Talk:Soul Salvager (3.5e Prestige Class)
Before you get too far
...I should say that while the rest of the class looks ok from a glance, "Restore Vestige (Sp)" is going to be more trouble than it's worth. I don't just mean the fact you'd have to build a statblock for each and every vestige (which is, you know, impossible), the actual concept is kind of a problem. It's an SLA that literally changes how the world works as a setting. Now, I don't mean that high-level spells can't have world changing effects; VH play is full of these things, even ignoring Wish and Miracle. But the thing is, none of those spells are really designed for that kind of stuff. None of them go "and now this game mechanic is removed from the game".
As a DM, I would be mad because the mechanics was my realm, and here is a rule trying to overrule rule 0.
As a player, it seems self-harming to just perma-delete what is effectively one of my spell selections from the universe.
As a concept in the world, it doesn't work out well. I see you took the "clerics mistrust binders" things and ran with it... fine and well, but if the gods are so up in arms about these things they cannot touch because they are not in their realm of influence, and yet there is a spell that exists to make them live again... well, the various gods of magic who have a de-facto mastery over all spells that exist would have a field day.
But if my fluff arguments are not enough to sway you, consider the following mechanical issues.
Not all vestiges are created equal. You range from mundane gnomes who happened to be good at engineering and regular monks, to literal gods and elder evils. Chupoclops alone would start Ragnarok, nevermind homebrew things like Biokaryota (instantly replaces the entire universe), Ysmir (you die as Ysmir immediately tries to take you through the wall), or Melusine (time is now instantly SNAFU). Nevermind Pants, which would give you pants.
Oh, and it doesn't help that a lot of vestiges aren't particularly stand-up gentlemen either.
The range is so huge, so extreme, that you cannot possibly balance this. I didn't even include Orthos, who by definition is vague, indistinct, and doesn't really exist. What will he come up as, wind? At the very least, there is one vestige you could never restore. You would try to restore The Shadow... but what if The Shadow found out?
Because of this, I felt it necessary to warn you just what you're in for now, so you can try and work this out ahead of time. There is a usable idea in there somehow, but just restoring vestiges probably isn't the way to go. Summoning temporary avatars of them might work, though again you are subject to their wildly variant power levels. And being temporary and just a reflection of what they are at least gives you the excuse to play with their power levels, and why some of them don't destroy everything instantly forever.
Do you see the problems inherent in the system? -- Eiji-kun (talk) 12:54, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, I do, and I've addressed them. Restore Vestige is, in fact, subject to Rule 0. The DM can refuse to allow it to work, and if a soul salvager insists on trying it, well, rocks fall, he dies. The temporary avatar thing is also a good idea. However, you have to keep in mind that the soul salvager's objective is to undermine pact magic by taking their vestiges away. But doing that requires him to study and utilize pact magic himself. He went into pact magic for the explicit purpose of dismantling the system, which is why other binders hate him. And the main thing that would keep gods of magic from doing this is probably not wanting to touch that heretical stuff with a 100-foot-pole. Could you imagine a god being a binder? The other gods would try to tear him apart!
- Indeed, the gods probably don't even think restoring vestiges is a particularly smart idea, as there are, in fact, several vestiges who would probably cause a whole lot of trouble if they were restored. You already mentioned Chupoclops causing Ragnarok — yes, that's exactly what would happen, meaning that someone would have to put it down again (returning it to vestigedom) before the multiverse got utterly trashed. Nice job breaking it, hero. And then there's Acererak, who was the BBEG of the Tomb of Horrors module. Do you really think he wouldn't start that sh*t up all over again once he got restored to undeath? Again, nice job breaking it, hero. This isn't even getting into the fact that several vestiges could cause an uproar among the gods if they ever returned to life (restoring Savnok, for instance, would be a great way to piss off Heironius and Hextor, and restoring Shax would likely piss off every single god worshipped by giants). And, yes, Orthos and The Shadow would be nearly impossible to restore, as getting a suitable body would be a monumental feat — seriously, how would you even begin? Really, when trying to restore a vestige, you're going to have to ask yourself, "Do I really want to do this?" --Luigifan18 (talk) 16:17, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- This is a terrible way for an ability to work. Abilities are defined, and should not require by their very nature rule 0. --Ghostwheel (talk) 16:27, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah, I know. I just felt it wasn't fair to go on about how the soul salvager's ultimate goal is to rescue the vestiges, and how as his power grows, the vestiges come to trust him, without eventually giving the soul salvager the ability to actually make good on his promises. You'll notice that the class feature is gained at class level 20. Since this is a prestige class, you can't take your 11th level in it until you're an epic character; class level 11 has to be at least character level 21. Which means that class level 20 has to be at least character level 30. --Luigifan18 (talk) 19:02, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- Most vestiges are not sentient enough to be rescued, or wanting rescue. They are not just trapped outside reality, most of them are literally just vestige of what they were. They are just shadows of things that used to exist but now no longer, they are not singular entities and this shadow can be bound by multiple people at the same time. I did notice it was character level 30th, which is still not an excuse for such a setting changing abilities. --Leziad (talk) 19:26, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
Feat Prerequisite
Like the anima mage, I want the soul salvager to have a feat prerequisite. However, I don't have any idea what that feat or group of feats should be. Having it be a metamagic feat would probably be a little too similar to the anima mage. A vestige-based feat could make for a too-narrow list of options, not to mention that they don't have a feat type of their own (actually, I think I should make one). As for divine feats, that's the one I'm most strongly considering, but since they're tied specifically to turn undead, that cuts out everything but clerics and paladins, and I'd like for this class to be available to other religion-based divine spellcasters, such as bishops. (I don't care as much about nature-based divine spellcasters, like druids and rangers, because that's not the sort of "divine" I'm going for here; the soul salvager is much moreso about religion.) Anyways, I'd like some suggestions on what feat or group of feats to use as a prerequisite. Thanks! --Luigifan18 (talk) 18:59, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- You could use willing influence. --Leziad (talk) 19:26, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
General Comments
Here a rundown on issues I found not related to the epic capstone"
- Acclimate Vestige give too high numbers, +4 is already a lot. Nevermind +12 from doing it four times.
- Unbind Vestige: Is too complex, make it like all or nothing with a dispel magic-like check. Make it divine spell only, using other reosurces for that isn't super good. Right now it so complex no one will ever use it.
That pretty much it from what I can see. --Leziad (talk) 19:31, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
