Talk:Halberdier (3.5e Class)
Looks like a good tripper-type zone controller; just one or two things that stood out to me.
- Pikeman - Halberds already have reach if I remember correctly--do you mean to give them 15' reach with the weapon through this ability? If not, perhaps another way to word it (and perhaps replace it) is the Short Haft feat from Player's Handbook 2? I think granting them that would be fine at first level.
- Improved Trip - Good to give them, but perhaps push it up to level 3? That way, classes that just want Improved Trip without having to invest in the prereqs won't just dip one level into the class.
- Superior Shield + Grizzled Veteran - with both of these, you can easily cross the RNG limit at higher levels; perhaps remove the second one and instead allow them to completely ignore size modifiers when tripping, unless it's in their favor in a similar way to this feat?
That's all that catches my eye off the bat, but good class overall--the only other thing that I can think of is that it might get a little boring just tripping and attacking every round. --Ghostwheel 16:51, December 6, 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for the feedback, Ghost.
- According to the entry on this site halberds don't already have reach (which technically prevents it from being used as a polearm in the traditional sense) so I put in Pikeman to make them equal with a longspear or lance. And since it's already a normal melee weapon, the ability pretty much does the same thing as Short Haft but essentially in reverse, therefore I figured it was fine the way it was.
- What if the Improved Trip only applied to using a halberd? That would detract from its possible dippableness (not a word but bear with me) while also preserving what I feel is an essential part of the class even at level 1.
- Since I suppose Superior Shield already allows you to compensate for not being able to use heavy armor without another class, I agree that Grizzled Vet isn't really necessary. I was thinking, however, that perhaps it could make him use his Int modifier to attack and damage rolls instead of Str. 14 levels is enough of a commitment that there's no possibility for dip abuse, and if anything it strengthens the emphasis on Intelligence. My only initial consternation was that Combat Insight (which essentially does the same thing) was an epic feat, but since the possibility of an abusive dip isn't really there I don't see much of a problem with it. I also thought about totally removing size modifiers unless they were helpful, but was concerned that they would offer him an advantage that might be too much.
- What do you think? - TG Cid 17:17, December 6, 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, right you are on the halberds. Thought they were an actual reach weapon for some reason. Oh vell.
- Even if it applied to only halberds, effectively a single dip makes them a reach weapon and gives Improved Trip--not so good. Though until level 3, you're going to kill most things in one hit, so I don't think delaying it is a problem.
- Getting X to attack on top of everything else can be problematic though--here's another idea; why not add int to trip checks? I think that fits with the class's flavor, as well as allowing them to trip bigger enemies. --Ghostwheel 17:21, December 6, 2009 (UTC)
- I see your point with Improved Trip, so do you think Executioner should be moved up as well then? Without Improved Trip, you can't attack someone after a trip, so the only way executioner is worth something is if your opponent is already prone. Would it not make a difference since you still at the stage where most opponents die in one hit?
- I was thinking for Grizzled Vet that the Int would replace Strength, still giving you a boost but not doubling up (in the same way the tenken's Superior Finesse replaces Str with Dex). Finally, Expert Trip (level 8) already allows you to substitute your Int for Str on trip checks (I thought that might actually be something that could double up, but didn't just to be safe). - TG Cid 17:31, December 6, 2009 (UTC)
- Nah, I can see synergy possibilities with Executioner at that low level--if you have another meleer in the party, BAB discrepancy of a psychic warrior (for example) wouldn't matter as much, which would let you do combination attacks of one tripping, and the halbedier finishing them off for good.
- And yeah, if you're replacing rather than stacking, it should be fine. --Ghostwheel 17:33, December 6, 2009 (UTC)
- Done. And while I see how tripping and attacking can get boring, I tried to give some options so that it wouldn't be all he did. - TG Cid 17:48, December 6, 2009 (UTC)
- Was looking at the class again, and saw something I missed before - Clean Kill. Feels off to get a (basically) at will SoD, especially for someone of rogue-level balance... --Ghostwheel 05:47, December 13, 2009 (UTC)
- In that case, do you have any reccomendations for alternatives? I thought perhaps something that simulated the effects of Knock-Down, while of course not being as game-breaking as 10 damage. Maybe if you hit with iterative attack or something? Or perhaps something that goads the opponent into charging? If you have another suggestion I'm all ears. - TG Cid 13:28, December 13, 2009 (UTC)
- How about, "If you hit an opponent with two (or more) attacks in a single round you get a free trip"? That's probably more balanced than just a free trip on every hit *nod* --Ghostwheel 14:22, December 13, 2009 (UTC)
- Do you think it would be unfair to also give a free trip attempt after dealing Tip of the Spear damage (so basically when you charge and ready against a charge) in addition to when you hit with two consectuive attacks? Given the circumstantial usage of those two abilities, it would seem beneficial to allow him to trip there as well. I know that with some feats you can make a full attack when you charge (so there could be some overlap there) but it still seems like it could prove useful.
- One last thought: what would you think about his recieving a number of attacks of opportunity equal to his Intelligence modifier, since Combat Reflexes may not help him an awful lot if he's wearing medium armor? It may be an awful lot to give all that at level 12, but it might work in my opinion. - TG Cid 20:50, December 13, 2009 (UTC)
- On second thought, the tripping should probably be the level 12 ability and maybe the AoO's should be a different ability that comes sooner so that you don't have to burn a feat on Combat Reflexes to get a lesser benefit until level 12. Maybe level 4 or 6. - TG Cid 02:17, December 14, 2009 (UTC)
→Reverted indentation to one colon
- Sort of a derail, but an idea came to me; why not squeeze this class down into ten levels, in the same manner as the knight? I think 10 levels would fit to get everything you want in there (perhaps cut down on some of the scaling bits to retain rogue-level), and leave room for a character to expand further, for the same reasons as those of the knight for being 10 levels long. --Ghostwheel 10:45, December 16, 2009 (UTC)
- That sounds interesting in theory, but I'm not sure how well it would translate given the lack of other halberd-focused material. The good thing about the knight IMO was that it was more broad in scope than this, which is pretty narrow in its conception (this isn't supposed to be a condemnation of my own work, I'm just pointing out that it is rather specific given that all of the abilities concentrate on the halberd) and thus doesn't seem to leave that much room for expansion. There's no potential for a charger-type character since the cavalier requires the longsword or lance, and most of the other classes I've seen that allow the character to choose a particular weapon to specialize in don't seem to follow the same track as this does. There might be room for expansion; I just don't really see it. - TG Cid 18:24, December 16, 2009 (UTC)
Mind if I add the grimoire category at the bottom? --Ghostwheel 06:47, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
- If you find it compatible ith those rules, by all means go ahead. - TG Cid 15:04, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
|Ghostwheel likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.|
|This class serves the well as a "zone controller", stopping enemies in their tracks and leaving them open to attacks from friends by tripping them. Only worry is that tripping every round might eventually become boring, though if you're looking for a vanilla tripper, this class is probably the way to go.|
Been mulling over this possibility for a little while now, but since the prospect of introducing it to the Grimoire games was brought up I now have a good opportunity to discuss it. I'm thinking about revising Grizzled Veteran, since in Grimoire the Spiritual Weapon feat can be taken much earlier for exactly the same effect and in just about any game such replacers are normally available before level 14.
Plus, I was thinking that the level 20 capstone could maybe use more of a boost, but my head could still be in the clouds of Wizard-level on this particular point. It's just that looking at it now, it looks a little tame to me. - TG Cid 15:19, September 9, 2010 (UTC)