Talk:Hare (3.5e Class)

Boxing

Monk flurry isn't Two-Weapon Fighting; in fact, you can't two-weapon fight using unarmed strikes as both primary and off-hand weapons since they're the same weapon. --Ghostwheel 06:38, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

i think this is referencing pathfinder rules, with Beast shape and FOB--NameViolation 10:00, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

You can TWF using unarmed strikes as both primary and off-hand, this was mentioned by official sources (the Sage) at least every other month during the lifespan of 3.5 Surgo 13:37, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

RAW you can't. Otherwise, why can't you multi-weapon fight with unarmed strikes? How many weapons is an unarmed strike? One per arm? You can still use unarmed strikes while wielding a two-handed weapon. The Sage might have the right idea, but it is RAI, not RAW. --Andrew Arnott (talk, email) 16:29, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

NV had the right idea. My class was originally created for the Pathfinder system, in which the Monk's flurry is based on the TWF tree. And yes, as per the Sage you can TWF with unarmed attacks, basically gaining an additional unarmed attack at the usual penalty for light/natural weapons. However, as this is site is focused on 3.5, I will probably just change the hare to use the Monk's normal flurry attack progression out of the PH. (Real Sorceror 22:56, June 17, 2010 (UTC))

Balance

The presence of UMD would probably push this class into the rogue level of balance. Everything else together might make this fighter-level--though a case could be made for monk-level, I suppose. Still, monk-level classes don't usually get the boost to AC based on speed (which can get pretty high) or the extra damage from Crash. --Ghostwheel 06:39, June 17, 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the skill section isn't complete yet, and that UMD will not show on the list when they are cut. Right now I'd put an imcomplete tag on it because of this, but I'm sure it will be completed within a week, and anybody who reads closely will figure out what skills are good and which are not.

It still needs a little retooling, but I'll have that finished by tomorrow easy. (Real Sorceror 22:55, June 17, 2010 (UTC))

Ok, I believe I have everything how I want it, and the epic progression is done as well. If anything else looks off let me know. (Real Sorceror 00:18, June 19, 2010 (UTC))

So, planning on changing the balance point or redoing the class in any way? --Ghostwheel 23:08, June 26, 2010 (UTC)

Pretty sure I'm done with this one. I do some playtesting in on it within the next month, so if any glaringly bad shows up I'll come back to it. (Real Sorceror 03:57, June 28, 2010 (UTC))

Just a note, UMD is a pretty bad for for monk level stuff. It's a substantial power boost, and you should strongly consider removing it if you intended the class to be in monk level. - TarkisFlux 04:35, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

If you're fairly sure you're done, could you update the balance level? Between UMD, the rogue talent it's arguably rogue-level, though I could see an argument being made for it being fighter-level. --Ghostwheel 07:35, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry for being a plebeian here, but what does "UMD" stand for? I'm not familiar with that term.

Use Magic Device. The skill is useful as it gives you effective access to all the neat caster tricks that make casters so powerful (ablit, at a cost of gold). -- Eiji Hyrule 01:42, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, gotcha. Ya I can take that out. Its not really necessary for the class. I usually overlook the power of Use Magic Device since it comes up so rarely in our games. (02:26, July 1, 2010 (UTC))

3.5 or Pathfinder?

There's a number of bits in the ability descriptions here that look like they were made for pathfinder (acrobatics skill, beast shape, etc.). You'll need to convert these back over to their 3.5e counterparts. - TarkisFlux 00:28, June 19, 2010 (UTC)

Ah, my bad. OK, I think its good now. I changed Lagomorph to work like a weak Wild Shape and changed Great Leap to only apply to Jump checks.

Wind Stance and Lightning Stance

March Hare mentions both the above--what are they? --Ghostwheel 07:35, June 28, 2010 (UTC)

That would be some Pathfinder feats. If memory recalls, you move and you get concealment and other nice things, pre-req of Dodge. -- Eiji Hyrule 01:42, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. Thats another thing I forgot to change. Wind Stance grants 20% concealment when you take a move action, while Lighting Stance improves it to 50% when you double move or withdraw. I'll just change the wording to match that instead of granting feats. (Real Sorceror 02:47, July 1, 2010 (UTC))

Ratings

ThunderGod Cid opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.

This is a textbook case of how the inclusion of Use Magic Device can make an otherwise sub-par class passable. This class is a monk at its core, which is probably one of the least flattering comparisons possible. It's a melee class, dependent on bull rushes and such things to deal damage, that has Moderate BAB. That's disgraceful. That aside, all it can do is move around a lot and at higher levels that matters because you gain AC bonuses and/or concealment for movement. Factor in the ability to take 10 on any skill check (another incentive to abuse UMD if you didn't have enough already, and the end result is a character who runs around spamming UMD. Yuck.