User talk:Luigifan18:Viewtiful Monarch (3.5e Prestige Class)

That Progression

Ur-Priest and that Beholder thing use this progression, and are among the cheesiest cheese around because of it. The BAB requirement at least can't be worked around (I think), which fixes the larger half of the problem, but I can't help but suspect that the progression is still bad for other more insidious reasons. --Foxwarrior (talk) 04:17, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Beholder mage I've heard of (yeeesh), but what's an ur-priest? --Luigifan18 (talk) 04:30, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Complete Divine/Book of Vile Darkness Cleric Atheist with essentially this progression, but you can get into it easily at level 6. --Foxwarrior (talk) 04:34, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I honestly had no idea that any other classes had this progression. I came up with it off the top of my head, thinking "hmm, this is basically a wizard with caster level issues, but full spellcasting progression, a decent base attack bonus, and a bunch of special abilities... I'll give it fewer spell slots to balance it out." --Luigifan18 (talk) 04:36, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

It's not full spellcasting progression; full spellcasting progression gives one spell level every 2 levels. --Foxwarrior (talk) 04:38, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Since this is a prestige class, I had little choice but to compress it. It does start pretty late, though, so it gets high-level spells roughly when a wizard does anyways. (And what is its spellcasting progression called?)

*sigh* I was going somewhere with that, but I seem to have forgotten. Anyways, this isn't like the Viewtiful Shogun where I can actually show you a video of the inspiration. There's pretty much no footage of the final battle in Viewtiful Joe: Double Trouble, much to my chagrin. --Luigifan18 (talk) 04:56, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

It's generally known as fast progression (though if you're asking for the purpose of the tags, I don't know, full is fine. I'm not apt to mess with the tags. Maybe Other?)

In an effort to de-cheese the ur-priest I made the False Prophet (3.5e Prestige Class). Did you see what I did to kill the cheese? -- Eiji-kun (talk) 05:49, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

That's only one level different from this class, Eiji. I guess you (almost) agree with Luigifan. --Foxwarrior (talk) 05:51, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

To quantify my unease: when leveling to 8, getting 1st level spells is nothing: a level 7 character is an encounter level of 7 with or without a level 1 Wizard companion, and buying items for the 1st level spells you want doesn't put a very significant drain on your monetary resources. Getting 9th level spells at level 17 is so great a level 17 Wizard has nothing other than spells; seven levels in other classes is probably better than none, even if they're only the first 7 levels.

If I was going for a delayed good casting progression, I'd probably start at 3rd if you enter at level 8 or 9, then get 4th at the next level, then one spell level every two class levels thereafter. --Foxwarrior (talk) 06:43, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean Fox, though I admit I haven't really looked in depth in Luigi's class. I postly commented to answer what kind of progression it was (fast) and offer my solution to the problem fast progression has. The cheese with Ur-Priest isn't (just) fast progression but that people go Something/Ur-Priest 1/Cool PrC 10, avoiding the underwhelming Ur-Priest class features while reaping the benefits of fast progression in the PrC of your choice.

I agree with your analysis that getting 1st level spells late game is not important. The trick with making fast progressions like this is to provide other features at early levels, making the low level spells extra, and then ease up on high levels when you've caught up your spell progression with other casters. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 07:23, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Ease up on high levels? I point you to the lack of high-level spell slots - only 2 each for 7th, 8th, and 9th-level spells at level 10. Yeah, there's VFX Refresh, but by the time she gets that, she's character level 30. And considering the VFX abilities, the spellcasting as a whole is basically extra. (VFX Mirage in particular... yes, Queen Heinderella really does that in Viewtiful Joe: Double Trouble, and it's exactly as annoying as you think. You have to use your unwieldy VFX Slide to touch her images in the background while they rapidly fire energy orbs at you, and she does it every time you knock off one of her life bars. Even on the lowest difficulty level, she does it at least twice. Fun.) --Luigifan18 (talk) 15:20, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Just looked at the False Prophet; that's a clever solution to dipping you cooked up, Eiji. Not getting high-level spells without actual levels in false prophet is a nice way to force people to go all the way. But as for progression differences between that and Viewtiful Monarch... uh, more orisons, fewer low-level spells, and more high-level spells?!? I know the False Prophet doesn't have as many class features as the Viewtiful Monarch, but come on. That... just seems unfair to the wizard, who has to slog all the way through a featureless class with poor BAB and pitiful hit die just to sling around utterly reality-wrecking magic 4 times in a day. --Luigifan18 (talk) 17:01, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

About the spell list...

The Viewtiful Monarch intentionally gets a large range of spells, from the spell lists of various classes. But they do all have a common theme - they're visually impressive, or the Viewtiful Monarch can project herself through them. Spells whose effects are subtle or take a long time to be felt don't get to be on the spell list. Also, spells that deal with religion or the undead generally don't get to appear on her spell list, and she doesn't get a lot of healing magic more potent than the cure, repair, and inflict series. There are some things that an arcane caster just shouldn't be able to do, after all. With that said... are there any spells I included that don't actually seem to have a place on her spell list? --Luigifan18 (talk) 16:53, 4 December 2012 (UTC)