility, human is a good rogue-level benchmark for rating races. There was some disagreement, however, over the universality/finality of the placement of each race. For example, no one seemed to disagree that a half-lunar sorcerer was effectively wizard-level in that combination, but the current page does not provide for the combination, it only states a race. Therefore I propose that races be followed in parentheses by the classes that they are assumed to be progressing in, for example: Half-Lunar (Sorcerer) or Strongheart Halfling (Rogue) would be wizard-tier for their respective classes, while a half-orc wizard would be monk level or worse (not that you need every combination under the sun). -- Jota 03:01, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

As is, this so doesn't work. IMO, races should not have a balance point unless they are a ECL race that involves taking it instead of class levels. Noone is going to try to balance around the half-orc or half-elf, and I don't think we should encourage that. Races are also a lot trickier. The gray elf is rated as "wizard tier", while the hill dwarf is rated as "rogue tier". Why? Isn't giving +1 HP/level, the ability to tumble in full plate, +2 to all saves, huge bonuses vs poison, and the awesome stonecunning to fighter equal to what is basically +1 to spell DCs and AC at the cost of HP? The gnome, point-for-point, has some of the smallest racial benefits, but when applied to a focused illusionist or beguiler they suddenly become totally awesome. This I feel makes the system unworkable. Races should be handled on a case-by-case basis - figure out what classes the race is best for, and compare them to the other races that are best for that class. Figure out how much they're ahead or behind by, and if it's acceptable amount. Even if they're outright better, that can be OK - a race especially well suited to a class that doesn't have a race already well suited to is perfectly balanced. Karrius 05:04, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

Upon thinking it over again (sorry guys), Karrius is pretty much right here. Balance points for races should probably be omitted. Surgo 14:59, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

Done and done. --Ghostwheel 16:57, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

Balance of Anything

I've noticed that this system is clunky when it comes to anything other than classes. Magic items can't be balanced against "rogue" and feats can't be balanced against "wizard". I suggest we abstract this system a bit more in the names of each category and have 4 options: low power (monk), moderate power (fighter), standard power (rogue), high power (wizard). Those names would need a bit of tweaking (standard power in particular). We can still have the descriptions of what each mean in terms of classes, but we can expand it to encompass races, feats, magic items, etc. This change will better allow us to achieve the wiki goal of providing accessible content at different balance levels. --Andrew Arnott (talk, email) 15:40, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

What I wanted to do was provide examples that weren't just classes (though the names can probably be left behind as classes as they represent it well). For feats we have the monk tier (alertness, weapon focus, most feats in the game), the fighter tier (power attack), the rogue tier (quicken spell), and the wizard tier (divine metamagic). Surgo 15:47, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

I added in feats. We'll need some discussion on categorical examples for magic items. Surgo 15:54, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

Um, yeah, good that feats and the odd stuff has been added in, but, just to comment on a point above, it'd be very unwise to call anything 'standard', regardless of how you play the game, since that could offend some people. Anyways, the idea of this system was to accept all levels of material, and not label one as 'standard' or 'best', after all. → Rith ^(talk) 16:37, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Rith on the phrasing of it, and I would also add: are you sure we should include the feats under (within) the class levels of balance? I feel like they're subcategories or something rather than parallels, if that is understandable? -- Jota 17:05, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

I would also put in my voice for a different names of balance standard than the class names if EVERYTHING will be under them. If we call rogue "SGT Level", wizard "Tome Level" (or something), and fighter someone like "Core Melee Level", then that would likely work better. I also think you'd only really need 3 balance levels - as much as it sounds elitist, core monk class / toughness feat level is quite frankly unacceptable. Karrius 18:32, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

I'd like to note for this discussion that any changes, provided they aren't too drastic, can easily be bot-fixed by me so stuff that's already been written as "|balance=rogue" (or whatever) can be easily changed to what it needs to be. With that out of the way...just remember the rule: the system should not too fine grained! Surgo 18:35, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

I had guessed at that. I assume that a name change is overall desired, however? I also think it needs to be clarified how stuff is ranked. The current problem I see for more module things like spells is that there's a minimum and a maximum pulling at them in different directions. Bless is perfectly fine to cast in any tier, as it won't be overpowered or underpowered in any, being a nice, utility ability. Fighters are underpowered in many games, and Druids are overpowered. Rogues tend to be neither. ETC. I'm not sure if I'm articulating this properly, and will try again later after I've got some sleep. Karrius 18:41, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

If we're moving away from existing levels, here's some suggestions for shooting down:

• Casual level (doesn't matter if it keeps up past low levels)
• Determined level (SGT material, stuff that keeps up at most levels)
• Optimized level (alternately hard core level or something less loaded, material that exceeds the SGT at most levels).
• Utility level (generally does not apply to classes, though it might be a good fit for indirect classes like the marshal; stuff like bless that is generally useful regardless of play style in the right situations)

My 2cp. - TarkisFlux 18:51, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

Things like Bless that can be cast at any level should probably just not have a balance tag at all, in the same sense that most (all) races aren't going to have a balance tag either. Surgo 18:54, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

For the feats, I think Toughness, Alertness and Combat Casting (compare to Skill Focus (Concentration) are good monk-level feats, but weapon focus is at least Fighter-level, if not Rogue-level when you look at it from a numbers/statistical point of view and compare it to an equivalent AC and figure out DPR--especially when characters are making more than one attack. Along with DMM, Leadership is another highest-level feat, as is Dragon Wildshape. Other rogue-level feats include Shock Trooper, Combat Brute, and Robilar's Gambit. In my experience, Power Attack is actually a fighter-level feat unless you have a specialized build that makes touch attacks or gets an insane attack bonus--at higher level, when you have at least 4 attacks, on average you're going to statistically do more damage if you refrain from power attacking. --Ghostwheel 22:04, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

Difference between Wizard-level and Others

I'd say one of the biggest qualifications for wizard-level status is the ability to change the way the game's played--that is, the ability to bone reality and play rocket tag. Since we know that balancing a character per-day (as opposed to per-encounter) doesn't work due to the inability to assume X encounters per day, even a class that gets to play rocket tag 3/day would probably be considered wizard-level.
A few examples of good classes that are rogue-level: Psychic Warrior, Duskblade, Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader. (I didn't add Rogue in here because people assume that UMD is part of the rogue's abilities, and if you're borrowing wizard tricks and boning reality through scrolls rather than innate abilities, you're basically wizard-level--you just have a monetary cost.) All of the classes I just mentioned basically play the same game that they played at level 5-ish as they do at level 20.
The cleric, on the other hand, is a good example of a wizard-level class. At the beginning, it's an incredibly strong meleer, but towards the end of its progression it starts playing rocket tag with the best of them (Implosion) as well as changing reality with a wave of his hand (Miracle, for example). Even though he gains access to world-changing spells towards the end of his progression, they're still taken into account, and the class is considered wizard-level. --Ghostwheel 15:23, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

Rocket launcher tag isn't really limited to Wizard level -- there's no reason stuff at Rogue level can't play rocket launcher tag too. I mean, the archetypical Rogue level class -- the Rogue -- basically exists to reliably kill one opponent per round. Surgo 16:20, October 13, 2009 (UTC)

Few big differences here. Let's remove the cheese of a Ring of Blink for the moment and look at a rogue who's flanking killing an enemy in one round. Could and should they do so? Yes. However, the requirements of such rocket tag are immense.

1. Have to have a flanking partner or get the opponent to be denied dex to AC without using wizards tricks.
2. Have to start next to an opponent (getting adjacent to some opponents can be a feat all by itself).
3. Must have a full-round action after starting next to the opponent.
4. Can't be grappled.
5. Can't be prone.
6. Have to hit AC.
7. Enemy can't have concealment of any sort.
8. Have to hit enemy (misc addition for everything else that stops characters from hitting enemies).

So this is far from rocket tag. Most meleers have to fulfill quite a few of the prereqs. In the end, they're playing the same game that they were at lower levels--just with more damage. Now let's compare to an actual rocket tagger.

1. Enemy must fail save. (Sometimes not even this.)
2. Enemy must be within line of sight/effect.
3. Enemy must be within range.
4. Should usually have at least a standard action available.

As you can see, actual rocket taggers use actual rockets--not slice-and-dice melee weapons in which they have to fulfill a number of prerequisites before being able to have a chance at killing an enemy. --Ghostwheel 00:24, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

Great, we can ignore Ring of Blink "cheese" (we'd also have to ignore the slightly less powerful Greater Invisibility "cheese" and Eversmoking Bottle "cheese" while we did that). I guess while we're sticking our heads in the sand we can also ignore all the Wizard-level cheese that makes things Wizard-level. So with any of what I just said adn more, Rogues still reliably kill one person a round. Rogues play the rocket launcher tag game as happily as the rest, what makes them different is they don't have the breadth and depth that the Wizard-level guys do (a fact that shows up on measures like the Same Game test). Surgo 11:27, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

Really not the same thing--Greater Invis and Eversmoking Bottle are fine. Notice how many creatures have tremorsense/blindsight/etc. Furthermore, even with a 50% miss chance enemies just need to hit once to grapple the rogue, who's then easily neutered. It's called "rocket tag" because it's done from afar, and is potentially a one-hit kill effect, it's not called, "Let me get close to you and have a full round of actions and be under a number of other prereqs in order to kill you." So bad analogy. You still haven't shown that rogues play rocket tag or bone reality without resorting to wizard tricks (I'm talking about things like UMDing a wand of Black Tentacles or upping the CL on an item that casts Blasphemy), or for that matter that any of the other above classes do so. --Ghostwheel 14:49, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

I haven't shown it? What part of activate your ring of blink and full attack with acid flasks and alchemist's fire (which strike as touch attacks, and also do not require you to be adjacent to an enemy) to reliably take out one person a round is so hard to follow? No UMD even required, unless you're facing undead or constructs (which isn't even a wizard trick). Surgo 17:57, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

Again, without that specific trick--whose ability to work is debateable, at that. A class's effectiveness should not rest on a single item that isn't one of the Big 6. --128.111.193.156 18:31, October 14, 2009 (UTC)