Talk:Monstrous Player Characters (3.5e Variant Rule)

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	Spanambula likes this article and rated it 3 of 4.
	Like Ghostwheel says, this isn't perfect, but it is the best compromise I've seen anywhere. Very well thought-out, and nicely done.

How do I solve the problem of even-CR monsters potentially being stronger choices than odd-CR monsters? (Since you take 50% racial levels for even-CR monsters, and more for odd-CR monsters.)

For the most extreme example, a CR 3 and 4 monster have 2 racial HD each, but that's 66% of the CR 3's HD/CR, while it's only 50% o the CR 4's HD/CR.

One thought is to reduce the racial ability score bonuses (+2 to only one ability score? No bonuses to ability scores?), but I'm not sure if that's too hard of a nerf or not. --Ghostwheel (talk) 03:23, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Monster CR doesn't really translate well to player power anyways. Even look at your Succubus example: is it really fair for players to have access to unlimited teleporting at 6th level? Or being able to have four permanent monster lackeys? You already know my reservations with the monster CRs in 3.5 anyways though. This variant is just putting that imbalance on the player's side. So, I don't expect some sweeping rule for even or odd CR monsters to make much of a difference to the outcome. Some monsters are going to have grossly overpowered abilities for their CR and some are going to be grossly underpowered. --Aarnott (talk) 13:53, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

You know I have the same reservations. That said, players will want to play monsters regardless, and not just pale imitations that follow the same power as PCs.

Now let's pretend for a moment that monsters were created perfectly, and that CR meant what is says it does--that a monster of CR X has abilities that are in-line with a level X character (that is, basically, what it boils down to, more or less). Players might still be gimped playing that race were in the case due to a lack of scaling of abilities.

As for the specific example, it's level 7 :-P Though yes, that doesn't make a huge difference. Still, isn't that better than having them waste 12 levels on their fantasy of playing a succubus and being *entirely* useless? Or not being able to progress any other shtick? Or having a complete glass jaw HP-wise to compensate for their utility? Or to fall off the RNG as far as ability scores and AC are concerned?

I agree that this isn't perfect, not because of the design principles, but because monsters aren't created very well, or with abilities that meant to be used in player hands. Despite that, I think it's the best compromise I've seen to date on playing actual monsters with all their actual abilities amongst PCs. That, is what I'd like you to consider its merits on. --Ghostwheel (talk) 11:38, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Another point I want to make; first, if this variant were available, would you necessarily be a monster at H and VH levels of balance? If so, then there's a good chance that it might be overpowered, if it eliminates other options from being viable compared to it, though I don't think that's the case. --Ghostwheel (talk) 19:20, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

To answer your initial question, rather than a nerf, you could do a buff. Have it so that odd-leveled monsters don't have a penalty to an ability score.

As far as compromises to have rules for players to play monsters, this generally works well. That lack of ability score changes with size is likely not necessary. Generally, monsters either have powerful abilities or they are big and strong. Taking away the "strong" part makes a Hill Giant seem pretty crappy when compared to a Succubus. If you are worried about the RNG, which may not be something that is very easy to control with this kind of variant rule, you could always translate extra strength to +2 bonus damage per modifier above +4. Something like that. Then at least the hill giant is "strong" in that it hits harder. --Aarnott (talk) 23:35, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I had forgotten about the penalty to attack/AC from size, so I think +2 to str per size category would be good.

Regarding the buff instead of penalty... most people don't use EVERY one of the ability scores, so I'd rather remove one of the +2s from the monster (or both? Not sure how much +1 CR is worth) than simply eliminate the penalty completely from the other one. --Ghostwheel (talk) 11:11, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't just talking about size penalties, although it is definitely good that you changed it to account for that. I'm talking about the fact that there is a whole monster archetype of being a big brute that hits hard. The hill giant is going to have 22 strength with an 18 to start, which, to me, seems underwhelming for the level investment. I did pick that example because it is basically strictly worse than an ogre using these rules, however, so it was kinda a dumpster dive for something bad. --Aarnott (talk) 17:14, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Can't help it when people shoot themselves intentionally in the leg, especially when mechanically-equal options that let you do the same thing exist.

Most often, when people want to play a creature, it's less the pure numbers (unless they're purely powergaming, at which point you're probably better off not having this) and more the actual abilities. Mind flayers eat brains and mindblast for 4d4 rounds. Succubi can charm at will and drain energy. This variant lets you do that without unbalancing the game TOO much. I can't help much where you go with it from there, but I think it's the least of all the evils I've seen thus far on the subject.

Any further ideas on what kind of penalties to give people with even CR? --Ghostwheel (talk) 17:38, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

An idea popped up; what if each level of non-class gave you an additional boost? This would include a stacking +1 enhancement bonus to natural armor (max +5) or a +2 enhancement bonus to an ability score of your choice (max +6). This would not stack with the normal items present in the game, and thus would have less of a likelihood to unbalance the game.

Thus the succubus in the example could have +6 Charisma and +1 Natural Armor, while the Hill Giant in your example could have +6 Strength and +2 Constitution or somesuch. Whato do you think? --Ghostwheel (talk) 17:45, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

That works really well. Then the giant is always strong, even without equipment. You might even be able to sneak in a difference between odd/even CR monsters here. Even CR monsters wouldn't get the last boost. --Aarnott (talk) 17:59, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

How's that look?

Also, it doesn't make enough of a difference, since the even-CR creature would get the same equivalent bonus. Any other ideas on penalties to give it? Perhaps a combination of lowered ability bonuses at first level, and forgoing the last ability bonus? Still not sure that would be enough though... --Ghostwheel (talk) 20:27, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

It looks good to me :). I don't have any good ideas for the even/odd issue. It's tricky. In theory, based on what CR is supposed to mean, +2 CR = double the power. If we make an equation out of it where PowerRatio = 2^((cr1 - cr2)/2), then +1 level would be a multiplier in power of 2^0.5, or ~40% stronger. I'm not sure if that is meaningful in this case, but maybe it will help you figure out some way to balance it... --Aarnott (talk) 22:15, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

→Reverted indentation to one colon

If we remove the ability score bonuses entirely (the ones at level 1), do you think that would balance it out? --Ghostwheel (talk) 22:24, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Alternatively, what if they took a -2 penalty on the last level to all DCs, CLs, and attacks made with the abilities of the monstrous abilities? (And perhaps made large monsters have an additional -1 penalty to ACs and attacks.) --Ghostwheel (talk) 20:21, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Another option--every 4 levels after taking the last HD in an odd-CR monster, you get the benefits of another HD bonus (effectively +gold for your character from a meta-perspective). Not sure if this would balance it out, thoughts? --Ghostwheel (talk) 22:12, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

All of these feel a bit clunky, although they certainly could work. It's a bit hard to call balance on things when finding examples of monsters of an even CR to compare to an odd CR and then balance what they should turn out like is pretty tricky. Most of the cases I've tried considering, even CRs don't really have much benefit over odd CRs. It's not like the designers actually put level-appropriate effects for each CR. And as much as I've tried to look at this in a vacuum, it really isn't possible. There's gotta be some sort of standard to look at to determine just how much better an extra CR is.

Instead, I was thinking of another way to look at the problem. The whole system you have here is basically designed to require some level investment in racial HD and stagger out the racial traits so that they are (supposed to be) level-appropriate. If we assume that all the monsters are actually given level-appropriate abilities to their CR, the solution seems pretty simple to me. Just like you have all the strongest/highest level abilities on the last odd level for an odd-leveled monster race, you can just add one more level of getting abilities for the even-leveled monster granted at the same time as a class level. Example:

Minotaur Level Progression

Level	Hit Dice	Abilities Gained
1	1d8	Darkvision, Scent, HD Bonus
2	As per class chosen	As per class chosen
3	1d8	HD Bonus, Natural Cunning, Powerful Charge
4	As per class chosen	As per class chosen, Large Size

Thoughts? --Aarnott (talk) 19:25, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

That's how it works as-is. The problem is that the minotaur gets more bang for its buck, despite having the same "price" (racial HD "paid") as the ogre. Thus, the minotaur is always a better option than the ogre. See how the succubus gains its racial abilities even at the levels when they don't get a racial HD--it already works that way. The three suggestions above are there to cancel out that advantage. --Ghostwheel (talk) 19:52, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Went with option #3--better to give a buff than a nerf, methinks. --Ghostwheel (talk) 20:16, 16 June 2014 (UTC)