SRD talk:Saving Throw
As a DM, I go by the rule of Area of Effects that don't make any sense to not get a save from, don't get a save.
Example: If you're standing right next to the detonation point of a Fireball, you get no save, because there is no possible way for someone without terrifyingly high reflex to dodge that.
Lightning Bolt, however, does not follow this rule because it is only 1 square wide and there's an ability to actually dodge that. Arguably, it's impossible to have reflexes faster than lightning, but this is magical lightning, otherwise it wouldn't hit anything because it would be impossible to aim, and I'm getting off on a tangent.
- So you make Fireball have a touch attack, ala Meteor Swarm? Makes Fireball stronger. Didn't really need the power boost. In any case, I do not advise this path of thinking, as it leads down the road of trying too hard to make things make "sense" (like you said, it's magic... which is why you can dodge that lightning and in turn, dodge that fireball). Though, one thing you may be mistaking (and a common mistake) is that reflex = jumping out of the way. While this is most common, reflex is simply getting your defenses up in time. A flourish of the cloak, shielding yourself from burning flame... touching weapon to ground and channeling the lightning bolt harmlessly into the earth... a sudden duck and cover, rolling to smother flames before they deal damage.... this is what reflex covers. If you are having trouble imagining dodging a fireball, perhaps consider shielding yourself from it with your lightning-quick reflexes. -- Eiji Hyrule 05:51, April 4, 2010 (UTC)
- Y'know, if someone had a shield, I'd allow a reflex save, because shields are useful in blocking fire, and can be used very quickly. But cloaks? Cloaks would do more harm than good because, generally, they're flammable, and if yours isn't, it's either enchanted to resist flame, or is so heavy you're getting reflex penalties because it's made from metal or thick leather.
- Channeling lightning through a weapon makes little to no sense, either. If we follow that logic, and even realistically it makes no sense, then everyone auto-saves against lightning if they have metal on their armor, because the metal armor will be touching together all the way to the boots.
- Duck and cover would take too long unless you saw the spell coming from far away.
- Maybe I'm using too much realism in the game, but the game is not nearly so enjoyable if it is so obviously a game.
- (Before I begin, sign your posts... it's four of these guys "~" at the end of your post.)
- You're thinking a bonfire, fireball isn't continuous. It's more akin to having hydrogen blow up in your face, very brief. To catch on fire, you need something to be exposed to heat long enough for the heat to be transferred. If you need to imagine what I mean, ever swipe your hand through a candle's flame? Your finger didn't burn off, did it. Now hold it there for a few seconds. After you get out of the hospital, you'll see the time does make a difference. X3 But seriously, unless the cloak is covered in oil, it's not catching flame. By that logic, every time someone is hit by a fireball, they ignite. That doesn't happen, in fact it takes a very specific effect (a fire elemental's Burn, a spell specifically for it like Combust) to achieve ignition.
- The same goes for metal incidentally, even though metal heats up a LOT faster than nonmmetals (making cloaks, ironically, better at resisting heat). A brief flash of boomfire won't do it. You have an argument for continuous flame, but that's about it. Also, D&D assumes that unless you're flat-footed, you are omnipresently aware of all things around you, so duck and cover is perfectly reasonable, especially in the world of 50 mph lightning.
- The grounding thing was just an example, but the example has one thing that an armored guy doesn't have. Armor touches your skin. Your sword doesn't, thanks to the handle. Those things are typically a nonconductive nonmetal, for the grip. Anyway, by and large, that's the fluff, you would only worry about the fluff matching the crunch, and that just takes some creativity on how you just achieved the amazing feat of X Y and Z. -- Eiji Hyrule 06:16, April 4, 2010 (UTC)
- 220.127.116.11 06:25, April 4, 2010 (UTC)
- False analogy, I think. A fireball isn't a puff of flame, or it would do next to no damage. And cloth objects exposed to any serious fire is going to ignite, but that makes Fire spells so very broken that I understand not enforcing it.
- And metal heats up faster, yes, but that is heat, and fire, while hot, is not heat.
- And armor will have clothing underneath it, or it'll rub your skin bloody. Preventing skin contact.
- Point on the weapon, though the metal beneath the grip negates some of the shielding, I believe.
- Almost got it, at the end, not the beginning.
- Well, from the instantaneous duration, the fireball can't be present for long. I'd compare it to an explosion, though it lacks the whole "pressure wave" deal and is more like "for the next half second, you're in a fire" deal. You did bring up one thing of interest.... this is fire, not heat damage. Heat "cooks" you but this isn't cooking you, it's attempting to get you to combust. For the unattended objects, they won't be moving and so if they can burn, they will. For people, though, you're in constant motion, and avoiding being caught on flame (the passing your finger quickly through flame thing). Ah.... and there I think we have a good and universal fluff to explain reflex saves... against fire anyway.
- Reflex would be your ability on how quickly you can put the fire out. Everyone will be able to put the fire out (because the spell doesn't have a burn effect), some people will be able to put it out faster with a quick smother or running away from the flames (save successful), and the unusually dexterous can even avoid damage completely (evasion). By the way, have you ever seen someone outrunning flame? I cannot for the life of me recall where I saw this, only that it was for a movie where he was doused in gas and lit... and while the guy was protected of course, it was only that flame retardant gel stuff, so he'd burn if he stood still. His goal was to run, literally having the fire trailing behind him, surviving only by the gas vapors in his wake as he ran from it. Came out pretty alright. I.... I got on a tangent.
- Well, before I get off talking on random trivia, I suppose there is also one other problem (or boon, if you see it as such) to such a system, and that is it awards creative players by returning their saving throw, if they can justify their save. Which I think they should be doing anyway, I'm just not down removing the current mechanics until they fulfill the fluff requirements. I consider myself a fairly creative person, so I could probably justify just about anything someone gives me, but it's not so fair to Bob the Uncreative next to me, who isn't versed on the ways and means to do things.
- Have you considered, rather than removing saves, you apply circumstance bonuses or penalties? It retains the mechanics, while fulfilling the "realism" you might require, as well as still awarding creative action. -- Eiji Hyrule 06:44, April 4, 2010 (UTC)
- "Have you considered, rather than removing saves, you apply circumstance bonuses or penalties? It retains the mechanics, while fulfilling the "realism" you might require, as well as still awarding creative action."
- This, this I like.
- This I believe satisfies what I'm looking for in this debate. This excellent solution effectively solves the question.
- Honestly, I'm rather embarrassed to not have thought of this, I do this all the time with other things.
- I doubt we'll ever agree on what Fireball does exactly, but that's irrelevant.
- Well, then, cheers, mate! I hope it improves you and your players' gaming experience. -- Eiji Hyrule 07:31, April 4, 2010 (UTC)