Talk:Gutwrench (3.5e Spell)

Ratings

	Ghostwheel dislikes this article and rated it 1 of 4.
	While the power might very well be in line with VH-level spells at level 8, I personally dislike the presence of counterplay here.

	Eiji-kun opposes this article and rated it 0 of 4.
	Save vs still lose can still work, as long as the "still lose" isn't worth an 8th level spell of its own. Which it is. If they don't die, they may as well be dead when nausated. (EDIT 1-9-15: As time passes, this spell just continues to sour on me. You really can do better than this.)

Is nausea really worth an 8, though? WotC decided that stinking cloud, which nauseates everyone in a big area for a reasonable duration (1d4+1 rounds), on a failed save admittedly, was only a level 3 spell. Not to mention that you have to keep saving against that spell. So would a single-target, one round/level nausea effect really justify a level 8 spell when a it's countered by a level 6 spell in heal? That's not to say that enemies would necessarily have access to heal, but just in terms of comparing spell level I think 8 would be a bit much for said nausea effect. - TG Cid (talk) 19:01, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Its true that there's not much difference between 1d4+1 rounds and 1 round/lvl functionally, but that isn't the actual danger here. With the initial die removed, it's a single target no save stinking cloud, so only immunity will help. Except it doesn't, since you still get a full blast out of it anyway (only single target but still full). Is a lack of save and a full-blast on immunity worth 5 levels? Maybe, I'm sure it gets close. -- Eiji-kun (talk) 19:18, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

	Foxwarrior is neutral on this article and rated it 2 of 4.
	Oh, just another kill spell.

On Save Effects

Since it's being talked about in ratings, let's talk about it down here too.

First of all, let's put nauseated into context. It is a worse for the target version of slow, you can't take standard actions and don't have a low level spell available to end it (you need heal), but you also don't suffer random penalties on top of everything else. At low levels, that really hurts, but at this level in a VH game nauseated isn't actually a death sentence because swift actions and quickened spellcasting, but it is still a pretty big hit. Unfortunately, the only spell that actually applies nauseated is Stinking Cloud, so everything up here is just extension and argument. Joy!

Anyway, assuming we can use the Spells that Kill People list as probable VH spells (and this whole thing falls apart if we can't), we have some comparisons to make. Maze is no save remove a guy from the fight for 10 min or until they succeed on an Int check, but you can't actually kill them during that time so it's not really relevant. PW:Stun is no save stun for up to 4d4 rounds with a pile of ways to reduce the effect or be immune. Irresistable dance is 'do nothing and also take a bunch of extra penalties for 1d4+1 rounds' and seems like the best comparison to nauseated's "move action only". That gives you a few rounds to actually kill the person, like a few rounds of a nauseated would in a lower balance game. Given that comparison, I find myself agreeing with Eiji that the nauseated is too long, and could probably be dropped to a couple of rounds. It's not like heal is going to be uncommon at this level anyway, so anything longer than a few rounds is likely a waste.

And while I'd like to support this as an evocation spell, the most obvious fluff reference is TK. Which is Trans, because everyone hates evocation. Consider this a request to change the fluff or the school. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 04:40, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

I am OK with changing the secondary effect to a shorter duration, since the initial SoD is the part of the spell that really counts, but I don't feel like I see what about the fluff needs to be change to make it Evo rather than Trans. - TG Cid (talk) 05:42, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

It was the grabbing and pulling flourish really which suggested telekinesis (trans), rather than a squeezing force effect like one of the hand spells (evocation). It's a very minor thing and I'm not sure why I tossed it in at the end. Going to go with tired. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 06:05, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

1 round would be the max IMO on a successful saving throw. --Ghostwheel (talk) 13:18, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Do you have a VH comparison to back that up? Because I'm pretty sure you can afford 1d4+1 like irresistible dance given the limited penalty of nauseated at this level, and because you have single target SoDs with secondary effects at lower levels anyway. Dead or nauseated for a couple of rounds may be worse than dead or damage on save, but it's higher level and should be. Dead or nauseated for 1 round isn't much worse, and isn't worth an 8 at VH IMO. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 15:43, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Touch vs. Medium range is huge. --Ghostwheel (talk)

So is "do nothing at all, and also take a bunch of penalties, and you can't heal this away" vs. "move only for a few rounds, or get a heal", which more than covers the range differences. I'd call 1 round of dance too much, but multiple rounds of nauseated that you can work around does not seem a big deal. And all of the SoD with secondary effect comparisons I was making were lower level, which further suggests its acceptability at this level. - Tarkisflux ^Talk 16:51, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

A few other VH comparisons are finger of death and trap the soul (levels 7 and 8 respectively), and while the former does 3d6+CL damage on a successful save (at admittedly a spell level lower than gutwrench) the latter has no secondary effect, seemingly in exchange for DC increases to make the primary effect much more likely. Both of these spells are also Close Range, which is definitely a concession I would be willing to make as far as toning down the spell's power (and potentially making its overall strength more in line with comparable VH spells) goes.

I would very much like to preserve the nausea effect if possible, since as Tarkis has pointed out very few spells (only stinking cloud from the SRD, it would seem) carry such an effect. Given the single target nature, the not-so-debilitating nature of nausea as a condition, and the level of the spell, reducing the range to Close and the nausea duration to 1d4+1 rounds seems a fair compromise to me. - TG Cid (talk) 23:01, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

You might also want to reduce the damage if they're immune to nausea. Maybe 5d6? - Tarkisflux ^Talk 08:42, 4 April 2014 (UTC)