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→On Save Effects
::::::So is "do nothing at all, and also take a bunch of penalties, and you can't heal this away" vs. "move only for a few rounds, or get a heal", which more than covers the range differences. I'd call 1 round of dance too much, but multiple rounds of nauseated that you can work around does not seem a big deal. And all of the SoD with secondary effect comparisons I was making were lower level, which further suggests its acceptability at this level. - [[User:Tarkisflux|Tarkisflux]] <sup>[[User talk:Tarkisflux|Talk]]</sup> 16:51, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
:::::::A few other VH comparisons are ''finger of death'' and ''trap the soul'' (levels 7 and 8 respectively), and while the former does 3d6+CL damage on a successful save (at admittedly a spell level lower than ''gutwrench'') the latter has no secondary effect, seemingly in exchange for DC increases to make the primary effect much more likely. Both of these spells are also Close Range, which is definitely a concession I would be willing to make as far as toning down the spell's power (and potentially making its overall strength more in line with comparable VH spells) goes.
:::::::I would very much like to preserve the nausea effect if possible, since as Tarkis has pointed out very few spells (only stinking cloud from the SRD, it would seem) carry such an effect. Given the single target nature, the not-so-debilitating nature of nausea as a condition, and the level of the spell, reducing the range to Close and the nausea duration to 1d4+1 rounds seems a fair compromise to me. - [[User:ThunderGod Cid|TG Cid]] ([[User talk:ThunderGod Cid|talk]]) 23:01, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
