Talk:Better Counterspelling (3.5e Variant Rule)

Playtesting Note

Ghostwheel had the following idea in chat:

<Ghostwheel> Could be *noddish* Perhaps make it a CL check, both sides getting a bonus equal to 2x the spell level spent? <Ghostwheel> That way duskblades can be decent too, even with lower-level spells

I think right now that's making it too hard for the attacker as they already have to draw line of effect through them in the first place and hit the spell with the attack of opportunity, but it might be an appropriate idea. That's something whose answer will come out in playtesting. Surgo 16:19, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

Decent? That's +20+10 vs. +20+18 we're talking about as a baseline case. If it was plus one time the spell level, it could work.

Either way works, but without that doubling you'll notice that the only difference between a sixth-level spell being countered by a first-level spell is only +5 against being countered. I personally don't think you should be able to counter a sixth-level spell with a first-level spell, period, especially with how wide the RNG is on opposed checks (1-20 rather than 1-10 when using set DCs). --Ghostwheel 20:27, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

That basically means duskblades (level 5) shouldn't pretend to be able to counter anyone else (level 9) - it's a difference only 1 level smaller than the one that "ought to be entirely insurmountable".

Dispel Action

Does dispel use an AoO and an immediate action, or just the immediate? - TarkisFlux 22:37, July 16, 2010 (UTC)

Just immediate. Surgo 01:24, July 17, 2010 (UTC)

New Feat

I like these rules, so I made a new feat for them. It's not scaling, but I think it's a pretty solid one anyway. Feel free to make suggestions, including "that sucks, and you should get rid of it". It's your subsystem after all. - TarkisFlux 00:30, July 18, 2010 (UTC)

Issues

I have some issues with this method of counterspelling:

• The bigger you are, the better you are at placing yourself to counter spells.
• Wielding a reach weapon makes you better at counterspelling.
• Attack rolls usually quickly outpace DCs.
  • Level 20 clerics should easily be able to have full BAB + 10 str + 5 magic weapon, which shuts down casters with +2 DCs from feats and a +14 ability modifier.

It's a cool idea, but it seems to have some weird flavor and possibly poor mechanics at high levels. --Andrew Arnott (talk, email) 22:06, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Rating

Eiji-kun is neutral on this article and rated it 2 of 4.

I like this, I really do. So why not a like? Well there are a few fiddly bits... such as the fact that even with poor BAB you'll almost always hit the AC/DC of the spell to attempt a counterspell, which may be intentional (since then you need the dispel check, I think) but is basically easy. There's also the matter of casters getting in an endless series of counters against each other, which is actually cool but also would quickly negate both of them while the battle raged. Then again, this isn't a BAD thing, it certainly changes tactics and promotes fighters to hunt down enemy casters so their own big cannon can fire. The immediate dispel is problematic in that sorcerers easily become dispelling machines, to the point where they might be TOO good. It inspires me to make some Rapid Dispel spells though... Anyway, this variant rule brings up a few issues while removing others. I find it an awesome idea, but ultimately a horizontal change. I really do enjoy the image of two wizards locked in duels though, using AoOs to keep each other at bay. Quicken is suddenly more important overall, as well as arcane spellsurge.