<LaptopGW> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRBcjsOt0_g Part of why I dislike VH-level gameplay
<LaptopGW> Lack of counterplay
<Foxwarrior> well, I'm not planning to click that link right now
<Foxwarrior> but does it have something to do with countering moves after you've seen them?
<LaptopGW> I added it to my user page, feel free to read it later and comment on my talk page as I'm going to sleep shortly
<LaptopGW> It's more about having options that create more options for opponents rather than limiting their options
<LaptopGW> Which is more fun for everyone
<LaptopGW> For example, let's say a character has a 10' emanation that deals damage to all enemies. You can choose to A. take them down as fast as possible using a meleer, B. stay out and attack other targets as a meleer, C. stick your ranged attackers on them, D. use a snare to stop them from getting in range to use that ability to deal damage
<LaptopGW> It opens choices, whereas a save or die/save or suck limits you strongly on what you can do
<LaptopGW> It removes virtually all choices made
<Foxwarrior> so, like Sanctuary
<LaptopGW> OTOH, if someone lands a solid fog on you, it limits your choices strongly. You can't do anything except spend multiple turn actions trying to get out of it. Wall of Ice hemisphere around you with a failed save? Only option is to cut away at it until it falls down
<LaptopGW> See what I mean?
<Foxwarrior> I think that's in some ways a false comparison
<LaptopGW> This assumes, of course, that you don't have precisely the right ability that can deal with whatever you're facing. If you do have it, then it just negates another creature's turn (and yours), and limits your option in that you HAVE to use that ability next turn
<Foxwarrior> the Save or Die is more comparable to a Rogue stabbing someone a bunch of times until it falls down
<LaptopGW> Are we assuming the rogue is A. automatically flanking, B. making a full attack with no problem, and C. dealing enough damage to take down an enemy in a single turn?
<Foxwarrior> especially C
<Foxwarrior> I guess if you don't assume A and B then you could argue that the rogue is presenting multiple options
<LaptopGW> Especially all of them, since all need to be in place for a rogue to be effective. You open up options by limiting any one of those, even if it's taking a move action to get out of flanking, taking the AoOs in order to not get full attacked
<Foxwarrior> "stand there, do whatever it is you're trying to do, and die next round; or run away"
<LaptopGW> Or use a defensive ability. Or use something that doesn't let them full attack
<LaptopGW> I'm still not seeing a false connection
<@Havvy> An ability that causes slow...
<LaptopGW> Sure, or staggered, or even 20% concealment or sickened can be huge when we're talking about multiple attacks
<LaptopGW> On the other hand, save or dies/sucks have no counterplay, and are terrible for system health. They are all or nothing, and leave nothing to be counterplayed against. There's no way you can react to them (except by having the precise counter, which is strategy, not counterplay, which is making your choices in combat matter)
<LaptopGW> If you don't think counterplay is healthy for a system and a good thing for it to be present, then I can see how you'd think VH-level gameplay is good. But if those are good things for the system, I can't see it being a good thing