Talk:Barbarian, Sublime (3.5e Class)

Time for a play by play, writing this as I see it.

• Looks like it runs like a Crusader, gaining maneuvers in the middle of combat. Cool.
• Wow, lots of maneuvers known.

This is mostly so that you have an actual choice when it comes to maneuver selection. If you have to pick the same six over and over, there's no choice whatsoever, and later-on, you need options.

The increased number of known without also increasing the number of replacements you get to make means you're going to have a lower average maneuver level than a guy with fewer maneuvers in his pool. Might want to let them swap one out per level instead of every other level.

• All good saves, really? I could argue good Reflex, but Will?

Because a) all good saves don't mean all that much, and b) remember that you need both items and stats to stay relevant as a melee guy. I want to reduce both of these dependencies for this class, and the way I did that was basically to give them all good saves. Think about it - Dexterity, which feeds your Reflex save, is going to be stat number four or even five! Even Wisdom is tertiary at best. Additionally, you're meant to be tanky - your abilities pretty much spell it out. If you get taken out by a mind-affecting something, you suck at your job. To say nothing of the fact that all good saves isn't all that huge.

It's not that huge, but they could use a weak point. Since fort, will, and AC are right out, reflex is what's left. And really, would you expect a barbarian to dodge?

• EWP is nice. Doesn't seem barbariany though. I don't see them as the sort of focus on weapons as their gimmick.

Again, SOP when it comes to melee guys, as EWP is a stupid feat that should die in a fire.

• Disciplines are fitting.
• Looks like they can only do maneuvers in a rage. Ok.
• Can't rage out of combat and thus can't use maneuvers out of combat. Annoying but ok.
• Rage is lessened, modified slightly. Understandable given maneuvers are good, and barbarian-normal isn't a bad class. Rage is delicious. And... wait, what? It has a 1/6th chance of just spontaneously ending? Why..... why would you do that? Especially if your maneuvers are tied to it?

Changed it now, not sure wtf was up with me when I wrote it.

• Wilderness, ok.
• Speaking, ok.
• Uncanny Dodge, ok.
• Fight Me Instead is a good tanking ability.
• Keen Senses is... interesting.
• Wilderness Companion, I prefer if it was like the druid, ie apparently CR -3, but a minor quibble. Personally I'd just link it to druids myself.

The reason I didn't link it directly to the druid is mostly because the way druid companions advance is kinda weird. Additionally, I think this gives you slightly better options without letting you cart anything overly-smart around.

• Leader of the Tribe. Leadership? Ok, so its just followers and thats fine, it just seems odd. Flavor issue I suppose, but thats just me.

Check the new writeup. The flavour issues have been dealt to.

• Athelete, yes.
• Spirits Blessing, save bonuses are good, but given the all good saves, also excessive IMO. Not failing on nat 1s is fine.

This is basically what they could get with a Cloak of Resistance. I'm just making them not have to spend a greater proportion of their wealth simply staying relevant. Far from good - this is a non-ability, as frankly, you should have it anyway. The game expects this.

• Untameable: My gut says there's something wrong with this but I'm not sure what. I think I have issues on how the rage currently works, and by association this.

Hopefully addressed.

• Ethereal Jaunt, ehhh.... its a barbarian. That seems too magic even for them.

See new writeup for the flavour justification of this. I've also reduced uses per day significantly.

• Greater Rage, ok.
• Spirit Sight... True Seeing perma. Ehhhh. Seems too early IMO for a rogue class.

true seeing is a 5th level spell, thus available at 9th. There's nothing too early about it, unless you want to argue that somehow, rogue-level monsters aren't the same. I have, however, limited it somewhat.

I don't think his complaint was with the true seeing part, but with the perma part (or it should have been anyway :-p). People who are throwing around true seeing at this level are doing so 1 or 2 times a day for a few minutes at a time. This ability is substantially better than that, since it's on-demand and limited only by your need to use a swift action for something else. Not sure that's a bad thing, but it is a strong thing.

• At will etherealness. Flavor issues and power issues.

Flavour has been addressed. To limit the power issues, I've limited uses per day.

• Death Ward is fine.
• Reactive Rage, ok.
• Contact Other Plane, ok. When I think barbarian spiritualism, I do think of this. More mystic divination, less turning into ghosts.
• At will greater restore/heal? Really? This is rogue level? I mean I know Devoted Spirit exists (which this class doesn't have) but they have to be fighting to do that. I dislike strongly.

Limited uses of both, which should be better.

• Plane Shift, same problem with barbarians casting un-barbarian magic.

It represents the spirits leading them to where they need to go. Plane shifting capability that late isn't really much of an issue, and hopefully my re-flavour addresses this.

• Mighty Rage, fine.
• Raging forever. At this point, fine and all.

My overall judgement, not rogue level, too strong, and some things oddly out of place flavorwise. Will review other class now.

(Rating for both now: IMO neither are ready for a showing, though the Skald is less problematic ATM.) -- Eiji-kun 00:45, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

To make reading easier, I have added indented comments where deemed suitable. - MisterSinister 20:29, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

My 2cp added to above. - Tarkisflux 21:29, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Implemented Tarkis' suggestions. - MisterSinister 21:36, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Actually... just ran numbers on their maneuvers and replacements... and the schedule has some weird stuff in it. Have an editable link to a google doc so you can see what I'm talking about: linky. They keep level 1 maneuvers until level 11, and level 3 maneuvers until level 19. Given their random draw, this may make them perform substantially worse than anticipated, since they will have a solid chance of drawing lower than appropriate level maneuvers. Starting them at 7 and giving them an extra every other level up to 10 with a swap per level might work better, or even just a flat 9. Not really sure though, hence the editable table for you. - Tarkisflux 22:44, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit - Don't mind that last bit. I'm a tard today. Since they only get to prep 6, the delay in losing low level stuff isn't a big deal. They just won't prep them if they don't want to use them. - Tarkisflux 23:11, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

OK, sure. I was about to say something, but that works too. - MisterSinister 23:13, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Review, the sequal

Hmmm.

I'll be honest, I still don't like it, but it's better than before. Limiting stuff like the heal and all did wonders. Still, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Confiring with LD, he says it's high rogue... and I suppose an arguement could be made for that, but if its high rogue, I think it's really high rogue. The other part may just be some bias, I have flavor issues with the ghosting parts. I don't associate barbarians with spirits in that kind of manner. For that I'll admit some bias. Anyway, there's my 2 copper. -- Eiji-kun 23:33, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, to be honest, I can rethink the ghosty parts, since I do admit that they are a bit jarring. However, I do want it to still be an ability that can be beneficial both in and outside combat, and that stays with the 'spirits' flavour. What would you suggest? - MisterSinister 21:10, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Just off the top of my head, more divinations and foretelling, and the ability to see through illusions "Stupid wizards with smoke and mirrors, Krug's axe see right through it!" Also perhals self-buffs, themed to be "Channeling the Spirit of the Angry Bear or Grandfather Kickass". -- Eiji-kun 23:20, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Having re-examined things, I think it truly IS wizard-level, and have amended it accordingly. - MisterSinister 06:54, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Well...

SecondDeath777 likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.

Frankly, I can dig it, but it's missing a little pizzazz. Pffft, tch, kek- okay. No Wild Moon...OR Domestic Tarrasque? ...you like heresy, don't you, Squidward? I think it would benefit from Occult Sovereignty and/or Golem Heart, as the former strikes me as "Fuck fancy tools, I have grit.", while also applying a good edge against casters. The latter kinda just has the same vibe as this whole class: Brutish, but calculated. I don't know what it is, but something about this class just SCREAMS AC bonus. Wisdom? Constitution? Hell, maybe Strength if you're feeling wacky. Never seen Strength to AC before. But yeah, I think giving it an Attribute Bonus to AC would be a good move, given as those are a pretty regular occurance for Sublime classes, and this one hardly strikes me as the type who reacts to getting whacked all that harshly. I could easily see blows glancing off their mighty pecs, or their instincts encouraging last second dodges. But yeah, other than that, I dig it. I dig it hard. Gimme those disciplines and that AC bonus, and we've got a winner. And you'll get a favor.