Talk:Sharpshooter (3.5e Class)

Comments

wow. 200 extra damage at 20th level. wow. --NameViolation 11:59, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

Have you seen some of the damage meleers put out at level 20? 200 damage is decent but not anything to write home about at that level. Plus, it requires an additional defense to be passed (Fort save). --Ghostwheel 12:01, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

See also: Harm. --Andrew Arnott (talk, email) 19:55, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

yeah, but this can hit from a half mile away. lets see a melle do that. and harm cant bring you below 1 hp, and is touch. ranged should be weaker than melee since it has the advantage of not gettin hit. also, how often do aim points refres? i didn't see taht. and shouldn't the stuff be based off class level not character level?--NameViolation 23:41, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

Alrighty, one at a time.

1. Please learn to indent?
2. A mile is 5280 feet, right? Remember that you take -1 to spot things for every 10' they are away from you. That means at half a mile you're taking a penalty to spot of 264. How are you going to target things, much less shoot at them? And what you're calling "weaker" ends up being "just plain useless".
3. Aim Points refresh as explained under Aim pool.

Anything else? --Ghostwheel 23:47, October 31, 2009 (UTC)

Note that harm is much weaker than, say, finger of death. It is just more comparable. Note that it is also a 6th level spell (maxing out at 15th level). This ability is 20th. It should be at least 4 times the power (given the exponential factor of spells and abilities) and I would argue given the range that it totally is balanced correctly. --Andrew Arnott (talk, email) 00:33, November 1, 2009 (UTC)

Balance Level

This class should be at Wizard balance point, because it's much, much stronger than the Rogue. His sneak attack (sneaky shot) can actually be applied to anything, even opponents immune to critical hits, and be used from tripple range (of course, as you gain levels, but still). It also have a lot of features at least as awesome as the sneak attack, and the sneak attack is arguably the main feature of the rogue (in combat, of course). A class that has not only an improved version, but also lots of other features is not on the same level as a rogue. (I acutally playtested it, made them fight under various circumstances at different levels and the rogue only chances are when he surprises and gets a round of sneak attacks...)

Compare to something like a warblade prepping up with Avalanche of Blades + Combat Rhythm followed up by Raging Mongoose + Time Stands Still--you'll see that the damage on this one is nothing. Alternatively, to a basic combat rogue... Plus, even 1% concealment will shut down sneak attack. --Ghostwheel 04:46, February 8, 2010 (UTC)

Not to mention rogues are only at the eponymous level of balance because of UMD, so yeah. -- Jota 06:30, February 8, 2010 (UTC)

I actually think this class is great, and will be suggesting it to my players as the ranged character of the party. My point is that it's above the rogue level. My comparison wasn't with the warblade, but with the rogue itself, since it's the "rogue" level of balance as stated by Jota. The only thing that the rogues get is the UMD, and even though it's a good ability, it's only very effective if you don't have a wizard in the group, or else the wizard's magical abilities and Magic Devices usage shades the rogue's ones. That said, the Sharpshooter is much, much more powerful than the rogue in combat. It can sneak attack anything, add it's Dexterity bonus in damage and even do extra attacks with Countershot. Other than that, it has AoE Hail of Arrows, which gets to be an excellent ability in late levels, doing massive damage to all enemies around.--ElfsMaster 18:19, February 8, 2010 (UTC)

You seem to forget a number of important points: the sharpshooter needs to accumulate aim points against an enemy to activate those abilities, and might not gain enough to activate all those abilities, and should he switch targets he loses the aim points he's gathered so far. Furthermore, specifically for sneak attack, it's fairly hard to sneak attack often and consistently from range, which means that you'll need 2 other characters flanking the target. And then there's the fact that a combat rogue can pull off more than a sharpshooter--against a single target, which is where they excel, while a sharpshooter is better at debuffing targets and AoE damage.

As for UMD not being effective if there's a wizard in the group... gravestrike/vinestrike/golemstrike UMD'ed can let you freely sneak attack monsters that are usually immune. Wraithstrike turns all your attacks into touch attacks, make it so that you virtually always hit. Divine Power gives you the BAB of a fighter. Need I go on? Adding dex to damage is easy--pick up a level of swordsage and the Shadow Blade feat. Same for many ranged combatants, with the Dead Eye feat in Dragon Compendium.

One thing that I don't think that I'm expressing well is that in truth, rogues aren't a really good example the rogue-balance level, especially when you ignore UMD and take it out of the equation. See the combat rogue for a build that focuses on actual damage, rather than a fairly dedicated skill monkey. Alternatively, take a look at the swordsage or warblade--both are classes that are very firmly in the rogue category of balance, while being able to use their abilities all day long. If you want to compare it to a per-day character, duskblades are a good representation of what a rogue-level class can do.

In short, when you compare to other rogue-level classes, the sharpshooter's damage isn't all that impressive--and damage-via-attacks isn't that impressive anyway, since you need to bypass so many defenses (AC, illusions, concealment, cover, etc), especially when compared to relevent examples from the rogue-level balance point.

All that said, if you still feel strongly that this class would be better rated at the wizard level, you could always post here and if your arguments are cogent and relevant, you can get the rating changed against the creator's will. And feel free to do so--I won't be offended if you do :-) --Ghostwheel 19:00, February 8, 2010 (UTC)

I would normally surmise the wizard level as being able to do things outside of combat (fly, teleport, etc.) or save-or-die effects as well as abilties like color spray or glitterdust than can end a whole encounter in one round. The sharpshooter lacks these for the most part (you may be able to clear a room with Grim Shot + Deadly Shower but that's about it) and does not gain them directly as a result of is class features, so I would not deem it Wizard level despite its combat superiority to the standard rogue. - TG Cid 19:36, February 8, 2010 (UTC)

You actually couldn't combine those two at the same time, since Grim Shot is a standard action while Deadly Shower is a Full-Round action ;-) --Ghostwheel 19:46, February 8, 2010 (UTC)

Team Fortress Sniper?

After all, the longer you aim at someone the more damage you do... --Ghostwheel 07:17, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

Be polite. Be efficient. And most of all, have a plan to kill everybody you meet. -- Eiji Hyrule 07:23, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

BOOM. Headshot. --Ghostwheel 07:25, December 9, 2009 (UTC)