<Foxwarrior> now how do I get idealistic? [On the subject of rules lite systems being "dumb", compared to systems where every eventuality is expressely written by the rules]
<Ghostwheel> Realize that lite rules systems allow for much more narrativistic games and embrace the roleplaying over the tactical combat. It's very difficult to get people scared, for example, in D&D, since everything is laid out and everyone understands most everything. OTOH, with Little Fears, Don't Rest Your Head, FATE, and the like, it's much easier to immerse yourself in the character
<Ghostwheel> Not saying it's impossible in D&D, but those systems target the areas needed in order to do so
<Ghostwheel> (All the systems I cited are more rules-lite than D&D)
<Ghostwheel> I'd tout my system, but I don't think anyone apart from myself has played it :-3
<Ghostwheel> One of the biggest differences between a gamist system like D&D and a narrativistic system like FATE, is that in the latter, oftentimes, your character's goal can be very different from your own. While in D&D, for the most part, both you and your character focus on "killing stuff and not dying", since that's where the system places its focus
<Ghostwheel> And it doesn't do other parts as well (like social stuff, which is the majority of the focus of the narrativistic games)
<Ghostwheel> (Or rather, not social stuff, but all the aspects of your character interacting with the world in a way that doesn't include beating enemies over the head)
<Ubergeek> you can role play in DnD.... it just is not typical... and some GMs balk at it
<Ghostwheel> Ubergeek: I didn't say you couldn't, but that is not the place where the system focuses on
<Ghostwheel> Thus, it does those things less well
<Foxwarrior> what do you mean by this differing goal idea?
<Ghostwheel> Let's say your character is a drug-dealer, who's addicted to his own crack, or whatever. Your character's goal is entirely on getting his next fix, making money, etc. OTOH, your goal might be to have your character develop to the point where he's no longer addicted, and that he becomes a decent human being
<Ghostwheel> Foxwarrior: That way, your character's immediate goals, and your goals from the majority of the scenes, can be quite different, and your character can get himself into trouble that makes you cringe, but you think he'll be a better person for it and develop, wheereas in D&D your immediate goal is to kill the monster you're fighting
<Foxwarrior> so the problem is really that combat encounters aren't very great for this kind of subtlety
<Ghostwheel> Right, that's why D&D does these things less well, and that's where D&D places its focus
<Ghostwheel> It's not bad. I enjoy the tactical wargame immensely. But it's not everything you can do from a tabletop RPG
<Foxwarrior> so how does FATE help you act like a drug-dealer scumbag you wish was a better person?
<Ghostwheel> Mostly through aspects. For example, you could have a bunch of aspects, and then have one where your character has a decent side to him that's not entirely evilbad. Keep invoking that aspect, time after time again, and slowly your character changes as he goes through things and gets positive reinforcement from invoking that aspect
<Foxwarrior> and you rely on the DM to invoke the other aspects to keep your character from seeming too nice?
<Ghostwheel> Sure. Or they invoke the environmental aspects. Or whatever fits the story.
<Ghostwheel> But the focus is less on beating enemies over the head, and more on the character, and how it develops/changes, and its interaction and effect with the NPCs and the world at large
<Ghostwheel> That's the focus of more narrativistic games
<Ghostwheel> I quite like the GMC update for that [for nWoD], where you gain beats as you fail, as well as breaking points
<Ghostwheel> People think oWoD was a narrativistic game, but that's not true, since its rules primarily focused on combat applications and the like. GMC actually makes it a bit more narrativistic in that it rewards you for failing and interacting with your environment. Failure often leads to change, good or bad, and either way, it's a way to develop a character
<Ghostwheel> As long as it doesn't end in critical existance failure
<Foxwarrior> have you looked at Fiasco?
<Ghostwheel> Yeah, played a session of it. Was quite enjoyable. Entirely narrativistic, no gamist elements whatsoever
<Ghostwheel> Or simulationist, for that matter
<Foxwarrior> so I think there's more than one type of rules lite game
<Foxwarrior> *rules-lite RPG
<Ghostwheel> Little Fears, for example, is extremely different from, say, Fiasco
<Ghostwheel> (It's a horror game where you play very young children, ages 5-11, or so, IIRC)
<Ghostwheel> I especially like Don't Rest Your Head. That setting and system were... so creepy and amazing